Network Plan Advice

[Zerxal]

This is a continuation of a previous thread I made a few months ago as I have refined a few things.

 

Mainly in this, I'd just like feedback and/or advice on whether this will work and be a good system.

 

To preface, the main reason for me doing this is due to my xFi pods having spotty WiFi calling and many dropouts. We also cannot control 2.4 or 5 GHz bands since we use these pods that variably switch between the two. I've wanted to do this for a while now, and this is just an excuse to do it now.

 

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Image of the network diagram:

 

Coax goes into a ARRIS Modem, then into a Unifi Dream Machine pro, then two access points upstairs. One has ethernet, other one runs off MOCA. From the UDM-Pro, a cable runs downstairs to my switch. Two access points are then run off of there, one of them on straight ethernet, one of them using MOCA.

 

I'm only adding the Modem, UDM-Pro, and the 4 AP's. Everything else is already there.

 

In my current setup, I just have a xFi Gateway upstairs since I get 1gbps internet. The ARRIS modem and the UDM would replace the xFi, and the AP's would replace the xFi pods I have currently.

 

--

 

I have a few questions and things I'd like advice on.

 

• Are two UAP-AC-LITE's per floor enough?
  • My house is 4k square feet, and I'm trying to not blow all my budget on just AP's. The $80 price tag on the AP's seem almost too low, so I'm worried that two per floor may not be enough to cover. We also have a brick wall between our dining room where the downstairs switch is, and the main living room.
• Am I able to have a mesh setup if I set all 4 AP's to the same SSID, security, password, etc?
  • With my current xFi pods, when walking between the house, my phone will automatically switch between whichever is closest and/or has the best signal. I'm thinking I could replicate this by just setting all of the AP's to be on the same SSID, but I'm not sure if this would work and if my phone would just get stuck to one and never switch to the closest one.
• If I already have a preexisting AP, am I able to integrate it into this mesh setup even if it's not a UAP-AC-LITE?
  • I currently have UAP‑AC‑LR laying around from some experimenting last year. I'm thinking of integrating this into the setup by putting it downstairs where the widest coverage is needed, but I'm not sure if this would mess up the automatic switching since it has a better range. Would this be fine to put into the mesh along with the AP's, or to only have 3 AP-AC-LITE's and put this UAP-AC-LR as the fourth AP?

 

Many thanks in advance.

[Electronics Wizardy]

49 minutes ago, Zerxal said:

My house is 4k square feet, and I'm trying to not blow all my budget on just AP's. The $80 price tag on the AP's seem almost too low, so I'm worried that two per floor may not be enough to cover. We also have a brick wall between our dining room where the downstairs switch is, and the main living room.

Id probably no nano hd for the better radios, and 4x4 on 5ghz. Its hard to say the exact amount that is needed without testing, but 4 seems about right

 

50 minutes ago, Zerxal said:

With my current xFi pods, when walking between the house, my phone will automatically switch between whichever is closest and/or has the best signal. I'm thinking I could replicate this by just setting all of the AP's to be on the same SSID, but I'm not sure if this would work and if my phone would just get stuck to one and never switch to the closest one.

You may have to setup seamless roaming so they all run on the same channel so calling won't disconnect, but thats the default config.

 

50 minutes ago, Zerxal said:

I currently have UAP‑AC‑LR laying around from some experimenting last year. I'm thinking of integrating this into the setup by putting it downstairs where the widest coverage is needed, but I'm not sure if this would mess up the automatic switching since it has a better range. Would this be fine to put into the mesh along with the AP's, or to only have 3 AP-AC-LITE's and put this UAP-AC-LR as the fourth AP?

Yup you can mix them, I do that at a few locations I use unifi without many issues

[brwainer]

• Are two UAP-AC-LITE's per floor enough?
  • Largely depends on what the walls in your house are made of. If its modern 2x4 and drywall (chalky stuff) then probably sufficient. If it is sheetrock, or something old like lathe and plaster, then maybe not. The problem isn't which type of AP you have in that case, but purely that the signal can't get through so you have to have more units in general. The difference between the AC-Lite and the more expensive models is about features which let individual devices have faster speeds, or more devices be connected at once. If you want more than 100-150Mbps to your clients, then I could recommend moving to the nanoHD, FlexHD, and/or IW-HD APs - they are all equivalent, just different form factors.
• Am I able to have a mesh setup if I set all 4 AP's to the same SSID, security, password, etc?
  • When you set up Unifi, unless you do things funny, all of the SSID(s) you make will be on all APs, and your devices will roam between them. NO MATTER WHAT it is the client devices that decide when to roam, even on your current setup. The only thing you can control, is what Unifi calls "Fast Roaming" which speeds up the handoff from one AP to another, in an attempt to minimize disruption to audio and video calls. Fast Roaming is enabled by default, but some client devices don't play nicely with it. Also there are sometimes issues roaming between the different generations of APs (all of the models with "AC" in their name are Unifi Gen 2, all of ones with "HD" in their name are Unifi Gen 3 - this is a simplification but what is important for you is to stay within one set of devices if you want to ensure roaming will always be smooth)
  • "Mesh" is an overused marketing term, and is not generally used with Ubiquiti. It generally means two things:
    • Ability to use wireless uplinks instead of or in addition to ethernet connections - Unifi has this
    • Support for 802.11k, 802.11r, and 802.11v - Unifi has some of this running all the time, and the rest is what they call Fast Roaming
  • Therefore calling a Unifi setup a mesh is technically correct since the definition is so loose, but really Unifi is not a mesh. Unifi is a group of devices which work together (can be "unified") because they are centrally managed by the Unifi Network Controller software.
• If I already have a preexisting AP, am I able to integrate it into this mesh setup even if it's not a UAP-AC-LITE?
  • Yes, all Unifi APs can coexist in the controller, as long as they are not an EOL model. The UAP-AC-LR is still supported. If you decide to go with the UAP-AC-Lite then I would say use it, but if you do decide to upgrade to NanoHD?FlexHD/IW-HD I would say don't.

[brwainer]

5 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

You may have to setup seamless roaming so they all run on the same channel so calling won't disconnect, but thats the default config.

Zero-Handoff roaming (the setup that required all the APs be on the same channel) is deprecated, and not supported on any of the AC or later APs. The replacement is Fast Roaming, and APs should NOT be running on the same channel when it can be helped.

https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004662107-UniFi-Fast-Roaming#4

[Zerxal]

14 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

Id probably no nano hd for the better radios, and 4x4 on 5ghz. Its hard to say the exact amount that is needed without testing, but 4 seems about right

 

8 minutes ago, brwainer said:

• Are two UAP-AC-LITE's per floor enough?
  • If you want move than 100-150Mbps to your clients, then I could recommend moving to the nanoHD, FlexHD, and/or IW-HD APs - they are all equivalent, just different form factors.

Would a UAP-AC-PRO work as good as the nanoHD's? I'm really trying to stay at-or-below $1k USD. I am trying to get 100-150mbps, if not more.

 

Another question for the both of you. I have Xfinity voice, internet and TV at my house, and I've heard MOCA sometimes doesn't work depending on the frequency or something? I'm planning on using this: https://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-Bonded-Ethernet-Adapter-ECB6200K02/dp/B013J7O3X0/ - would it work?

[Electronics Wizardy]

1 minute ago, Zerxal said:

 

Would a UAP-AC-PRO work as good as the nanoHD's? I'm really trying to stay at-or-below $1k USD. I am trying to get 100-150mbps, if not more.

 

Another question for the both of you. I have Xfinity voice, internet and TV at my house, and I've heard MOCA sometimes doesn't work depending on the frequency or something? I'm planning on using this: https://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-Bonded-Ethernet-Adapter-ECB6200K02/dp/B013J7O3X0/

The pro is a older gen ap, while the nano supports wave 2, and has a better 5ghz antenna setup. If you wanna save money, id swap out the udm pro for something like a cheaper edge router, and run the controller on a cheap pc.

 

also id be tempted to wait a little bit for their wifi 6 access points to come out.

 

 

[Zerxal]

1 minute ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

The pro is a older gen ap, while the nano supports wave 2, and has a better 5ghz antenna setup. If you wanna save money, id swap out the udm pro for something like a cheaper edge router, and run the controller on a cheap pc.

 

also id be tempted to wait a little bit for their wifi 6 access points to come out.

 

 

Any words of wisdom on the MOCA or is that not your field of expertise?

[Electronics Wizardy]

Just now, Zerxal said:

Any words of wisdom on the MOCA or is that not your field of expertise?

never worked with moca. Got cat 5 ran in my house, and hve fibre from the isp.

[Falcon1986]

@Zerxal

 

While the UAP-AP-Pro is a pre-wave 2 device, many have reported that they get better range from the Pro than the Nano-HD. Anything above the Lite handles denser client environments better because they have more antennae.

 

As for MoCA, I don’t have experience with it. My only concern would be for PoE to the UAPs, whether the UniFi controller will recognize them behind the MoCA adapters and if they’ll get full gigabit speed to the UDM-Pro. What model of MoCA adapters do you plan to use? Why not run gigabit ethernet?

 

As for the number of APs, you don’t need to get 4x UAP-AC-Lite to start. Maybe just start with 2 on the upper floor (close to opposite sides of house length) and the LR (centrally-placed) on the ground floor. Add more as you see the need.

[Zerxal]

3 minutes ago, Falcon1986 said:

What model of MoCA adapters do you plan to use? 

I linked it here: https://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-Bonded-Ethernet-Adapter-ECB6200K02/dp/B013J7O3X0/

 

4 minutes ago, Falcon1986 said:

Why not run gigabit ethernet?

Running gigabit ethernet would be a huge pain, it's not really possible in my house. My house was built in 1980, so I'm at least glad I have coax.

 

6 minutes ago, Falcon1986 said:

My only concern would be for PoE to the UAPs, whether the UniFi controller will recognize them behind the MoCA adapters and if they’ll get full gigabit speed to the UDM-Pro.

From a few links, I think it would be fine. It might be messy with moca, then a poe injector, but it seems like, knock on wood, it would work.

 

https://community.ui.com/questions/Best-Practice-for-Unifi-Network-with-MOCA-Bridges/8c050884-063f-47be-bda9-9e0067e16902

 

https://community.ui.com/questions/Ubiquiti-AP-LR-Pro-over-Adaptec-MoCA-Adapters/88ce35a5-5851-4354-9f28-27a23fb0c179

 

9 minutes ago, Falcon1986 said:

As for the number of APs, you don’t need to get 4x UAP-AC-Lite to start. Maybe just start with 2 on the upper floor (close to opposite sides of house length) and the LR (centrally-placed) on the ground floor.

I've tried before with my AP-AC-LR. I put it only downstairs and only my xFi gateway upstairs - it did not work. My house has more square footage on the 1st floor than the second floor, we have a large addon as our main living room space that is 500 sq ft. I'm thinking of hiding an AP behind the TV in the addon where a coax is, and another in our study where the old owners had a TV. Maybe two Pro's downstairs for high bandwidth since we are most of the time down there, then the LR alone upstairs? If the LR isn't enough on its own maybe add a Pro?

 

I can't really centrally place any of the AP's either, they have to be in a room that is in a corner. In the middle of my 1st floor is the kitchen, upstairs the middle is a bathroom.

[brwainer]

52 minutes ago, Zerxal said:

Maybe two Pro's downstairs for high bandwidth since we are most of the time down there, then the LR alone upstairs? If the LR isn't enough on its own maybe add a Pro?

You could try this. It isn't a bad start.

 

53 minutes ago, Zerxal said:

I linked it here: https://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-Bonded-Ethernet-Adapter-ECB6200K02/dp/B013J7O3X0/

Get the MoCA 2.5 units, MoCA 2.5 is a decent upgrade over 2.0, and they are cheaper. The only compatibility issues I’ve heard of with MoCA was the 1.0 version, it conflicted with stuff that some cable companies used. The other thing that conflicts with MoCA is satellite TV, but you don’t have that.

[Zerxal]

8 minutes ago, brwainer said:

You could try this. It isn't a bad start.

How much better speeds can I expect from four nanohd’s compared to four AP ac pros?

 

15 minutes ago, brwainer said:

Get the MoCA 2.5 units, MoCA 2.5 is a decent upgrade over 2.0, and they are cheaper. The only compatibility issues I’ve heard of with MoCA was the 1.0 version, it conflicted with stuff that some cable companies used. The other thing that conflicts with MoCA is satellite TV, but you don’t have that.

This? https://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-Bonded-Ethernet-Adapter-ECB6200K02/dp/B013J7O3X0/

[brwainer]

17 minutes ago, Zerxal said:

How much better speeds can I expect from four nanohd’s compared to four AP ac pros?

 

This? https://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-Bonded-Ethernet-Adapter-ECB6200K02/dp/B013J7O3X0/

https://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-Bonded-Ethernet-Adapter-ECB6200K02/dp/B088KV2YYL/?th=1&psc=1
 

As for nanoHD vs AC-Pro, it will depend on how many clients you have that are MU-MIMO capable, and how many client devices would connect to each AP. If less than 8-10 clients per AP, then probably not a noticeable difference.

[Zerxal]

33 minutes ago, brwainer said:

https://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-Bonded-Ethernet-Adapter-ECB6200K02/dp/B088KV2YYL/?th=1&psc=1
 

As for nanoHD vs AC-Pro, it will depend on how many clients you have that are MU-MIMO capable, and how many client devices would connect to each AP. If less than 8-10 clients per AP, then probably not a noticeable difference.

It would be less than 8-10 per AP, definitely.

 

It’s $120 more to get 4x nano’s than 4x pro’s. I’ll ask, in your own opinion, do you think it’s worth it out of pure future proofing to pay that extra $120 for the nano’s?

[brwainer]

10 minutes ago, Zerxal said:

It would be less than 8-10 per AP, definitely.

 

It’s $120 more to get 4x nano’s than 4x pro’s. I’ll ask, in your own opinion, do you think it’s worth it out of pure future proofing to pay that extra $120 for the nano’s?

If you want to save money go with the AC Lite. If you want anything more than that, the AC Pro is not a good value in my opinion and you should go with the NanoHD. If you can wait 3-9 months, the Unifi Wifi 6 APs are looking very good, and once they are out even price-conscious shoppers shouldn’t buy the older ones (unless prices change from what we are seeing now - but I have technically already said more than I should given the terms of the Early Access agreement).

[Zerxal]

13 minutes ago, brwainer said:

If you want to save money go with the AC Lite. If you want anything more than that, the AC Pro is not a good value in my opinion and you should go with the NanoHD. If you can wait 3-9 months, the Unifi Wifi 6 APs are looking very good, and once they are out even price-conscious shoppers shouldn’t buy the older ones (unless prices change from what we are seeing now - but I have technically already said more than I should given the terms of the Early Access agreement).

Yeah, sadly I cannot wait 3-9 months as this is needed for our holiday decorations smart equipment.

 

And thank you for the info on the NanoHD, I’ll take that into consideration when purchasing.

[Zerxal]

@brwainer

Do you think a single nanoHD could cover a 1000 sq ft floor?

[brwainer]

56 minutes ago, Zerxal said:

@brwainer

Do you think a single nanoHD could cover a 1000 sq ft floor?

In a completely open area sure, but in an average house, no. There isn't a single AP or router that could cover that with 5GHz. And remember half of wifi is the AP shouting at your phone, and the other half is your phone whispering to the AP. Coverage is usually limited by the radio/antenna in the client devices. Your devices showing that they have "high" signal strength doesn't mean you will have a good experience. The Unifi controller will show you the signal strength at which the APs are receiving your clients transmissions, which is more important.

[Falcon1986]

@Zerxal

 

I don't have any personal experience using them, but the BeaconHD access points can be used to "fill in" areas of poor WiFi coverage if you already have other UniFi access points nearby. All it requires is a power outlet; no need to run ethernet. But keep in mind that you won't be able to get full speed compared to a dedicated AP as some bandwidth is consumed for AP-to-AP communication.

 

Have you considered consulting a firm that can provide you with a plan after on-site inspection?

[Zerxal]

Just now, Falcon1986 said:

@Zerxal

 

I don't have any personal experience using them, but the BeaconHD access points can be used to "fill in" areas of poor WiFi coverage if you already have other UniFi access points nearby. All it requires is a power outlet; no need to run ethernet. But keep in mind that you won't be able to get full speed compared to a dedicated AP as some bandwidth is consumed for AP-to-AP communication.

 

Have you considered consulting a firm that can provide you with a plan after on-site inspection?

It's just for my house - it would be a waste of money. I'm purely doing this out of self-interest, I'm not even sure if I want to do this now since it will cost me over $1400.

 

1 hour ago, brwainer said:

In a completely open area sure, but in an average house, no. There isn't a single AP or router that could cover that with 5GHz. And remember half of wifi is the AP shouting at your phone, and the other half is your phone whispering to the AP. Coverage is usually limited by the radio/antenna in the client devices. Your devices showing that they have "high" signal strength doesn't mean you will have a good experience. The Unifi controller will show you the signal strength at which the APs are receiving your clients transmissions, which is more important.

I mean, what speeds could I expect with the lite's? ~50mbps?

[brwainer]

28 minutes ago, Zerxal said:

I mean, what speeds could I expect with the lite's? ~50mbps?

With good signal strength and the bandwidth set to 40MHz you should be able to get 150-200Mb/s on 5GHz. But signal strength on 5GHz drops off quickly when dealing with walls. That’s why I said if you want to go any higher than the Lite, go all the way to NanoHD - because the Lites aren’t bad.

[Zerxal]

32 minutes ago, brwainer said:

With good signal strength and the bandwidth set to 40MHz you should be able to get 150-200Mb/s on 5GHz. But signal strength on 5GHz drops off quickly when dealing with walls. That’s why I said if you want to go any higher than the Lite, go all the way to NanoHD - because the Lites aren’t bad.

Any ideas on the signal strength with normal 2.4? 50-100mbps?

[brwainer]

26 minutes ago, Zerxal said:

Any ideas on the signal strength with normal 2.4? 50-100mbps?

With 2,4GHz signal strength stops being as important as interference. Could be 50-100Mbps, could be 150Mbps, could be 40Mbps.