Thoughts on Integral NVMe?

[ftahir192]

I've been looking at this NVMe ssd drive from Integral, based on Phison E12:

 

https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/product/32jNnQ/integral-ultimapro-x2-960-gb-m2-2280-nvme-solid-state-drive-inssd960gm280nupx2

 

It's much cheaper than its competitors with good read/write speads and surprisingly high reliability metrics.

 

Does anybody have any experience with the brand, good or bad? Is this genuinely a good deal or is it a "you get what you pay for" scenario? Looking at the specs I haven't been able to see anything majorly wrong.

[Jurrunio]

This SSD is too new for any reviews so I won't risk my data on it, even if the brand is well known (and it isn't)

[ftahir192]

8 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

This SSD is too new for any reviews so I won't risk my data on it, even if the brand is well known (and it isn't)

Is it worth spending extra on something like a 970 evo compared to an Adata or WD blue NVMe SSD?

[Jurrunio]

11 minutes ago, ftahir192 said:

Is it worth spending extra on something like a 970 evo compared to an Adata or WD blue NVMe SSD?

PCIe 3.0 x4 models, aside from the Adata SX8200 Pro (new batches seems to use UNIX packaged NAND with pretty high failure rates) but other TLC SSDs with DRAM are better deals than the 970 Evo. WD Blue SSDs are SATA while SN550 is PCIe 3.0 x2.

 

Of course, for most people (including gamers) SATA SSDs do things just as well as PCIe 3.0 x4 drives, even loading games rarely exceed 300MB/s while SATA SSDs often do over 500MB/s read

[ftahir192]

3 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

PCIe 3.0 x4 models, aside from the Adata SX8200 Pro (new batches seems to use UNIX packaged NAND with pretty high failure rates) but other TLC SSDs with DRAM are better deals than the 970 Evo. WD Blue SSDs are SATA while SN550 is PCIe 3.0 x2.

 

Of course, for most people (including gamers) SATA SSDs do things just as well as PCIe 3.0 x4 drives, even loading games rarely exceed 300MB/s while SATA SSDs often do over 500MB/s read

Yeah I was referring to the SN550 here sorry. Do you have some examples of what might be better to spend money on than the 970 Evo?

[Jurrunio]

23 minutes ago, ftahir192 said:

Yeah I was referring to the SN550 here sorry. Do you have some examples of what might be better to spend money on than the 970 Evo?

Silicon Power P34A80, HP EX950, WD SN750, Seagate Firecuda 510 and Corsair MP510.

[Juular]

2 hours ago, Jurrunio said:

aside from the Adata SX8200 Pro (new batches seems to use UNIX packaged NAND with pretty high failure rates)

UNIX packaged ... chips ?

[Jurrunio]

14 minutes ago, Juular said:

UNIX packaged ... chips ?

Actually UNIC, not UNIX. I mixed them up

[NewMaxx]

It has a shorter warranty than most other E12 drives, but otherwise it should be fine.

[ftahir192]

36 minutes ago, NewMaxx said:

It has a shorter warranty than most other E12 drives, but otherwise it should be fine.

Are E12 drives normally reliable? What about firmware updates - I assume this differs between companies

[NewMaxx]

There are universal firmware updates for E12-based drives, although in general firmware is not a big issue in my opinion. There was an early update that made for more consistent performance but that was last year, any new drive will be updated. These drives generally use the same hardware although the E12 has gone through some revisions but I'd rather not get into that - although as pictured, this drive uses the original layout. Reliability is generally good for these drives.

[ftahir192]

Just now, NewMaxx said:

There are universal firmware updates for E12-based drives, although in general firmware is not a big issue in my opinion. There was an early update that made for more consistent performance but that was last year, any new drive will be updated. These drives generally use the same hardware although the E12 has gone through some revisions but I'd rather not get into that - although as pictured, this drive uses the original layout. Reliability is generally good for these drives.

Okay I think I'll go for it then, thanks. I'm normally sceptical when some things are just too cheap and I don't know an awful lot about NVMe drives and reliability. Am I losing out on anything here vs say a 970 Evo Pro, besides warranty?

[NewMaxx]

You can check my resources here if you want to do more research. Reliability is a difficult metric to measure for a variety of reasons. I mean, the flash itself will likely be reliable. The controller is used all over and is fairly reliable. The quality of the components is usually similar since these are BOM (bill of materials) drives often assembled in the same location. The support system of the company and warranty are probably more worthy of focus in that regard.

 

I do think Samsung is often heralded as the "gold standard" with SSDs and the 970 EVO Plus is a fantastic drive. I don't think it's inherently a ton more reliable than other NVMe drives, though, but the support is very good which makes for satisfied customers.

[ftahir192]

1 minute ago, NewMaxx said:

You can check my resources here if you want to do more research. Reliability is a difficult metric to measure for a variety of reasons. I mean, the flash itself will likely be reliable. The controller is used all over and is fairly reliable. The quality of the components is usually similar since these are BOM (bill of materials) drives often assembled in the same location. The support system of the company and warranty are probably more worthy of focus in that regard.

 

I do think Samsung is often heralded as the "gold standard" with SSDs and the 970 EVO Plus is a fantastic drive. I don't think it's inherently a ton more reliable than other NVMe drives, though, but the support is very good which makes for satisfied customers.

Okay, thanks. I've got a decision to make here then I guess. I've never actually had a drive fail on me yet (touchwood) and I do back up my important files regularly.

[NewMaxx]

Assuming you understand your motherboard/system support for NVMe and how to install it, generally speaking you shouldn't have any issues. Once it's installed it's pretty much done. SSDs as a whole are prone to data loss/corruption due to things like power loss, that's just the nature of storage and write caching, however current consumer drives are better in that regard for a variety of reasons (e.g. SLC caching). Flash will last forever and the controller is silicon - it's literally a microprocessor, which is not something that just breaks. In fact it's an ARM microcontroller which are used in billions of devices reliably.

[ftahir192]

1 minute ago, NewMaxx said:

Assuming you understand your motherboard/system support for NVMe and how to install it, generally speaking you shouldn't have any issues. Once it's installed it's pretty much done. SSDs as a whole are prone to data loss/corruption due to things like power loss, that's just the nature of storage and write caching, however current consumer drives are better in that regard for a variety of reasons (e.g. SLC caching). Flash will last forever and the controller is silicon - it's literally a microprocessor, which is not something that just breaks. In fact it's an ARM microcontroller which are used in billions of devices reliably.

So most defects would be due to manufacturing issues, assuming I'm not a moron during the installation and don't touch it once installed, basically?

[NewMaxx]

They're fairly robust devices so basically, yes. I mean for example the standoff corroded in my one laptop where I have a NVMe drive installed and...I just let it hang. Really, the case is plastic, it's not going anywhere. These are solid state devices. They're inherently reliable outside the bathtub curve - early failures and late failures are most common. Assuming you handle and install them correctly and don't run them in an unstable system.

 

Manufacturing defects are of course possible, albeit unlikely. A company will say: we want a PCB with the E12, DRAM, and this flash, make 1000 of them and charge us for components + labor. That's basically BOM, and the Phison E12 is used by literally dozens of companies in this manner. In some markets this can be sketchy (e.g. Asia) but Integral is a known brand actually. But I'm getting off-topic...in general I would not be uncomfortable using that drive.

 

FYI you can check the SMART data on receiving it and I also have utilities to identify the components and flash if need be, although I feel it's unnecessary. I certainly appreciate that some people want to see reviews of the drive first but in general E12 drives are reliable and I've worked with Integral before, it's not fly-by-night, they've been making memory products for over 20 years.

[ftahir192]

16 minutes ago, NewMaxx said:

They're fairly robust devices so basically, yes. I mean for example the standoff corroded in my one laptop where I have a NVMe drive installed and...I just let it hang. Really, the case is plastic, it's not going anywhere. These are solid state devices. They're inherently reliable outside the bathtub curve - early failures and late failures are most common. Assuming you handle and install them correctly and don't run them in an unstable system.

 

Manufacturing defects are of course possible, albeit unlikely. A company will say: we want a PCB with the E12, DRAM, and this flash, make 1000 of them and charge us for components + labor. That's basically BOM, and the Phison E12 is used by literally dozens of companies in this manner. In some markets this can be sketchy (e.g. Asia) but Integral is a known brand actually. But I'm getting off-topic...in general I would not be uncomfortable using that drive.

 

FYI you can check the SMART data on receiving it and I also have utilities to identify the components and flash if need be, although I feel it's unnecessary. I certainly appreciate that some people want to see reviews of the drive first but in general E12 drives are reliable and I've worked with Integral before, it's not fly-by-night, they've been making memory products for over 20 years.

That's made me feel way more at ease about this, thanks. I think I'll go for this considering its £70 cheaper than the cheapest samsung drive at the same capacity, with very similar speeds.

 

Lets hope it's a decent drive. Thanks for your advice, it's been much appreciated!

[NewMaxx]

Wow, that's a big price difference. Yeah. How does it compare in price to other E12-based drives? I have a full list via filter on my spreadsheet but there's more than even I have listed.

[ftahir192]

1 hour ago, NewMaxx said:

Wow, that's a big price difference. Yeah. How does it compare in price to other E12-based drives? I have a full list via filter on my spreadsheet but there's more than even I have listed.

I think the cheapest I've seen is the Addlink for £149, but I've not even heard of that brand before. Silicon Power and the likes are £180 from reputable sellers, £160 on Ebay (would not trust). The Patriot Viper £167, and so on.

 

See this list here: https://www.overclock.net/forum/355-ssd/1727548-what-good-value-ssds-2019-1tb-phison-e12-toshiba.html if you feel like cross-referencing, but I think the Integral is the cheapest on that list.

 

Edit: Ha just realised the original reddit post was by you. What concerns me is that topic mentioning half the amount of DRAM, Micron 96L flash etc. Can't guarantee that the integral won't have any of that until I get it, but realistically how much will it affect performance? I'm wondering if the drive will go to shit if its say 850/900gb usable full

[NewMaxx]

Yeah, that list references me twice.

 

Addlink is another BOM as is Silicon Power. Patriot is a bit better known. I think you'll be fine with the Integral.

[ftahir192]

1 minute ago, NewMaxx said:

Yeah, that list references me twice.

 

Addlink is another BOM as is Silicon Power. Patriot is a bit better known. I think you'll be fine with the Integral.

Lets hope. Just made an edit to the above post which you probably didn't see as I edited just as you posted:

What concerns me is that topic mentioning half the amount of DRAM, Micron 96L flash etc. Can't guarantee that the integral won't have any of that until I get it, but realistically how much will it affect performance? I'm wondering if the drive will go to shit if its say 850/900gb usable full.

[NewMaxx]

I have a dedicated Reddit post covering the subject but in general I don't feel it impacts performance for consumer use. In some respects it may even perform better for that type of usage. My main concern with the change was that the E12 drives were basically a "budget 970 EVO" and more oriented at heavier workloads (quad-core controller and all) so the change to less DRAM is kind of backwards. However, I feel this was done to bring down cost with the consideration that the majority of drives sold are for consumers. Some manufacturers, like Seagate, have the old layout repurposed for datacenters/enterprise for that reason.

 

Well, the image of the drive on ebuyer (if that is where you're getting it) shows the old layout. The image on PCPP also indicates the old layout. It's taken from Integral's product page, which you guessed it, shows the old layout. That does not mean it is using it now. But there you go.

[ftahir192]

59 minutes ago, NewMaxx said:

I have a dedicated Reddit post covering the subject but in general I don't feel it impacts performance for consumer use. In some respects it may even perform better for that type of usage. My main concern with the change was that the E12 drives were basically a "budget 970 EVO" and more oriented at heavier workloads (quad-core controller and all) so the change to less DRAM is kind of backwards. However, I feel this was done to bring down cost with the consideration that the majority of drives sold are for consumers. Some manufacturers, like Seagate, have the old layout repurposed for datacenters/enterprise for that reason.

 

Well, the image of the drive on ebuyer (if that is where you're getting it) shows the old layout. The image on PCPP also indicates the old layout. It's taken from Integral's product page, which you guessed it, shows the old layout. That does not mean it is using it now. But there you go.

Okay, I guess I'll find out once I get it and run your tool to check the components

 

Cheers for the help, it's been much appreciated.

[NewMaxx]

The tool is ideally used before you partition the drive and requires a temporary driver - this driver is for the drive's storage controller and not the drive itself, check my translated readme, but also only use the driver for identification and uninstall it after.