Macbook poll

[skylinetofast]

Seeing as a MacBook Pro has really great functions that do not translate well when using windows.  the trackpad is much worse on the windows boot camp leaving out guessers.   Fine-tuning the MacBook like fan controls, CPU performance. Also all MacBook CPUs are running Intel processors For example the I9 CPU in the MacBook Pro is also found in windows laptops like the Alienware area 51. As Apple builds their own CPU this with will  mark and end to the windows bootcamp as there will be insufficient drivers and compatibility will be the problem. 

[BobVonBob]

Assuming Apple is going to make a desktop version of their A series ARM chips then I doubt Windows will be supported. To my knowledge the ARM version of Windows is limited to OEM installation and if Apple thinks they can get away with it then they won't allow installations of other operating systems.

Edited March 4, 2020 by BobVonBob
turns out that's wrong, ARM versions are available to consumers.

[skylinetofast]

3 minutes ago, BobVonBob said:

Assuming Apple is going to make a desktop version of their A series ARM chips then I doubt Windows will be supported. To my knowledge the ARM version of Windows is limited to OEM installation and if Apple thinks they can get away with it then they won't allow installations of other operating systems.

I can't agree more with what you're saying.

[SkyHound0202]

While Windows does support both ARM and X86 architectures, I couldn't imagine Apple decide to migrate to an entirely new architecture, especially for a product line with a "Pro" moniker where many existing professional software are still coded for X86 (except those cross-platform ready app like GarageBand)

 

Plus, at this stage, Apple's custom processor is still not fast enough to be a laptop/desktop replacement. I reckon this will continue into 2021 given the recent stall in semiconductor and integrated circuit development unless we see a huge jump.

 

If they were to use a custom processor, they would likely start from a low end product like Mac Mini (unlikely given the recent refresh) or Macbook (promising but need to resurrect the non-Air line).

 

All these also do not account for other architecture(s), like RISC-V, which is more lean and optimized, but lacks Windows support.

[Bombastinator]

What “in-house” chips? T2?

[SkyHound0202]

Just now, Bombastinator said:

What “in-house” chips? T2?

A-series

[Bombastinator]

8 minutes ago, SkyHound0202 said:

A-series

I thought those were dead.  They’re ARM chips iirc.  I doubt they’ll run bootcamp.  They won’t have specter/meltdown problems though so there’s that.

[Lord Vile]

On 3/4/2020 at 3:58 PM, Bombastinator said:

I thought those were dead.  They’re ARM chips iirc.  I doubt they’ll run bootcamp.  They won’t have specter/meltdown problems though so there’s that.

They're in literally every iPhone and iPad.

[Ashleyyyy]

On 3/7/2020 at 5:21 PM, Lord Vile said:

They're in literally every iPhone and iPad.

and iPod, and iirc the Watch as well. 

[Lord Vile]

5 hours ago, Twilight said:

and iPod, and iirc the Watch as well. 

Lol forgot about the touch. The watch runs S series chips though

[Bombastinator]

On 3/7/2020 at 10:21 AM, Lord Vile said:

They're in literally every iPhone and iPad.

Yeah, but they had a desktop version once.  If they’re just going to put iPad chips in desktops and laptops things will not go well.  That’s not enough grunt.  

[Lord Vile]

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Yeah, but they had a desktop version once.  If they’re just going to put iPad chips in desktops and laptops things will not go well.  That’s not enough grunt.  

The A13 outperforms intel chips in geek bench 

[skylinetofast]

On 5/4/2020 at 6:14 PM, Lord Vile said:

The A13 outperforms intel chips in geek bench 

yes the a13 out performs the intel chip in geek bench but apple still uses intel cpu for power and heavy work load. Look at the mac os professional programs like final cut pro and logic pro. apple dose not see the ipad cpu being able to handle the  heavy duty tasks for editing a 2k,4k,8k video files.  a13 cpu might scream power in geek bench but just an alternative to the i3 macbook air or i3 mac mini. Apple arm chips are going to need to be as powerful or even more powerfull then intel 10th gen cpus like the i9 10core 20 thread  cpu. there is no way apples going to make a arm processor that can compete with intel.

[Bombastinator]

23 minutes ago, skylinetofast said:

yes the a13 out performs the intel chip in geek bench but apple still uses intel cpu for power and heavy work load. Look at the mac os professional programs like final cut pro and logic pro. apple dose not see the ipad cpu being able to handle the  heavy duty tasks for editing a 2k,4k,8k video files.  a13 cpu might scream power in geek bench but just an alternative to the i3 macbook air or i3 mac mini. Apple arm chips are going to need to be as powerful or even more powerfull then intel 10th gen cpus like the i9 10core 20 thread  cpu. there is no way apples going to make a arm processor that can compete with intel.

“No way“ might be strong.  I’ll take “unlikely” though.  There are ARM chips that can do it.  They’re big girls though and apple doesn’t make one or even have one on the drawing board afaik.  
 There are 32 core ARM chips out there.  I don’t know if they’re 32/64 or 32/more than 64.  The 2 threads in multithread is an x86 thing not a physics thing.  
 

There’s also risk5 and power5, both of which OSX could be made to run on.  OSX used to even run on the power architecture before it ever ran on x86.  Both apple’s and Microsoft’s OSes are totally portable. Windows even ran on arm for a while with windows RT.  It was something of a commercial failure though.  

[Lord Vile]

12 minutes ago, skylinetofast said:

yes the a13 out performs the intel chip in geek bench but apple still uses intel cpu for power and heavy work load. Look at the mac os professional programs like final cut pro and logic pro. apple dose not see the ipad cpu being able to handle the  heavy duty tasks for editing a 2k,4k,8k video files.  a13 cpu might scream power in geek bench but just an alternative to the i3 macbook air or i3 mac mini. Apple arm chips are going to need to be as powerful or even more powerfull then intel 10th gen cpus like the i9 10core 20 thread  cpu. there is no way apples going to make a arm processor that can compete with intel.

You do know the major reason people are reluctant to use ARM chips is because they don't use the x86 instruction set which applications for both windows and Mac are written for. 

 

If an ARM chip in a phone can beat a laptop chip with a much higher TDP why couldn't they scale it up? Intel are already getting their arse handed to them by AMD why shouldn't apple have a go? 

[skylinetofast]

1 minute ago, Lord Vile said:

You do know the major reason people are reluctant to use ARM chips is because they don't use the x86 instruction set which applications for both windows and Mac are written for. 

 

If an ARM chip in a phone can beat a laptop chip with a much higher TDP why couldn't they scale it up? Intel are already getting their arse handed to them by AMD why shouldn't apple have a go? 

you know Microsoft owns a part of apple that's why they have boot camp. So apple making a arm cpu for the macbooks would stop boot camp from being a thing. Only now AMD is a winner but for the last 10 years intel was number one. AMD in 2020 makes good cpus while intel has good 10gen cpus for desktop and laptops. there intel nuck gaming desktop is grate plus every major gaming laptop made for 2020 runs intel so how is AMD winning. 

[Bombastinator]

13 minutes ago, skylinetofast said:

you know Microsoft owns a part of apple that's why they have boot camp. So apple making a arm cpu for the macbooks would stop boot camp from being a thing. Only now AMD is a winner but for the last 10 years intel was number one. AMD in 2020 makes good cpus while intel has good 10gen cpus for desktop and laptops. there intel nuck gaming desktop is grate plus every major gaming laptop made for 2020 runs intel so how is AMD winning. 

Depends.  It could still run x86 code under emulation.  It would do it slow though.  Perhaps too slow.  What would be needed I think (and I don’t know if it’s even possible) would be to make an x86 emulator that ran Totally multithread.  As it stands as I understand it, one assigned cores to run emulators.  To make an x86 emulator that ran as fast or faster than a native x86 machine would require using more than one core to emulate a single core of x86.   So say you could use 4 cores to emulate a single core of x86 and you had a 24 core arm machine it would be able to emulate up to 6 cores of x86

[Lord Vile]

42 minutes ago, skylinetofast said:

you know Microsoft owns a part of apple that's why they have boot camp. So apple making a arm cpu for the macbooks would stop boot camp from being a thing. Only now AMD is a winner but for the last 10 years intel was number one. AMD in 2020 makes good cpus while intel has good 10gen cpus for desktop and laptops. there intel nuck gaming desktop is grate plus every major gaming laptop made for 2020 runs intel so how is AMD winning. 

A fraction of a percent and how would less than a percent that they don't even own as Microsoft but through someone else mean apple has bootcamp? Apple has bootcamp because it's useful.

 

AMD has better products and AMD 4000 laptop chips destroy intel's mobile line-up.

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

A fraction of a percent and how would less than a percent that they don't even own as Microsoft but through someone else mean apple has bootcamp? Apple has bootcamp because it's useful.

 

AMD has better products and AMD 4000 laptop chips destroy intel's mobile line-up.

So you want Apple to go AMD rather than arm but still abandon intel.  I think that is the least likely of the three options.  For it to happen rocket lake would have to turn out to be a bust AND Apple would have to fail to make a good enough arm chip.  So double fail before it becomes an option.  Should still probably be looked at by Apple though.  It would be far future.  Rocket lake would have to fail and the internal Apple people would have to not be capable of making a competitive arm chip fast enough to at least face up to intel under emulation of x86.

[Lord Vile]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

So you want Apple to go AMD rather than arm but still abandon intel.  I think that is the least likely of the three options.  For it to happen rocket lake would have to turn out to be a bust AND Apple would have to fail to make a good enough arm chip.  So double fail before it becomes an option.  Should still probably be looked at by Apple though.  It would be far future.  Rocket lake would have to fail and the internal Apple people would have to not be capable of making a competitive arm chip fast enough to at least face up to intel under emulation of x86.

I don't want anything, I have a MacBook and I bought it mainly for MacOS not because of the chip. They're likely to go ARM with low end model and see how it goes. 

 

They won't emulate x86 they'll rewrite it for ARM.

 

 

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

I don't want anything, I have a MacBook and I bought it mainly for MacOS not because of the chip. They're likely to go ARM with low end model and see how it goes. 

 

They won't emulate x86 they'll rewrite it for ARM.

 

 

There’s a lot of x86 to rewrite and they don’t own all of it.  Most of it is games though and Apple abandoned games long ago.  A lot of the old stuff could be recompiled by the company for games.  One of the jokes of linux is wine runs more x86 software than modern x86 does.  If they can get a wine running directly on arm (which iirc can’t be done) they would largely have it.  As is wine would have to run in an x86 emulator.  If they could rewrite an emulator to go more than iirc something like 10% faster than a native x86 core, there would be no reason whatsoever to use x86 and it would die. This actually happened at one point long ago.  There was a chip that could emulate x86 faster than x86 chips could go.  The x86 manufacturers got off their fundamenta and made something that went faster, but they almost lost everything.

[Lord Vile]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

There’s a lot of x86 to rewrite and they don’t own all of it.  Most of it is games though and Apple abandoned games long ago.  A lot of the old stuff could be recompiled by the company for games.  One of the jokes of linux is wine runs more x86 software than modern x86 does.  If they can get a wine running directly on arm (which iirc can’t be done) they would largely have it.  As is wine would have to run in an x86 emulator.  If they could rewrite an emulator to go more than iirc something like 10% faster than a native x86 core, there would be no reason whatsoever to use x86 and it would die. This actually happened at one point long ago.  There was a chip that could emulate x86 faster than x86 chips could go.  The x86 manufacturers got off their fundamenta and made something that went faster, but they almost lost everything.

What are you on about games for? No one buys a Mac for games.

[Bombastinator]

40 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

What are you on about games for? No one buys a Mac for games.

They used to though long ago.  My main interest in computers these days is data security which Apple seems to be better at and games which Apple sucks ass at.  Leaves me torn.

in this case I’m not on games so much as simply pointing out that it is historically has been the majority of software.  Lots of things need wine to run besides games.  The bulk of that software is still games though and games continue to sell personal computers, much as art continues to sell games.  Boot camp is primarily used to run games.

[Lord Vile]

9 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

They used to though long ago.  My main interest in computers these days is data security which Apple seems to be better at and games which Apple sucks ass at.  Leaves me torn.

in this case I’m not on games so much as simply pointing out that it is historically has been the majority of software.  Lots of things need wine to run besides games.  The bulk of that software is still games though and games continue to sell personal computers, much as art continues to sell games.  Boot camp is primarily used to run games.

What do you need wine to run exactly? If you want windows on a mac you can literally just bootcamp or run a VM. If you want to game get a desktop. Or get a mac pro for 15 grand, up to you. 

[skylinetofast]

4 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

What do you need wine to run exactly? If you want windows on a mac you can literally just bootcamp or run a VM. If you want to game get a desktop. Or get a mac pro for 15 grand, up to you. 

Macbook pro are better than windows in almost every thing except gaming.  I bought my macbook pro for video editing 4k, Photo editing and programming. I run a boot camp on my mac for gaming and doing  autodesk inventer and revit. I use my macbook pro is equal  to a gaming laptop and workstation laptop. In windows I play forza horizon 4 60fps on high. If I compare the Lenovo p series laptop runing the exact same specs as my macbook pro the mac out performes the windows laptop.