2013 15inch MBP vs 2018 13inch MBP

[Tzztr Rrtr]

Hi,

 

I am looking to upgrade my early 2013 MBP 15 to one of the new models. Yes I know that many, if not most, windows laptops offer a better value, however you can't argue with the longevity of Apples devices and their strong resell value. Also I am just happier with how the applications I use run on MacOS. I have a gaming desktop anyways ^^.

 

Back to the topic on hand, just wanted to get that out of the way just so that we could talk solely about what I am looking to do.

 

I am thinking about going from the 15inch to the new 13inch. Portability and price were the main factors here.

I haven't kept too much up-to-date with laptop processors, so I used Geekbench to compare. I am not very well versed when it comes to Geekbench though... So I wanted to ask:

 

My current device scored 

 

and the 13inch 2018 is listed with

 

I am often hitting a definitive CPU bottleneck when working and since I game on my desktop I don't care too much about GPU performance, although it would be a welcome boost when I do occasionally game on the go.

So, is that really that big of a difference? Or would I be better off with the 15in 6core version?

[GoldenLag]

longevity isnt exactly a strongsuit of the most modern Macbooks. however resell value is still something macbooks are good at, people still pay way to much for a 6 year old device. though i will note that modern ultrabooks are holding their value quite well. 

 

what software do you work with?

[Tzztr Rrtr]

7 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

longevity isnt exactly a strongsuit of the most modern Macbooks. however resell value is still something macbooks are good at, people still pay way to much for a 6 year old device. though i will note that modern ultrabooks are holding their value quite well. 

 

what software do you work with?

Why would you say that longevity isn't a strong point anymore? Been using my 2013 device for very long until I started to notice it's age, had a couple of windows laptops before which had crazy performance degradation just after 6-12months.

 

I mostly work with Ableton Live 10, Luminar 3, and some Unity (mostly on my desktop because of GPU). Some tracks in Ableton are just too much for my machine as they get more complex with automation and FX. I notice sound starting to stutter, sometimes to the point where I can't continue to work on certain tracks and need to leave them be until I get a better device. 

[.Apex.]

@Tzztr Rrtr

that doesn't seem like a worthwhile upgrade to me, you seem to already have a pretty damn good CPU in your 15inch one, and i would advise you use Cinebench to compare scores because Geekbench is very weird with hyperthreading, so you might be not seeing the actual raw difference.

[.Apex.]

4 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

Why would you say that longevity isn't a strong point anymore? Been using my 2013 device for very long until I started to notice it's age, had a couple of windows laptops before which had crazy performance degradation just after 6-12months.

 

I mostly work with Ableton Live 10, Luminar 3, and some Unity (mostly on my desktop because of GPU). Some tracks in Ableton are just too much for my machine as they get more complex with automation and FX. I notice sound starting to stutter, sometimes to the point where I can't continue to work on certain tracks and need to leave them be until I get a better device. 

in that case you would see a huge difference if you go with the 6 core version, but i would still like to see a Cinebench score to see the actual difference

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

Why would you say that longevity isn't a strong point anymore?

keyboard is still somewhat iffy on the new models. while it is said to be corrected, the quickfix in place might not hold as long as we want. Also the quality of other laptops has reached a point of equality among any major Brand

3 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

I mostly work with Ableton Live 10, Luminar 3, and some Unity (mostly on my desktop because of GPU). Some tracks in Ableton are just too much for my machine as they get more complex with automation and FX. I notice sound starting to stutter, sometimes to the point where I can't continue to work on certain tracks and need to leave them be until I get a better device. 

sadly not too familiar with the programs. the thermal envelope of new laptops isnt great for productivity work. you might aim for some of the thinner gaminglaptops. otherwise it will be relativly minor upgrade

 

some of the 15inch ultrabooks might work, though im not the guy to say for shure

[.Apex.]

13 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

Some tracks in Ableton are just too much for my machine as they get more complex with automation and FX.

increasing buffer size will help out alot with stuttering because you would give your CPU more headroom to process the effects that you're using, which would mean more latency, but if you're only mixing and not recording then latency doesn't matter much.

 

and a higher core count CPU will definitely handle more tracks per project, but if your project starts to stutter on one track only because of overuse of effects in that one track, then a higher core count CPU will probably not help you out much since the single core performance of the new Macbook is very similar because Ableton assigns only 1 core per track, so trying to spread out your effects into multiple tracks will help in this regard.

[Tzztr Rrtr]

5 minutes ago, syn2112 said:

in that case you would see a huge difference if you go with the 6 core version, but i would still like to see a Cinebench score to see the actual difference

I am downloading it now and will post the result once it finishes.

 

4 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

sadly not too familiar with the programs. the thermal envelope of new laptops isnt great for productivity work. you might aim for some of the thinner gaminglaptops. otherwise it will be relativly minor upgrade

 

some of the 15inch ultrabooks might work, though im not the guy to say for shure

I have shied away from using Win based machines for a while now since literally none of the windows computers I ever owned were good when it came to audio driver performance. Even when new, the buffer and the resulting lag were never satisfying. And then there is the issue with battery life. None of the gaming laptops I know of have good battery life. And the Razer machines sound great, and get good reviews, but apparently don't stand the test of time. Even Linus and many others have complained about issues with them, and support isn't good either. 

 

10 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

keyboard is still somewhat iffy on the new models. while it is said to be corrected, the quickfix in place might not hold as long as we want. Also the quality of other laptops has reached a point of equality among any major Brand

Yeah, I am also a bit nervous about that keyboard, but hope it'll be fine since I plan on treating my laptop well.

 

Which other laptops have reached equality in build and feel? Anything I have seen at the local stores doesn't even come close (Asus, HP etc.) and from what I can tell in videos things like rigidity and overall feel still isn't on paar even at Dell or Razer.

[Tzztr Rrtr]

1 minute ago, syn2112 said:

increasing buffer size will help out alot with stuttering because you would give your CPU more headroom to process the effects that you're using, which would mean more latency, but if you're only mixing and not recording then latency doesn't matter much.

 

and a higher core count CPU will definitely handle more tracks per project, but if your project starts to stutter on one track only because of overuse of effects in that one track, then a higher core count CPU will probably not help you out much since the single core performance of the new Macbook is very similar because Ableton assigns only 1 core per track, so trying to spread out your effects into multiple tracks will help in this regard.

So the thing is from looking at other peoples ensembles in Ableton it doesn't seem like they are using less effects or less taxing effects/VSTs from which I deduced that it's a problem with my laptop.

 

Also, yeah, i could increase buffer size, but I like to play in my midi directly while other stuff is playing, instead of drawing it in. And having too much latency for that has proven detrimental to accuracy which meant I had to go in after recording them and edit it which was super annoying after a while.

[GoldenLag]

2 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

Which other laptops have reached equality in build and feel?

HP envy lineup is pretty high quality but something id call sub-premium

 

Dell XPS is a very nice lineup of machines.

 

Surface lineup. Dont think i meed to say anything.

 

Huawei Matebook X Pro (only notable laptop they sell, but it is really good)

 

LG not avavible everywhere, but their Gram series is like ved by a lot of people

 

 

That is a few i can mention from the top of my head.

 

7 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

Yeah, I am also a bit nervous about that keyboard, but hope it'll be fine since I plan on treating my laptop well.

Its more of when the film they added breaks or doesnt work as intended anymore. If any dust or grains gather underneath the keyboard you are in for a repairbill. 

 

Treating the laptop well is essentiall, but its hard tp avoid somethign thatn cam happen by simple typing. 

[genexis_x]

16 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

Which other laptops have reached equality in build and feel?

The highest quality laptop would be premium business laptops (eg Thinkpad T series) and 'true' mobile workstations (eg Thinkpad P series except P52s)

 

Macbook quality isn't any different that a cheap Windows laptop, time has changed

[Tzztr Rrtr]

4 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

HP envy lineup is pretty high quality but something id call sub-premium

 

Dell XPS is a very nice lineup of machines.

 

Surface lineup. Dont think i meed to say anything.

 

Huawei Matebook X Pro (only notable laptop they sell, but it is really good)

 

LG not avavible everywhere, but their Gram series is like ved by a lot of people

 

LG not available here and I don't trust Huawei when it come to support if something happens. I would've gotten the Surface Laptop 2 if it wasn't for the port selection (like srsly, wtf?!).

 

And for the Dells and the HPs, as I said I already felt them, and it just didn't feel that premium and most importantly, it didn't feel like it would last at least 3 years.

[.Apex.]

9 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

So the thing is from looking at other peoples ensembles in Ableton it doesn't seem like they are using less effects or less taxing effects/VSTs from which I deduced that it's a problem with my laptop.

 

Also, yeah, i could increase buffer size, but I like to play in my midi directly while other stuff is playing, instead of drawing it in. And having too much latency for that has proven detrimental to accuracy which meant I had to go in after recording them and edit it which was super annoying after a while.

honestly the higher upgrade you can go the better, a small upgrade isn't worth it in my opinion, since i also upgraded to an 8700K but my system still cripples when i go a bit crazy with the tracks, and mostly because BIAS FX is very heavy on the CPU and i tend to have alot of BIAS FX tracks, so even for a high end system like that, it's not bullet proof or anything.

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

Huawei when it come to support if something happens. I would've gotten the Surface Laptop 2 if it wasn't for the port selection (like srsly, wtf?!).

Huawei if something happens you will have to RMA it. I havent heard too much about their customer service, but thy have recently made a push into the laptop space with their Matebook series. So take from as you wish.

 

Surface laptops are close to perfection. Slightly larger trackpad and Thunderbolt and its perfect

[Tzztr Rrtr]

1 minute ago, syn2112 said:

honestly the higher upgrade you can go the better, a small upgrade isn't worth it in my opinion, since i also upgraded to an 8700K but my system still cripples when i go a bit crazy with the tracks, and mostly because BIAS FX is very heavy on the CPU and i tend to have alot of BIAS FX tracks, so even for a high end system like that, it's not bullet proof or anything.

I see... Although I have noticed that Mac systems seem to handle Audio stuff better in general. My desktop is equal in performance in Ableton and runs a Ryzen 7 1800X...

Also I did Cinebench now and after running it a few times I sit at about 500-510. 

 

7 minutes ago, GeneXiS_X said:

The highest quality laptop would be premium business laptops (eg Thinkpad T series) and 'true' mobile workstations (eg Thinkpad P series except P52s)

 

Macbook quality isn't any different that a cheap Windows laptop, time has changed

Love the keyboards in Lenovos, but never could get behind their build, it might be long lasting, but feels very plasticy. Also trackpads are terrible compared to Apples.

[Tzztr Rrtr]

10 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

Huawei if something happens you will have to RMA it. I havent heard too much about their customer service, but thy have recently made a push into the laptop space with their Matebook series. So take from as you wish.

 

Surface laptops are close to perfection. Slightly larger trackpad and Thunderbolt and its perfect

Here in Germany just about anyone I asked (that's 4) about what the support is like they said atrocious. Sending it in means the laptop being gone for at least a month. Can't do that.

Yes. The Surfaces are really close to make me give them a shot. But they just aren't there yet. I won't buy a dock for 170Eur! to have a decent port selection. I already have a good USB-C dongle so I don't even have to buy one for the MBP. If the Surface Laptop had at least one full performance USB-C  Would've tried it out at least.

[GoldenLag]

5 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

Here in Germany just about anyone I asked (that's 4) about what the support is like they said atrocious. Sending it in means the laptop being gone for at least a month. Can't do that.

Yes. The Surfaces are really close to make me give them a shot. But they just aren't there yet. I won't buy a dock for 170Eur! to have a decent port selection. I already have a good USB-C dongle so I don't even have to buy one for the MBP. If the Surface Laptop had at least one full performance USB-C  Would've tried it out at least.

The Surface Book has USB C. So that is up for debate i suppose. 

[.Apex.]

i don't understand this Windows laptop vs Apple laptop debate, MacOs does have a better audio driver system going on, but Windows relies on the drivers that comes with your external Audio Interface, so if you have a good audio interface and drivers, then they'll both perform very similar, but it's not only about audio drivers, he probably got used to the workflow in MacOS, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

2 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

My desktop is equal in performance in Ableton and runs a Ryzen 7 1800X...

Ryzen First Gen is pretty bad when it comes to audio production because a 7700K can beat it easily in that scenario

 

5 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

Also I did Cinebench now and after running it a few times I sit at about 500-510. 

yeah in that case i advise you go with the 6 core i7 in the 15inch, because the 4 core i7 or 4 core i5 in the 13inch is barely an upgrade.

[Tzztr Rrtr]

5 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

The Surface Book has USB C. So that is up for debate i suppose. 

Not thunderbolt, so my dongle won't work nominally. Also the form-factor is just... well weird.

[Tzztr Rrtr]

14 minutes ago, syn2112 said:

i don't understand this Windows laptop vs Apple laptop debate, MacOs does have a better audio driver system going on, but Windows relies on the drivers that comes with your external Audio Interface, so if you have a good audio interface and drivers, then they'll both perform very similar, but it's not only about audio drivers, he probably got used to the workflow in MacOS, there's nothing wrong with that.

I did get used to the workflow on MacOS, I just preferred it over Win when I switched in 2013. And I was a huge sceptic. Also I can't use an DAI even though I know I should. (Doesn't make sense financially atm seeing how I've faired well so far)

But at the end of the day I plainly just like MacOS with it's gestures etc. But I still like to engage in these discussions because I'd like to be won over tbh. But the only device that has the looks, performance, battery life, trackpad, screen, speakers (I watch A LOT of videos and like to listen back on "the worst possible speaker scenario" but don't want it to be craptown all together :D) IO, and good resell value so far is the Surface Laptop. I don't like the Surface Book for the reasons mentioned above. The Surface Laptop felt so sexy man... But that IO is terrible... much worse than the MBP.

Here's to hoping v3 will be the one  

14 minutes ago, syn2112 said:

Ryzen First Gen is pretty bad when it comes to audio production because a 7700K can beat it easily in that scenario

Didn't know that about 1st gen Ryzen. Well I do 99% of Audio stuff on the MBP anyways. 

 

14 minutes ago, syn2112 said:

yeah in that case i advise you go with the 6 core i7 in the 15inch, because the 4 core i7 or 4 core i5 in the 13inch is barely an upgrade.

Okay, I have had that suspicion too. I think I'll order both and send one back. 

[.Apex.]

5 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

did get used to the workflow on MacOS, I just preferred it over Win when I switched in 2013. And I was a huge sceptic. Also I can't use an DAI even though I know I should. 

But at the end of the day I plainly just like MacOS with it's gestures etc. But I still like to engage in these discussions because I'd like to be won over tbh. But the only device that has the looks, performance, battery life, trackpad, screen, speakers (I watch A LOT of videos and like to listen back on "the worst possible speaker scenario" but don't want it to be craptown all together :D) IO, and good resell value so far is the Surface Laptop. I don't like the Surface Book for the reasons mentioned above. The Surface Laptop felt so sexy man... But that IO is terrible... much worse than the MBP.

Here's to hoping v3 will be the one  

to each their own man, as long as you're comfortable with the workflow but don't disregard Windows as a terrible audio production system, as long as you have a good audio interface then Windows performs fantastic in my experience, i used to be really frustrated with my old audio interface because the drivers were f***ing terrible and i didn't know that it was the drivers fault, but after i got a good one with good drivers, everything is going smooth and im happy, the new audio interface was less taxing on my system too for some reason, i was able to use more tracks at the same buffer size and it was lower latency too, it was very noticeable, don't know if you'll get the same experience though but it doesn't hurt to try it out if you're thinking of switching.

 

talking about desktops here btw, don't know anything about laptops, don't own one and never owned one  i hate them

 

which audio interface do you use btw? or you're relying on ASIO4ALL with onboard audio? because ASIO4ALL is also god damn terrible.

 

15 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

Okay, I have had that suspicion too. I think I'll order both and send one back. 

the new 4 core i7 scores around 650, so that means it's only about a 30% increase, while that's a good chunk of performance but when talking about audio production that's like a few extra heavy tracks until it cripples again. 

[Tzztr Rrtr]

4 minutes ago, syn2112 said:

to each their own man, as long as you're comfortable with the workflow but don't disregard Windows as a terrible audio production system, as long as you have a good audio interface then Windows performs fantastic in my experience, i used to be really frustrated with my old audio interface because the drivers were f***ing terrible and i didn't know that it was the drivers fault, but after i got a good one with good drivers, everything is going smooth and im happy, the new audio interface was less taxing on my system too for some reason, i was able to use more tracks at the same buffer size and it was lower latency too, it was very noticeable, don't know if you'll get the same experience though but it doesn't hurt to try it out if you're thinking of switching.

 

talking about desktops here btw, don't know anything about laptops, don't own one and never owned one  i hate them

I love the option to take whatever I am doing on the go and do it wherever the wind blows

 

8 minutes ago, syn2112 said:

which audio interface do you use btw? or you're relying on ASIO4ALL with onboard audio? because ASIO4ALL is also god damn terrible.

So on my mac I haven't had to use any DAI tbh. And when I did I just loaned one. I never had any issues just working straight on the laptop. When I was on windows I was a newbie, and the only option back then was ASIO4ALL. Started out Djing (which I still do btw) and the Midi controler I had for Traktor was fine until I upgraded to one with a sound card built in. It was downright unusable. It was then that I made the switch to the MBP and everything just worked. Downloaded the drivers for the controler and nothing else had to be done. It just worked. And when I tried Ableton on the MBP it was all so much more smooth, less issues overall. Before that I had 2 different Windows laptops where I'd constantly run into issues. Specially with Traktor and Ableton. I didn't want to buy a DAI because it would only improve my Ableton live but do nothing for my Traktor live.

 

But, if I was to buy a DAI today it would probably be a Focusrite mid ranger.

19 minutes ago, syn2112 said:

the new 4 core i7 scores around 650, so that means it's only about a 30% increase, while that's a good chunk of performance but when talking about audio production that's like a few extra heavy tracks until it cripples again. 

Yeah, and unfortunately there are no music prod. centric reviews of the MBPs. They are all about video or photo editing, but audio prod. can be very taxing on the systems.

 

In the end I'll probably end up with the 15inch ^^

[.Apex.]

17 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

o on my mac I haven't had to use any DAI tbh. And when I did I just loaned one. I never had any issues just working straight on the laptop

it's because masOS uses it's own audio driver system, so it doesn't need drivers, it's plug and play, and it works the same on all audio interfaces so the performance will be the same, but Windows doesn't have that, it purely relies on the drivers made by the audio interface company.

 

19 minutes ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

Yeah, and unfortunately there are no music prod. centric reviews of the MBPs. They are all about video or photo editing, but audio prod. can be very taxing on the systems.

 

In the end I'll probably end up with the 15inch ^^

http://www.scanproaudio.info/2018/07/10/intel-i7-8750h-the-power-to-move-you/

 

here's a benchmark for the 4 core i7-8550U (13 inch) and the 6 core i7-8750H (15 inch ), the test is not done on macOS and it's pretty damn hard to find this kind of benchmark of your old Macbook but to give you an idea, the 4 core scores around 650 and the 6 core scores around 1000-1100.

 

SGA 1566 is a VST btw, this benchmark tests how many VST's can run at the same time before it starts to stutter, it's a lightweight VST so the workload is spread across all cores pretty evenly, but in real world scenarios where you would use different kinds of VST's and each core gets loaded differently, then you'll probably see the results closer together.

 

Polyphony count tests how many MIDI notes can be played at once

[Tzztr Rrtr]

9 minutes ago, syn2112 said:

http://www.scanproaudio.info/2018/07/10/intel-i7-8750h-the-power-to-move-you/

 

here's a benchmark for the 4 core i7-8550U (13 inch) and the 6 core i7-8750H (15 inch ), the test is not done on macOS and it's pretty damn hard to find this kind of benchmark of your old Macbook but to give you an idea, the 4 core scores around 650 and the 6 core scores around 1000-1100.

 

SGA 1566 is a VST btw, this benchmark tests how many VST's can run at the same time before it starts to stutter, it's a lightweight VST so the workload is spread across all cores pretty evenly, but in real world scenarios where you would use different kinds of VST's and each core gets loaded differently, then you'll probably see the results closer together.

 

Polyphony count tests how many MIDI notes can be played at once

That doesn't sound all that bad. I'll try to remember to post my own findings. Once I get the new device (I've decided on going with the 13inch for now, and if that doesn't cut it, I'll get the 15) I'll set up the same testing scenario using a random mix of Loom (an additive synth) Reaktor 6 modules, Reaktor 6FX, some native compressors and a bunch of other VSTs (I am a bit of a plug-in whore :D). I'll make them the same on both systems and note when they start to choke.

 

This may sound very unscientific, but I think it's closer to real world performance than a benchmark would be.

[.Apex.]

1 minute ago, Tzztr Rrtr said:

That doesn't sound all that bad. I'll try to remember to post my own findings. Once I get the new device (I've decided on going with the 13inch for now, and if that doesn't cut it, I'll get the 15) I'll set up the same testing scenario using a random mix of Loom (an additive synth) Reaktor 6 modules, Reaktor 6FX, some native compressors and a bunch of other VSTs (I am a bit of a plug-in whore :D). I'll make them the same on both systems and note when they start to choke.

 

This may sound very unscientific, but I think it's closer to real world performance than a benchmark would be.

make sure each VST gets its own track, and that there's the same number of the each VST, don't do it randomly or that wouldn't be accurate, but yes that would be more realistic  good luck