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Vacuum Chamber

Hey Linus,

 

I just watched the below video.  Although you don't get into niche builds that much, how this guy completely sealed off his case got me thinking...how good would a rig's performance be if the case was not only completely sealed off, but then completely vacuumized after sealing so that there were basically no air molicules left inside to transfer heat?  First air cooled (like his), then liquid cooled.  I'm thinking like having an oil dipped rig, but without the mess or need for periodic cleaning (inside the case, anyhow).

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-z9PidYH4E

 

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6 minutes ago, Pebbles said:

it wouldn't cool dummy

Did you watch the video?  The heatsink for both the CPU and GPU are outside the case.  The only thing he didn't put passive cooling on is the RAM.

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I seeked across video and I didn't see any mention of vacuum. Also, why would you do that? To what purpose? If it's passive, there is no noise. If you use fans, you can't have them in vacuum. So, I'm not quite following what's the purpose of vacuum idea here...

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This guy didn't have his case vacuumized, just sealed, so the other components on the motherboard will transfer heat and he may find his boardand other components degrading over time.  Having an oil filled case helps to eliminate this, but then the mineral oil breaks down the seals on tubing and other rubberized and glued seals.  Linus and Luke (among others) has built a couple of these, but the oil needs to be changed periodically and the components/hoses may also need to be replaced in time.  Also, upgrading a system that is submersed in oil is a messy, time consuming endeavor.  With a sealed/vacuumed case, theoretically no components will be degraded by oil, no oxygen molicules will exist to transfer heat, and upgrading components will be very easy requiring simply turning a vanve to equalize the pressure, open the case, upgrade/change the components, reseal the case, and suck the air out again.  Like the oil filled case, it is sealed so no dirt/dust will get in, and with no air, no H2O to condense if subzero cooling meaning no barriers or wicks to install.

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10 minutes ago, DDG69 said:

This guy didn't have his case vacuumized, just sealed, so the other components on the motherboard will transfer heat and he may find his boardand other components degrading over time.  Having an oil filled case helps to eliminate this, but then the mineral oil breaks down the seals on tubing and other rubberized and glued seals.  Linus and Luke (among others) has built a couple of these, but the oil needs to be changed periodically and the components/hoses may also need to be replaced in time.  Also, upgrading a system that is submersed in oil is a messy, time consuming endeavor.  With a sealed/vacuumed case, theoretically no components will be degraded by oil, no oxygen molicules will exist to transfer heat, and upgrading components will be very easy requiring simply turning a vanve to equalize the pressure, open the case, upgrade/change the components, reseal the case, and suck the air out again.  Like the oil filled case, it is sealed so no dirt/dust will get in, and with no air, no H2O to condense if subzero cooling meaning no barriers or wicks to install.

Numerous components (VRMs, chipset and others) don't need significant cooling - only a very small amount. In a sealed case, it can still propagate that heat through the air. In a vacuum case, it cannot so these components will heat up.

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Now were getting somewhere.  The guy in the video fabricated a copper plate to cover those components, and then thermal pads to mate the plate to them.  Wouldn't this eleviate that in a vacuum as well?  My original question was "How good would a rig's performance be if the case was not only completely sealed off, but then completely vacuumized..."  I don't know if this would work or not.  I just think it might be fun for Linus to try it out and see the results.  In the vacuum of space, components don't break down (very fast if properly cooled), no lubrication is lost, and no dust particles are introduced to muk things up.  Could a rig sealed and the air vacuumed out last for decades?  

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5 hours ago, DDG69 said:

Now were getting somewhere.  The guy in the video fabricated a copper plate to cover those components, and then thermal pads to mate the plate to them.  Wouldn't this eleviate that in a vacuum as well?  My original question was "How good would a rig's performance be if the case was not only completely sealed off, but then completely vacuumized..."  I don't know if this would work or not.  I just think it might be fun for Linus to try it out and see the results.  In the vacuum of space, components don't break down (very fast if properly cooled), no lubrication is lost, and no dust particles are introduced to muk things up.  Could a rig sealed and the air vacuumed out last for decades?  

It might last for decades, but the performance will be awful because all the components, that need direct airflow like vrm etc. will overheat and might die 

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You must have a fluid to transfer the waste heat into. Whether that fluid is a gas (air) or liquid, you would need a way to carry the heat away. You can use conduction to move the heat outside the case then dissipate the heat using fins and a fan. The big issue happens when you have to think about cooling all of the other components like PSU, storage drives, RAM, VRMs, or other small components on the motherboard. There is a LOT to think about if you're going to remove the air from a computer case.

 

The big question I would have is why would one want to do this? If you make an air tight case and fill it with a dry inert gas to prevent corrosion or something I could see...but to remove all the air seems like asking for a lot of trouble.

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8 hours ago, Mephi00 said:

It might last for decades, but the performance will be awful because all the components, that need direct airflow like vrm etc. will overheat and might die 

Wont the mosfets and rest of the vrm be cooled by the plate/heatsink that is mated to them?

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18 hours ago, DDG69 said:

I just watched the below video.  Although you don't get into niche builds that much, how this guy completely sealed off his case got me thinking...how good would a rig's performance be if the case was not only completely sealed off, but then completely vacuumized after sealing so that there were basically no air molicules left inside to transfer heat?  First air cooled (like his), then liquid cooled.  I'm thinking like having an oil dipped rig, but without the mess or need for periodic cleaning (inside the case, anyhow). 

 

Heat still needs to be radiated in a vacuum. By putting the system in a vacuum you create the extra difficulty that you now need to figure out how to cool basically all the other system components because passive cooling of the voltage management systems, ram, chipset, and associated hardware won't be possible.

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7 hours ago, Razor Blade said:

You must have a fluid to transfer the waste heat into. Whether that fluid is a gas (air) or liquid, you would need a way to carry the heat away. You can use conduction to move the heat outside the case then dissipate the heat using fins and a fan. The big issue happens when you have to think about cooling all of the other components like PSU, storage drives, RAM, VRMs, or other small components on the motherboard. There is a LOT to think about if you're going to remove the air from a computer case.

 

The big question I would have is why would one want to do this? If you make an air tight case and fill it with a dry inert gas to prevent corrosion or something I could see...but to remove all the air seems like asking for a lot of trouble.

Okay, but without air present, there would be no corrosion.  The concept of a vacuum is to remove all means of heat transfer from one really hot item to another, normally cool item.  I'm not saying it has to be 100% passively cooled, just try that one time to see what the thermals are, then liquid cool the CPU, VRM, GPU, etc.  The PSU can actually sit outside the case so that that heat is radiated into the outside air like normal, and replacing the PSU would be easy provided the cable connectors are standard and not proprietary where you would have to constantly buy the same PSU when one fails.  

 

I'm just talking about thinking out of the box somewhat.  The motherboard and it's peripherals (such as the CPU, GPU, memory, M.2 drives, expansion cards, etc.) are in the vacuum sealed case, the PSU and other items like HDDs are on the outside.  I'm just interested in the thermals here, and if it would actually work, not spending the money myself to build a system like this for everyday use.

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4 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

 

Heat still needs to be radiated in a vacuum. By putting the system in a vacuum you create the extra difficulty that you now need to figure out how to cool basically all the other system components because passive cooling of the voltage management systems, ram, chipset, and associated hardware won't be possible.

Actually, it would be possible to cool those components.  Check out that video.

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1 minute ago, DDG69 said:

Actually, it would be possible to cool those components.  Check out that video.

I didn't say it wouldn't be possible. I said it would be impossible to passively cool them in the case...

And, If I remember correctly, the video you posted wasn't in a vacuum, and that's what this post was about: Doing the same thing, but also in a vacuum.

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1 minute ago, DDG69 said:

Actually, it would be possible to cool those components.  Check out that video.

Oh, and in a vacuum, heat doesn't radiate to adjacent components if they are not physically touching...other than the miniscule radiation they put out and what is carried through the PCB.

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1 minute ago, DDG69 said:

Okay, but without air present, there would be no corrosion.  The concept of a vacuum is to remove all means of heat transfer from one really hot item to another, normally cool item.  I'm not saying it has to be 100% passively cooled, just try that one time to see what the thermals are, then liquid cool the CPU, VRM, GPU, etc.  The PSU can actually sit outside the case so that that heat is radiated into the outside air like normal, and replacing the PSU would be easy provided the cable connectors are standard and not proprietary where you would have to constantly buy the same PSU when one fails.  

 

I'm just talking about thinking out of the box somewhat.  The motherboard and it's peripherals (such as the CPU, GPU, memory, M.2 drives, expansion cards, etc.) are in the vacuum sealed case, the PSU and other items like HDDs are on the outside.  I'm just interested in the thermals here, and if it would actually work, not spending the money myself to build a system like this for everyday use.

Oxygen and water in the air are what cause corrosion. Replacing room air in a container with another gas is a good way to preserve something that would be damaged over time by moisture and oxygen.

 

The problem with electronics in a vacuum, if components can't get rid of heat via convection (movement of air around them), their only means is by conduction and anything they can radiate. Unless the component is designed to be able to radiate heat by itself, it'll quickly overheat. At best, you'll get instability. At worst, you get shortened life and eventual component failure.

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2 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

I didn't say it wouldn't be possible. I said it would be impossible to passively cool them in the case...

And, If I remember correctly, the video you posted wasn't in a vacuum, and that's what this post was about: Doing the same thing, but also in a vacuum.

Yep, taking this guy's sealed case concept where he passively cooled most items and expanding it to vacuumize the case.  His rig will get a lot of heat transfer from component-to-component, but in a vacuum, that transfer won't exist.  Just like with sound, heat doesn't radiate out in a vacuum, so a very hot GPU won't cause any oher surrounding component to heat up...other than the heat transferes via physically touching items like the PCB.

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1 minute ago, DDG69 said:

Yep, taking this guy's sealed case concept where he passively cooled most items and expanding it to vacuumize the case.  His rig will get a lot of heat transfer from component-to-component, but in a vacuum, that transfer won't exist.  Just like with sound, heat doesn't radiate out in a vacuum, so a very hot GPU won't cause any oher surrounding component to heat up...other than the heat transferes via physically touching items like the PCB.

I have yet to have a hot GPU or CPU cause any sort of problem with any surrounding component. Of course heat can radiate in a vacuum. think about an incandescent light. The moment you turn a cold incandescent light on you can start to feel heat on the glass part. It isn't conducting from the metal socket... it is from the filament inside providing light energy. Components don't generally radiate visible light but they will radiate some heat. But in the absence of convection, that heat probably won't go anywhere...which is bad.

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4 minutes ago, Razor Blade said:

Oxygen and water in the air are what cause corrosion. Replacing room air in a container with another gas is a good way to preserve something that would be damaged over time by moisture and oxygen.

 

The problem with electronics in a vacuum, if components can't get rid of heat via convection (movement of air around them), their only means is by conduction and anything they can radiate. Unless the component is designed to be able to radiate heat by itself, it'll quickly overheat. At best, you'll get instability. At worst, you get shortened life and eventual component failure.

Removing all the air is the perfect corrosion control.  The satellites and probes we send to space will never face a corrosion issue.  With satellites, the components that do generate heat have heat sinks to wick away the excessive heat.  We only protect the housing with shielding from the extreme temperature differences each cycle, and the solar and cosmic radiations, we don't shield components from each other.

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Just now, DDG69 said:

Just like with sound, heat doesn't radiate out in a vacuum, so a very hot GPU won't cause any oher surrounding component to heat up...other than the heat transferes via physically touching items like the PCB. 

Right, except for the GPU will overheat unless you find a way to cool it. As will all other components in the system that produce large amounts of heat, which makes finding ways to get the heat of the VRMs, chipset, RAM, any video/audio circuitry, and any other high speed component including HDD/SDDs out of the case. Having free air in the case, even if it's not circulating, gives these items a chance to dissipate heat.

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4 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

Right, except for the GPU will overheat unless you find a way to cool it. As will all other components in the system that produce large amounts of heat, which makes finding ways to get the heat of the VRMs, chipset, RAM, any video/audio circuitry, and any other high speed component including HDD/SDDs out of the case. Having free air in the case, even if it's not circulating, gives these items a chance to dissipate heat.

Please watch the video.  Transfering the heat from such components was done and I'm talking about stepping that up even more.

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Just now, DDG69 said:

The satellites and probes we send to space will never face a corrosion issue

Yes, they do. There are two types of corrosion that occur in any vacuum, galvanic corrosion and whiskers (google "Tin Whiskers" for the most information). If you're in a high radiation environment, such as outer space, there are even more problems that can occur, some of which even effect plastics.

 

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Just now, straight_stewie said:

Yes, they do. There are two types of corrosion that occur in any vacuum, galvanic corrosion and whiskers (google "Tin Whiskers" for the most information). If you're in a high radiation environment, such as outer space, there are even more problems that can occur, some of which even effect plastics.

 

And that's why we shield for radiation.

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1 minute ago, DDG69 said:

Removing all the air is the perfect corrosion control.  The satellites and probes we send to space will never face a corrosion issue.  With satellites, the components that do generate heat have heat sinks to wick away the excessive heat.  We only protect the housing with shielding from the extreme temperature differences each cycle, and the solar and cosmic radiations, we don't shield components from each other.

You have no idea what you're talking about. There is a reason equipment destined for space has so much shielding and are made of very expensive materials including noble metals. extreme temperatures, radiation, and in low earth orbit there is atomic oxygen (which is very reactive).

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ESXI

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1 minute ago, Razor Blade said:

You have no idea what you're talking about. There is a reason equipment destined for space has so much shielding and are made of very expensive materials including noble metals. extreme temperatures, radiation, and in low earth orbit there is atomic oxygen (which is very reactive).

Um, okay.

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