Composer's Workstation

[WhizzingGosh]

Hello LTT,

 

Long time watcher, first time poster. I will try to keep this as TL;DR avoidant as possible because less is more (we'll come back to that phrase at the end).

Here's my paint by number 1 thru 5 from the sticky:

 

1. Location and Unknown Budget
   This build will be conducted in the U.S. and will have an unknown budget. I would prefer staying close to best performance per dollar, unless spending a bit more allows more future proofing.
2. Aim
   I want to build a Intel-based composer's workstation using multiple Mini ITX systems as networked sound modules that are controlled by one (up to EATX) master system using Vienna Ensemble Pro 6 and Cubase Pro. The basic idea here is to load up instances of sample libraries and processor intensive VSTi and spread that across several barebones rigs so that the CPU strain can be offloaded and so that all of those resources are ready and available while producing music.
   Junkie XL has a similar setup with 6 sound module PCs and one master system.
3. Monitors
   Main displays: Samsung C34F791 34" Curved Displays (3440 x 1440)
   Why: I want an immersive experience with the option to arrange and mix simultaneously. I am open to changing this to one display if it is a 4k model. I would prefer it to be curved, but I don't want to spend thousands on it.
   Secondary displays: AOC I1601FWUX 15.6" IPS (1920 x 1080)
   Why: I would like to run ShareMouse on these machines so I can make adjustments as needed without using Remote Desktop to keep latency low. This means I will need a small format display for my Mini ITX systems purely for making those occasional adjustments. These, or something better, could be placed on my desk for seamless access to the desktops of the sound module PCs. 
4. Peripherals
   This is a "from the ground up" build, meaning everything is being planned and purchased from a starting point of having nothing. I still own my prized Logitech G9x and have enjoyed using it for navigating my studio sessions in the past, but I am interested to know if there is a successor to this mouse I should consider; one that is just as dependable but even more customizable, in terms of available buttons.
5. Why I Am Upgrading

• I need to arrange and compose music in an uncompromising digital environment.
• I need to have a dependable, powerful, future-forward network of machines that will serve me for the next decade or so and can be upgraded as necessary.
• I need a modern build plan to realize the goal of moving toward music production as a full time passion.
• I need guidance to determine what is a good plan versus what is merely an expensive plan.

Now we come back to the "less is more" part of it.

Junkie XL, Hans Zimmer, Current Value, and Deadmau5 all use multiple networked computers in their professional workstation setups. A network of slaves tied to one master over LAN is not a niche or esoteric thing to build in this context, but increases in computing power would seem to indicate the number of machines required to achieve the same results will be fewer. This is where I quickly become confused: how many systems, theoretically, should I aim for? 

 

Here is a thread over on Level1Techs about my initial ideas for this project (if you want more reading). I will also be asking about this on KVR to round out discussion of this plan and get more opinions.

And here are my two designs for the Mini ITX slave systems on PC Part Picker (yes, I know I don't need to include Optane in the Z370, but who knows I might need legacy drives at some point):

• Z370 Build: VE Pro Sound Module PC
• X299 Build: VE Pro X299 Sound Module PC

No AMD

Latency is huge on Ryzen, unfortunately. Because of the NUMA on Threadripper, the per core performance, floating point throughput, and overall Dawbench scores are mighty sad when compared to the 8700K, 7820X, and anything higher from Intel. My old system that is long since past dead was an AMD 9950 quad and simply moving from that entire PC tower to a Core i7 MacBook a couple of years later was enough to experience a nearly 4x performance boost over what I thought was a powerful option from AMD at the time. The playing field is much more level now, but in terms of audio that demands low latency, Intel easily still wins.

 

Preferably X299

I had contemplated building everything using an 8700K, like the Z370 build. This was because per core performance, number of cores, possible overclock, and performance per dollar all seemed to line up within that one chip. But since the price difference between the two PC Part Picker lists is less than $300 (at current prices), I would opt for the X299 option because, for a nominal added cost, I could get more lifespan out of an LGA-2066 design. Even if the Z370 option is a better performer due to cost considerations, it is still only preferable at the moment and pursuing it solely on lower cost ignores the maturation of X299 moving forward. At least, that's my rationale for opting to go this route.

 

Water Cooling

I am aware that all systems in this network would benefit from or even require water cooling. I welcome this, having never built a water cooled system before and having taken great pride in seeing previous projects through to completion with my own two hands.

 

What Main System?

I think what I need the most help with aside from how many systems I would need is how to sensibly plan the master system that brings all of this together into one place. I do not currently see any benefit whatsoever in trying to run a 7980XE,  especially since that price tag exceeds the entire build of one of the Mini ITX modules. But you can try to convince me.

I can share more about that in this thread, but for now I'll let this information stand as a "rough draft" of my intentions.

 

Thanks for reading!

[Jurrunio]

X299 has pretty high latency actually, so 8700k is as good as it can get when it comes to low latency. Probably wait for Computex to see if the Z390 8core will come any time soon.

[WhizzingGosh]

48 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

X299 has pretty high latency actually, so 8700k is as good as it can get when it comes to low latency. Probably wait for Computex to see if the Z390 8core will come any time soon.

Thanks for the input!

It makes sense that a less complicated architecture would be fundamentally faster than something with a lot more pins and generally more cores/NUMA.

 

This leads me to two questions:

1. Would an LGA-1151 based system, let alone a network of them, stand up to the next 10 years of use?
2. Should I still build sound module PCs as Mini ITX given I need few frills, or should I use ATX to allow for more RAM or add-in cards?

Wayyy back all of two weeks ago, I had the insane concept of building a desk using two 1000d's as the supports. I still really, really want to do something that crazy, but it would make servicing any of the systems a nightmare. As it is, that case requires removal of the entire Mini ITX build to reach the main power supply if it dies for some reason. Not a fun thing.

 

What you've told me makes me think I should aim for an all 8700K architecture for every machine in the network, which would make sense in terms of stability between systems or running at a shared base clock speed. Not sure if that would even be a noteworthy factor in terms of current tech.

 

Can't wait to start diving into deeper discussion about this project. I should say up front that this build will take a long time to fully accomplish.

[brob]

Given the described architecture it makes no sense to go with X299 slaves. Nor would I suggest unlocked, overclocked cpu with AIO cooling.

 

Platform longevity is not materiaal as slaves should be fairly light builds that can easily be replaced or added as need and budget allows.

 

I'd suggest something like the following. A decent and quiet cpu cooler. Lower latency memory. Since the system has a max estimate power requirement of less than 150W, an excellent and quiet 450W psu. Windows 10 OEM licenses do no permit use in DIY builds, so a full version is more appropriate.

 

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel - Core i7-8700 3.2GHz 6-Core Processor  ($298.99 @ SuperBiiz) 
CPU Cooler: CRYORIG - H7 49.0 CFM CPU Cooler  ($34.89 @ OutletPC) 
Motherboard: Asus - ROG Strix H370-I Gaming Mini ITX LGA1151 Motherboard  ($132.02 @ Amazon) 
Memory: G.Skill - Ripjaws V Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4-3200 Memory  ($435.98 @ Newegg) 
Storage: Samsung - 970 Evo 250GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive  ($107.99 @ Amazon) 
Power Supply: SeaSonic - FOCUS Gold 450W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply  ($53.99 @ SuperBiiz) 
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Pro Full 32/64-bit  ($184.99 @ Newegg Business) 
Total: $1248.85
Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-06-01 02:03 EDT-0400

[WhizzingGosh]

10 minutes ago, brob said:

Given the described architecture it makes no sense to go with X299 slaves. Nor would I suggest unlocked, overclocked cpu with AIO cooling.

 

Platform longevity is not materiaal as slaves should be fairly light builds that can easily be replaced or added as need and budget allows.

 

I'd suggest something like the following. A decent and quiet cpu cooler. Lower latency memory. Since the system has a max estimate power requirement of less than 150W, an excellent and quiet 450W psu. Windows 10 OEM licenses do no permit use in DIY builds, so a full version is more appropriate.

 

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel - Core i7-8700 3.2GHz 6-Core Processor  ($298.99 @ SuperBiiz) 
CPU Cooler: CRYORIG - H7 49.0 CFM CPU Cooler  ($34.89 @ OutletPC) 
Motherboard: Asus - ROG Strix H370-I Gaming Mini ITX LGA1151 Motherboard  ($132.02 @ Amazon) 
Memory: G.Skill - Ripjaws V Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4-3200 Memory  ($435.98 @ Newegg) 
Storage: Samsung - 970 Evo 250GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive  ($107.99 @ Amazon) 
Power Supply: SeaSonic - FOCUS Gold 450W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply  ($53.99 @ SuperBiiz) 
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Pro Full 32/64-bit  ($184.99 @ Newegg Business) 
Total: $1248.85
Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-06-01 02:03 EDT-0400

Thank you @brob, excellent input on what makes more sense.

What would you suggest as a strategy for the main system, by contrast to the slave modules?
I think there is greater driver support on LGA-1151 than on LGA-2066, especially since hardware standards tend to change so slowly in the pro audio market.

[brob]

My initial thought was the "master" would have to be more powerful. But thinking about it, I'm not so sure. There's something to be said for using the same platform everywhere. Although I do think an ATX motherboard would probably make sense. 

 

 

[WhizzingGosh]

1 minute ago, brob said:

My initial thought was the "master" would have to be more powerful. But thinking about it, I'm not so sure. There's something to be said for using the same platform everywhere. Although I do think an ATX motherboard would probably make sense. 

 

 

That's sort of the direction I'm leaning as well @brob.

 

For example, the ATX boards can handle up to 64 GB ram, allowing each sound module PC to load more samples as they're upgraded.

Another thing to consider is adding cards to each machine, such as an RME Hammerfall DSP that furthers the VSTi count on each slave system, but I think these are more appropriate for the main system because they offload CPU calculations to dedicated chips connected through PCI-e slot. Why offload an offload, essentially.

But then, maybe a little of both to further the lifespan of the overall network going forward.

 

In the case of using ATX instead of Mini ITX, what sort of latency difference is there between the ATX chipsets (Z370, H370, etc)?

What board would you pick to replace the Strix in that list? I gather the fewer bells and whistles included the fewer latency issues the board will have.

Things like lighting, smart fan, etc. Am I wrong in thinking this?

[WhizzingGosh]

Here's a revision of the PCP list with a rough first pick of a no frills ATX that might work.

VE Pro Sound Module PC - ATX 1

 

I don't know what the difference is between the -P and the -A versions of the board without digging through their manuals, but it's actually cheaper to buy an ATX than the Mini ITX? Hmm. Seems like more board means more price, but guess not.

[WhizzingGosh]

I have just discovered this three part tutorial by Cory A. Robbins.

 

In that video at the beginning, he describes using (more or less) this server: Dell PowerEdge R710 Server

His had two 6 core Xeons in it, 128GB RAM, and 4 x 450GB SAS. The one linked has 8 x 300 GB SAS in it.

 

My thoughts on using old servers went something like this:

• Wow, Kontakt actually works on that hardware?
• It's cheap, but would I get burned by pricier server parts when servicing a clunky refurb unit?
• I'm going to be stacking these inside of rack mount cases anyway and those are near $100 each, empty...
• I don't like having to use 4U rack mount cases to fit my i7 coolers, this looks like a space saver with less headache...
• The videographer is a day job IT professional, so he has a more informed purchase decision than Joe Public...
• Why not just get some of these and save that money for the main system instead?

But then, I'm sure there are reasons not to buy these. Like, Xeons (even dual socket configs) being really weak compared to single socket Core i7 8700's. Or parts being iffy when dealing with refurb units. I'm sure there are a billion ways I could talk myself out of this, but it's very compelling and I'm wanting to say yes because of how much of a turn key it would be by comparison. It's over $500 in savings per system at fixed costs.

 

I think the case to be made here is that this option is a greater value, professionals are already using these units and it's working very well for them, and the parts are actually rated to last longer than the consumer market. So, I guess it makes more sense to go for a small batch of these and only focus on the details of the main system design.

 

What do you think?

[brob]

Mini-ITX is a more expensive format as engineering a full featured motherboard into such a small area is challenging. 

 

For ATX, I would suggest the Asus Z370-A motherboard rather than the P. It is better quality and designed for mainstream, non-gaming.use.

 

Optimal latency comes down to careful software configuration. The actual hardware differences between motherboards around the same price point tends to be rather small. Although it doesn't hurt to check a few reviews for particular performance levels.

 

Consider sticking with mainstream platforms. Older server platforms can be inexpensive but support is going to be more difficult and parts may be harder to find. Over time driver and software support is going to be better and more current with mainstream platforms.

 

Servers don't really fit in low noise environments. An i7 doesn't have to have a tall cpu cooler. The only real consideration is noise as shorter coolers tend to get louder as load increases. The Xeon X5675 in the linked Dell Poweredge is a 95W TDP part. It is generally going to generate more heat than the 65W TDP i7-8700. (Note, at load both cpu are going to have similar heat profiles.) Don't forget, the i7 is a more powerful processor. 

 

[WhizzingGosh]

15 hours ago, brob said:

Mini-ITX is a more expensive format as engineering a full featured motherboard into such a small area is challenging. 

 

For ATX, I would suggest the Asus Z370-A motherboard rather than the P. It is better quality and designed for mainstream, non-gaming.use.

 

Optimal latency comes down to careful software configuration. The actual hardware differences between motherboards around the same price point tends to be rather small. Although it doesn't hurt to check a few reviews for particular performance levels.

 

Consider sticking with mainstream platforms. Older server platforms can be inexpensive but support is going to be more difficult and parts may be harder to find. Over time driver and software support is going to be better and more current with mainstream platforms.

 

Servers don't really fit in low noise environments. An i7 doesn't have to have a tall cpu cooler. The only real consideration is noise as shorter coolers tend to get louder as load increases. The Xeon X5675 in the linked Dell Poweredge is a 95W TDP part. It is generally going to generate more heat than the 65W TDP i7-8700. (Note, at load both cpu are going to have similar heat profiles.) Don't forget, the i7 is a more powerful processor. 

 

Once again, @brob, your insight echoes my instinct. My gut said these things at first, despite the allure of a simpler, cheaper way.

 

I think that aiming for the Z370-A motherboard is a sound choice and also that the idea of using Core i7 8700 units would be both more powerful and more serviceable down the line. So I think in terms of committing to a list, I can say that the overall build of the sound module PCs as you defined them in PCP is one that I endorse. The only caveat is that the RAM doesn't need to be as fast as you've selected.

Since things are simply going to be more of a "set and forget" affair with these boxes (for the most part), memory capacity matters more than their speed. Also, overclocking is actually something I have heard is not wise within the calculation or streaming of audio simply because you want as stable and as steady of a clock as you can without any dropouts. That said, a speedy clock for a lot of VSTi is good, just in moderation.

 

I could go with the lowest CAS memory if I had a use case where I continually changed up what is loaded on each box, but due to the complexity of the templates involved, I wouldn't want to do that very often.

 

Here then is my tentative final PCP list for the Sound Module "slave" PCs:

VE Pro Sound Module PC - ATX 2

[brob]

I'm not comfortable with the memory choice. DDR4-2666 would be a better choice in my opinion. If you haven't seen https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Core_i7_8700K_Coffee_Lake_Memory_Performance_Benchmark_Analysis/11.html yet, it is worth reading at least the conclusions. Sadly the data collected is only useful in a general way to suggest patterns.

[WhizzingGosh]

22 hours ago, brob said:

I'm not comfortable with the memory choice. DDR4-2666 would be a better choice in my opinion. If you haven't seen https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Core_i7_8700K_Coffee_Lake_Memory_Performance_Benchmark_Analysis/11.html yet, it is worth reading at least the conclusions. Sadly the data collected is only useful in a general way to suggest patterns.

I skimmed the information listed on the conclusion page you linked and reset the memory to the one you had selected originally.

Will give it a more lengthy read, but it indicated going much further than 3200 gave very little improvement overall.

 

One thing I'm not clear on is whether this memory requires tweaking in the UEFI to see any real benefit. I'll have to look up how to do that as I wouldn't know what the right setting would be, or how to tell. I can see that it should be a completely independent process from CPU overclocking, which is good because I don't actually need the K series in these machines.

 

Here then is a revision / overwrite of the preceding list I posted previously.

Possibly the final verdict on a starting point?

VE Pro Sound Module PC - ATX 2

[brob]

There are 3 memory modules in the new list. I presume the singleton is in error. 

 

The memory supports XMP, Intel's eXtreme Memory Profile. Each memory kit has one or more "overclocking" profiles embedded. (In this case overclocking is defined as any memory speed over DDR4-2666.) Taking advantage of the advertised speed and timing requires enabling XMP in the BIOS. In some cases there may be more than one profile, so one may also choose amongst them.

[WhizzingGosh]

@brob Yep, thanks for the catch on that extra dimm. My mistake. Previously linked list updated.

 

This looks like a very solid build for the sound modules. It even affords me further DSP optimization using things like crazy add-in cards and the like, if I ever decide to go that route. The system design for these secondary PCs is really meant to not need to do that so much and rely mostly on the guts that are in the list to do the work.

 

I would prefer to place this in a 3U or even 2U case, but I like the idea of a very robust cooling option rather than some tiny thing that fits in a case that slim.

I will take a look and see what sorts of cooling solutions would fit in a 3U or even 2U case and then adjust the list one last time if I like what I see.