integer scaling

[Techicolors]

so i came across this bit about integer scaling for interpolating mismatched resolutions to native resolution of your display

 

https://www.change.org/p/nvidia-amd-nvidia-we-need-integer-scaling-via-graphics-driver

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/844905/geforce-drivers/integer-scaling-mode/

 

sounds particularly useful for running older games, or newer games where your setup cannot perform admirably with the native res of your display. this is handled by the driver side, so it appears no display-side involvement is required? 

this looks better than the normal bilinear scaling that's already used. 

[Glenwing]

15 minutes ago, Technicolors said:

so i came across this bit about integer scaling for interpolating mismatched resolutions to native resolution of your display

 

https://www.change.org/p/nvidia-amd-nvidia-we-need-integer-scaling-via-graphics-driver

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/844905/geforce-drivers/integer-scaling-mode/

 

sounds particularly useful for running older games, or newer games where your setup cannot perform admirably with the native res of your display. this is handled by the driver side, so it appears no display-side involvement is required? 

this looks better than the normal bilinear scaling that's already used. 

Yep. Since most of the time computers are using GPU scaling, if NVIDIA / AMD add scaling algorithm selection with a nearest-neighbor scaling option, then finally you will be able to use 4K displays to show 1080p content natively, regardless of how the monitor itself handles scaling. Something I didn't mention in my FAQ, probably should have. I remember noting those forum threads a long time ago though, so if the companies are aware of it, it doesn't seem to be a priority at this point.

[Mira Yurizaki]

Personally I'd rather have hqnx or something.

[Techicolors]

2 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Personally I'd rather have hqnx or something.

whats that? 

[Mira Yurizaki]

Just now, Technicolors said:

whats that? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_art_scaling_algorithms

 

I would like Waifu2 (yes that's a real thing) but that's a distributed computing algorithm it seems.

[MT_]

Fwiw, I published the “Nonblurry integer-ratio scaling” article — an attempt to explain the blur issue and collect and summarize all the important relevant information about the issue and nonblurry integer-ratio scaling by pixel duplication as a solution.

 

It contains a short TL;DR section, illustrative images, a Live Demo of nonblurry scaling, lists of partial and possible solutions, a list of indirect ways to encourage graphics-driver developers to implement lossless nonblurry scaling, and more.

[Techicolors]

1 hour ago, MT_ said:

Fwiw, I published the “Nonblurry integer-ratio scaling” article — an attempt to explain the blur issue and collect and summarize all the important relevant information about the issue and nonblurry integer-ratio scaling by pixel duplication as a solution.

 

It contains a short TL;DR section, illustrative images, a Live Demo of nonblurry scaling, lists of partial and possible solutions, a list of indirect ways to encourage graphics-driver developers to implement lossless nonblurry scaling, and more.

very nice article! think i'll note this page 

 

Quote

Some 4K TVs by Panasonic reportedly support displaying Full HD signal with no blur. For example, in the TX-55CX802B model, it is available via the “1080p Pixel by 4 pixels” option in the “Picture → Option Settings” menu. The feature is apparently intended solely for use with Full HD (1920×1080) resolution and does not work at different resolutions of input video signal such as 1280×720. That said, the similar smaller-size model — TX-50CX802 — does not have the feature. A similar feature is reportedly available in the “Graphics” mode in some models of 4K TVs by Sony (e. g. X900E).

this section reminds me of something - i think LG is developing their own upscaler in their OLED TVs. 

 

https://www.hardocp.com/news/2017/04/27/your_4k_tv_probably_only_converter_you_need

 

also that web demo may be a little exaggerated. i'll try to post some blurry vs non-blurry (native vs nonnative) images later on but the blurriness isn't that extensive, however it's still there and bothersome 

[MT_]

1 hour ago, Technicolors said:

very nice article! think i'll note this page

Thanks.

 

1 hour ago, Technicolors said:

LG is developing their own upscaler in their OLED TVs.

Fwiw, upscaling in TVs may work very differently compared with monitor- and GPU-powered scaling. Scaling in TVs may be based on some complex analysis of how the picture is changed in time, including motion directions, for the purpose of restoring details the lower-resolution picture does not have as is. This may lead to a lag unacceptably high for using such display as a monitor. In monitors, we need just to prevent losing sharpness due to blur unreasonable at integer ratios, and pixel duplication should work even faster than blurry bilinear or bicubic interpolation currently used in monitors and graphics drivers.

 

1 hour ago, Technicolors said:

that web demo may be a little exaggerated. i'll try to post some blurry vs non-blurry (native vs nonnative) images later on but the blurriness isn't that extensive, however it's still there and bothersome 

The main goal of the demo is to illustrate how non-blurry integer-ratio scaling should work. The blur option is a secondary feature. But the blur is done via stretching the original image by web browser itself, and the result looks exactly as blurry as GPU-based scaling — there is nothing exaggerated there. To be fair, scaling built into some 4K monitors like Dell P2415Q is slightly less blurry than GPU-powered scaling: this might be because GPU probably uses bicubic interpolation while monitor probably uses bilinear interpolation. Fwiw, the “Examples” section of the article contains photos of the same image displayed on the 4K monitor using different types of interpolation: nonblurry integer-ratio scaling, monitor-powered scaling, GPU-powered scaling.

[Techicolors]

40 minutes ago, MT_ said:

Fwiw, upscaling in TVs may work very differently compared with monitor- and GPU-powered scaling. Scaling in TVs may be based on some complex analysis of how the picture is changed in time, including motion directions, for the purpose of restoring details the lower-resolution picture does not have as is. This may lead to a lag unacceptably high for using such display as a monitor. In monitors, we need just to prevent losing sharpness due to blur unreasonable at integer ratios, and pixel duplication should work even faster than blurry bilinear or bicubic interpolation currently used in monitors and graphics drivers.

well TVs are getting there in regards of reducing input lag. though it's pretty limited to the higher end TVs. 

[MT_]

24 minutes ago, Technicolors said:

TVs are getting there in regards of reducing input lag. though it's pretty limited to the higher end TVs. 

Afaik, an acceptable input lag to use TV as a monitor is only achievable with advanced picture processing disabled. Anyway, it’s important to separate real-time processing (e.g. simple scaling) from non-real-time processing (e.g. advanced TV-specific FHD-to-4K conversion typically unneeded in monitors).

[your_breakfast]

4 hours ago, Technicolors said:

also that web demo may be a little exaggerated. i'll try to post some blurry vs non-blurry (native vs nonnative) images later on but the blurriness isn't that extensive, however it's still there and bothersome

It all depends on the scaling ratio. Try playing a 640x480 pixel art game on 8K and it will "give you eye cancer". Here is a comparison of different scaling ratios (640x480 on 8K results in a scaling ratio of 9x). Click on the image to see it in original size and without contortions.

 

[your_breakfast]

Are you people from Linustechtips still reading this?

With about 4 000 000 YouTube subscribers you could actually make a difference. Briefly explaining the problem and the solution to the public would significantly increase the chances of success. Of course petitions have virtually zero legal power, but they DO make a fuss. And fuss is what is needed right now.

So... ahem... yeah...

Some kind of cooperation would be welcome with open arms... :3

[Techicolors]

 

Are you people from Linustechtips still reading this?

With about 4 000 000 YouTube subscribers you could actually make a difference. Briefly explaining the problem and the solution to the public would significantly increase the chances of success. Of course petitions have virtually zero legal power, but they DO make a fuss. And fuss is what is needed right now.

So... ahem... yeah...

Some kind of cooperation would be welcome with open arms... :3

i suppose if Linus makes a video about this then it'll rise to prominence pretty fast. 

[your_breakfast]

 

i suppose if Linus makes a video about this then it'll rise to prominence pretty fast. 

Yeah... IF he does it... *shrugs*.

That would be the best case scenario. I would still be happy if he just adds a minute or two an other video though.

[Techicolors]

1 hour ago, your_breakfast said:

Yeah... IF he does it... *shrugs*.

That would be the best case scenario. I would still be happy if he just adds a minute or two an other video though.

nah, i think a full video on the topic would do better. 

[your_breakfast]

1 hour ago, Technicolors said:

nah, i think a full video on the topic would do better. 

Sure, that's why I called it "best case scenario".

*shrugs*

[your_breakfast]

20 hours ago, Technicolors said:

nah, i think a full video on the topic would do better. 

You have used this forum a lot. Do you know how to make sure that they at least take a look?

[your_breakfast]

Hello-o-o-o? Is anybody still out the-e-e-ere?

[Techicolors]

yes, we always need a bump 

[MT_]

Another demonstrative image for what it’s worth:

 

[your_breakfast]

The GPU manufacturers should have implemented this simple feature 10 years ago (surprisingly the old CRT-monitors were unaffected by the problem).

It's even easier to do it today. New GPU features like rendering to texture and GPGPU eliminate the need to make any changes to the hardware (specific evidence for this is in the comment #518 of the nVidia's forum topic mentioned above). All they need to do is to include the feature into the drivers.

 

Also the market of indie games is on the rise. And to say that indie games never use pixel art is as absurd as to say that the moon is made of cheese. Some developers include this scaling method into the games by themselves. But many other games and "all" the old games are still affected by the problem.

[Audicted]

Still can't believe this isn't a thing yet. Signed the hell out of those petitions. Bought a hp omen 17 a year ago with a 4k display and gtx 1070 hoping that 1080p would scale to 4k perfectly, but unfortunately the reality was far from what i have been told. (Everyone assured me that 1080p would scale to 4k perfectly since the "perfect square ratio").

Reality was a blurry mess. Gtx 1070 is not capable of 4k, i was aware of that, but not being able to scale it properly rendered the laptop useless for me. Not just for the games either, even simple softwares cannot take advantage of the windows 10 scaling and when you disable the scaling, again you are looking at a blurry mess. Even enabling quality upscaling in the nvidia inspector didn't make any difference.

 

the only workaround i could have found is playing games at 1440p with reshade lumasharpen filter.

[your_breakfast]

Welcome to a world where our wishful thinking is exploited to sell us stuff we don't even want. And they don't even have to lie to us.

[your_breakfast]

On 5/9/2017 at 12:12 AM, Glenwing said:

Yep. Since most of the time computers are using GPU scaling, if NVIDIA / AMD add scaling algorithm selection with a nearest-neighbor scaling option, then finally you will be able to use 4K displays to show 1080p content natively, regardless of how the monitor itself handles scaling. Something I didn't mention in my FAQ, probably should have. I remember noting those forum threads a long time ago though, so if the companies are aware of it, it doesn't seem to be a priority at this point.

So... ahem... are you people from linustechtips interested in this or not? This has been the one and only reply of yours so far (regarding this topic). Nobody truly knows whether you are on our side or not.

If you where then the whole story could get a dramatically powerful kick forward.

Isn't a discussion about topics like these the main reason why hardware reviewers like you exist in the fist place?

[Glenwing]

4 hours ago, your_breakfast said:

So... ahem... are you people from linustechtips interested in this or not? This has been the one and only reply of yours so far (regarding this topic). Nobody truly knows whether you are on our side or not.

If you where then the whole story could get a dramatically powerful kick forward.

Isn't a discussion about topics like these the main reason why hardware reviewers like you exist in the fist place?

I'm just a forum staff member, I'm not part of the LTT crew.