Laptop for engineering?

[Black Paladin]

Hi everyone. 

 

I am looking into purchasing a 15” workstation/gaming laptop for mechanical engineering school, research, and office work. I am doing my PhD and use CAD and other modeling software for my dissertation and current job. I have come across three laptops that would fit my needs but I would really want a very compelling argument in what I should actually be looking for. I have three laptops that I’m looking at now:

 

2017 MacBook Pro 15”

i7 quad core

16 GB RAM

512 GB SSD

Radeon 560

 

MSI We63 15”

i7 hexa core

16 GB RAM

512 GB SSD

Quadro P1000 or P2000

 

New Alienware 15”

i7 hexa core

16 GB RAM

Hybrid 126 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD

GeForce 1070

 

Software that I run:

COMSOL Multiphyics

AutoCAD

Matlab

 

I know Mac OS does not accommodate Solidworks and I can boot camp it so I don’t find that much of a problem. I love the interface of Mac and understand I won’t be able to upgrade anything and will have to use dongles for accessories. MSI have a very good price for the hexa core processor and I can upgrade RAM and storage as needed. Same with Alienware but the difference between these two are the graphics cards. I really can’t find a concrete answer to P1000 vs 1070 for modeling. I’m not much of a gamer on pc and one day I could do it but it’s not my immediate desire. Bottom line I need a machine for computing mid level models and being able to obtain results/answers and is reliable based on the specs. 

 

Thanks. 

[Christophe Corazza]

I use COMSOL as well on systems with Quadro graphics cards. If I'm not mistaken, COMSOL suggests to use Quadro as well, although it also runs perfectly fine on a GTX 1070.

[Dackzy]

I wouldn't recommend any of those machines. MSI workstations aren't that good, rather bad tbh, the Alienware has a basically useless GPU for CAD and the macbook only has a quad core, but a GPU you can use in CAD. Though the GPU matters the most if you do a render.

 

I would recommend looking at HP zbook, Dell precision 7k series or Lenovo ThinkPad P52. Granted not all of them are out yet.

 

Linus actually made a video that showed how poorly GTX GPUs handle CAD comapred to both normal AMD cards and their own quadro cards. Granted it isn't the best video, but it should give you a decent idea about the difference a quadro card can make.

 

A P1000 is like a gtx 1050 or so in games, but in renders it stomps on a 1080ti

 

Also 100% get a laptop where you can exspand the memory, 3D modeling is really something that enjoys memory. 8gb is duable, 16gb is decent, 32gb is pretty good, 64gb is just great.

[Christophe Corazza]

On 18-6-2018 at 7:20 PM, Dackzy said:

Linus actually made a video that showed how poorly GTX GPUs handle CAD comapred to both normal AMD cards and their own quadro cards. Granted it isn't the best video, but it should give you a decent idea about the difference a quadro card can make.

 

A P1000 is like a gtx 1050 or so in games, but in renders it stomps on a 1080ti

 

I completely agree. As I've said, COMSOL suggests Quadro cards for their software.

 

On 18-6-2018 at 7:20 PM, Dackzy said:

Also 100% get a laptop where you can exspand the memory, 3D modeling is really something that enjoys memory. 8gb is duable, 16gb is decent, 32gb is pretty good, 64gb is just great.

 

Simulations indeed adore memory

[Dackzy]

10 minutes ago, Christophe Corazza said:

 

I completely agree. As I've said, COMSOL suggests Quadro cards for theis software.

 

 

Simulations indeed adore memory

I think most 3D/CAD programs recommend Quadro even if they might have "support" for GTX, like autodesk programs.

 

I would probably start out with 16gb of ram and see if the projects are big enough to use most the ram.

[Black Paladin]

37 minutes ago, ONOTech said:

Based on specifications alone, I would choose the new alienware. The 1070 is a stronger card than the P1000.

How do you measure or determine which graphics card is better?

 

34 minutes ago, Christophe Corazza said:

I use COMSOL as well on systems with Quadro graphics cards. If I'm not mistaken, COMSOL suggests to use Quadro as well, although it also runs perfectly fine on a GTX 1070.

Have you ran any simulations on any of the Geforce graphics? If so how does it compare to the p1000? 

 

34 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

I wouldn't recommend any of those machines. MSI workstations aren't that good, rather bad tbh, the Alienware has a basically useless GPU for CAD and the macbook only has a quad core, but a GPU you can use in CAD. Though the GPU matters the most if you do a render.

 

I would recommend looking at HP zbook, Dell precision 7k series or Lenovo ThinkPad P52. Granted not all of them are out yet.

 

Linus actually made a video that showed how poorly GTX GPUs handle CAD comapred to both normal AMD cards and their own quadro cards. Granted it isn't the best video, but it should give you a decent idea about the difference a quadro card can make.

 

A P1000 is like a gtx 1050 or so in games, but in renders it stomps on a 1080ti

 

Also 100% get a laptop where you can exspand the memory, 3D modeling is really something that enjoys memory. 8gb is duable, 16gb is decent, 32gb is pretty good, 64gb is just great.

What’s the issue with the MSI workstations and what makes the Alienwares GPU useless? Does the GPU from the MacBook do a better job than the 1070 or P1000?

 

I watched the video many many times, but would the same apply to laptops as far as GPUs are concerned? In the video he does say Quadros are rendering better than the GTX series but does that only apply for rendering and not everything else? I’m. Or familiar with Specview so I don’t really know what his numbers are when comparing the GPUs

[Dackzy]

45 minutes ago, Black Paladin said:

How do you measure or determine which graphics card is better?

 

Have you ran any simulations on any of the Geforce graphics? If so how does it compare to the p1000? 

 

What’s the issue with the MSI workstations and what makes the Alienwares GPU useless? Does the GPU from the MacBook do a better job than the 1070 or P1000?

 

I watched the video many many times, but would the same apply to laptops as far as GPUs are concerned? In the video he does say Quadros are rendering better than the GTX series but does that only apply for rendering and not everything else? I’m. Or familiar with Specview so I don’t really know what his numbers are when comparing the GPUs

Well benchmarks is one way. Like the one Linus did, where you have lots of different GPUs do the same render, where you can see a P1000 beating out a 1080ti in CAD, and a 1080ti is a lot better than a 1070.

If it was a gaming benchmark, then you would see both the 1080ti and 1070 beating the P1000 with no problem.

 

Last time I did a fairly decently sized 3D render with 140 something parts my GTX 1080 would at max hit 28% usage and no boost, often just average around 10-15%. The reason why I maxed out at 28% is because Nvidia limits Geforce drivers a lot when it comes to 3D/CAD. Because if they didn't then they would have a hard time selling their Quadro cards. Remember a GTX 1050 and a P1000 is based upon the same chip, yet the P1000 cost the same as what 2-2.5 GTX 1050, that price difference is purely because of drivers. If I put a P1000 in my desktop or even a RX 580, then my render times go down, because suddenly the program can actually use the GPU to its full potentional, instead of under 1/3rd of it.

 

GPUs in Dekstops and Laptops are the same, granted the GPUs in laptops generally run at a lower clockspeed. So if the GTX cards in a desktop is getting beaten by a entry level Quadro, then the same will happen on the laptop side of things.

 

GPUs help with simulations, renders and when you need to turn/move your construction. For Simulations they become smoother and faster to run, for renders you are looking at a lower render time and for turning your contruction around it will be smoother, though it is a bit limited how much a GPU helps with just moving and turning your construction.

 

The MSI workstations run hot and are build poorly, they are basically just their gaming laptops with a quadro and a less flashy casing. The Alienware uses a GTX GPU and those GPUs aren't very useless in CAD, because as I said earlier Nvidia limits them with drivers and no you can't just get Quadro drivers to work with Geforce GTX cards.

 

To actually clarify even further a P1000 is a 1050 2gb with extra Vram. A 1050 2gb have fewer Cuda cores than a 1050 3gb. So if you want to know gaming performance then look up a 1050 2gb and remove maybe 5-10% performance because the P1000 runs at a lower clockspeed.

[Black Paladin]

46 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

Well benchmarks is one way. Like the one Linus did, where you have lots of different GPUs do the same render, where you can see a P1000 beating out a 1080ti in CAD, and a 1080ti is a lot better than a 1070.

If it was a gaming benchmark, then you would see both the 1080ti and 1070 beating the P1000 with no problem.

 

Last time I did a fairly decently sized 3D render with 140 something parts my GTX 1080 would at max hit 28% usage and no boost, often just average around 10-15%. The reason why I maxed out at 28% is because Nvidia limits Geforce drivers a lot when it comes to 3D/CAD. Because if they didn't then they would have a hard time selling their Quadro cards. Remember a GTX 1050 and a P1000 is based upon the same chip, yet the P1000 cost the same as what 2-2.5 GTX 1050, that price difference is purely because of drivers. If I put a P1000 in my desktop or even a RX 580, then my render times go down, because suddenly the program can actually use the GPU to its full potentional, instead of under 1/3rd of it.

 

GPUs in Dekstops and Laptops are the same, granted the GPUs in laptops generally run at a lower clockspeed. So if the GTX cards in a desktop is getting beaten by a entry level Quadro, then the same will happen on the laptop side of things.

 

GPUs help with simulations, renders and when you need to turn/move your construction. For Simulations they become smoother and faster to run, for renders you are looking at a lower render time and for turning your contruction around it will be smoother, though it is a bit limited how much a GPU helps with just moving and turning your construction.

 

The MSI workstations run hot and are build poorly, they are basically just their gaming laptops with a quadro and a less flashy casing. The Alienware uses a GTX GPU and those GPUs aren't very useless in CAD, because as I said earlier Nvidia limits them with drivers and no you can't just get Quadro drivers to work with Geforce GTX cards.

 

To actually clarify even further a P1000 is a 1050 2gb with extra Vram. A 1050 2gb have fewer Cuda cores than a 1050 3gb. So if you want to know gaming performance then look up a 1050 2gb and remove maybe 5-10% performance because the P1000 runs at a lower clockspeed.

Thea is that make some sense now. You mentioned I should aim for a Precision, zbook, or P52. Well those new models are not out yet with the 8th gen processors which include 2 extra cores. How much of a difference can that make compared to the quad cores?

[Christophe Corazza]

7 minutes ago, Black Paladin said:

Thea is that make some sense now. You mentioned I should aim for a Precision, zbook, or P52. Well those new models are not out yet with the 8th gen processors which include 2 extra cores. How much of a difference can that make compared to the quad cores?

 

Depending on how multi-threaded your simulations are, it can make a HUGE difference. Although, MatLab is horribly single threaded, so for this program you should aim for high clock speeds. Nevertheless, I would highly advise you to prioritise cores/threads over pure clock speed.

[Dackzy]

3 minutes ago, Black Paladin said:

Thea is that make some sense now. You mentioned I should aim for a Precision, zbook, or P52. Well those new models are not out yet with the 8th gen processors which include 2 extra cores. How much of a difference can that make compared to the quad cores?

It is hard to say exactly, but I would say that you should expect maybe 20% slower renders just because of the CPU, but the current workstation laptops have last gen Quadros in them, unless you go for the really expensive models. Overall you might be looking at 40-50% lower performance in renders (this is with the GPU factored in).

 

Last gen Quadro cards start with a M, current gen starts with a P.

 

If you are doing projects with more than like 50-60 parts, then I would recommend waiting for the new laptops, it will just be a smoother experience and a faster one too.

 

The new laptops should be here in a month and then the old laptops will also go on a sale. HP have already the new Zbooks on their site.

[Black Paladin]

46 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

It is hard to say exactly, but I would say that you should expect maybe 20% slower renders just because of the CPU, but the current workstation laptops have last gen Quadros in them, unless you go for the really expensive models. Overall you might be looking at 40-50% lower performance in renders (this is with the GPU factored in).

 

Last gen Quadro cards start with a M, current gen starts with a P.

 

If you are doing projects with more than like 50-60 parts, then I would recommend waiting for the new laptops, it will just be a smoother experience and a faster one too.

 

The new laptops should be here in a month and then the old laptops will also go on a sale. HP have already the new Zbooks on their site.

Thank you. That’s unfortunate the laptops are not available just yet as I am ready to get something new now. So in your opinion, should I go for a P series graphics card and not GeForce ?

[Dackzy]

11 hours ago, Black Paladin said:

Thank you. That’s unfortunate the laptops are not available just yet as I am ready to get something new now. So in your opinion, should I go for a P series graphics card and not GeForce ?

Defiantly go for a P series, it is the clear winner for the programs you are using.

Though if you can wait 2-4 weeks, then I would highly recommend doing that, you give up quite a bit of performance if you don't. Plus don't you have vacation or very soon vacation from the education?

[Black Paladin]

6 hours ago, Dackzy said:

Defiantly go for a P series, it is the clear winner for the programs you are using.

Though if you can wait 2-4 weeks, then I would highly recommend doing that, you give up quite a bit of performance if you don't. Plus don't you have vacation or very soon vacation from the education?

For reference later, is there a website or guide that will tel me which processors are comparable? For example the P1000 is equivalent to 1050 right? Then P2000 to 1060, etc but what about AMD graphics like the Pro 550 and 560?

[Dackzy]

29 minutes ago, Black Paladin said:

For reference later, is there a website or guide that will tel me which processors are comparable? For example the P1000 is equivalent to 1050 right? Then P2000 to 1060, etc but what about AMD graphics like the Pro 550 and 560?

The P2000 is inbetween a 1050ti and a 1060 in games.

 

For CPUs, then CPUs that start with 8 then it is 8th gen Intel and if they end with a H, then they are six core and then you can basically just look at specs. If a CPU starts with 7 then it is 7th gen Intel aka last gen and less powerful than 8th gen.

 

But benchmarks is the best way.

 

For AMD GPUs you also need to look up benchmarks and then see how it does, but a 560 is more powerful than 550. A 580 generally beats a 6gb 1060 in games and in CAD it beats a 1060 without any problems.

 

There are no website that just gives you everything, you need to do some research aka put some hours into it. If I were you then I would look for a i7 8750H and a P1000 or better. 

[Black Paladin]

3 hours ago, Dackzy said:

The P2000 is inbetween a 1050ti and a 1060 in games.

 

For CPUs, then CPUs that start with 8 then it is 8th gen Intel and if they end with a H, then they are six core and then you can basically just look at specs. If a CPU starts with 7 then it is 7th gen Intel aka last gen and less powerful than 8th gen.

 

But benchmarks is the best way.

 

For AMD GPUs you also need to look up benchmarks and then see how it does, but a 560 is more powerful than 550. A 580 generally beats a 6gb 1060 in games and in CAD it beats a 1060 without any problems.

 

There are no website that just gives you everything, you need to do some research aka put some hours into it. If I were you then I would look for a i7 8750H and a P1000 or better. 

Thank you so much for your help. I’ll try to wait to see what Dell, HP, and Lenovo have to offer. At this point I’m really leaning towards Lenovo or even MSI even if you said they overheat. I’m not a big fan of Dell or HP and I haven’t experienced anything negative from Lenovo or MSI. I would want a Mac because of the operating system but I see there are large amounts of problems people have with their design, specs, etc. 

[Dackzy]

9 hours ago, Black Paladin said:

Thank you so much for your help. I’ll try to wait to see what Dell, HP, and Lenovo have to offer. At this point I’m really leaning towards Lenovo or even MSI even if you said they overheat. I’m not a big fan of Dell or HP and I haven’t experienced anything negative from Lenovo or MSI. I would want a Mac because of the operating system but I see there are large amounts of problems people have with their design, specs, etc. 

Lenovo ThinkPads are among the best business and workstation laptops. MSI are among the worst, they are just build poorly and cooling is bad, they legit basically just use a more subtle design with their workstation laptops, they have done basically nothing to improve durability. Plus their batteries are tiny, the WE63 has a 51Whr battery, if we look at the current ThinkPad P51, then the smallest battery it offers is 66Whr and the biggest is 90Whr.

 

So by going with a MSI not only do you get a laptop that is build worse, performs worse under load, but it also doesn't last as long on battery. Sure the MSI is probably cheaper than a equally specced P52, zBook 15 G5 or Precision 7k series, but man there are also some drawbacks. Plus business support from Lenovo, Dell and even HP is a ton better than MSI

[Black Paladin]

On 6/20/2018 at 12:08 AM, Dackzy said:

Lenovo ThinkPads are among the best business and workstation laptops. MSI are among the worst, they are just build poorly and cooling is bad, they legit basically just use a more subtle design with their workstation laptops, they have done basically nothing to improve durability. Plus their batteries are tiny, the WE63 has a 51Whr battery, if we look at the current ThinkPad P51, then the smallest battery it offers is 66Whr and the biggest is 90Whr.

 

So by going with a MSI not only do you get a laptop that is build worse, performs worse under load, but it also doesn't last as long on battery. Sure the MSI is probably cheaper than a equally specced P52, zBook 15 G5 or Precision 7k series, but man there are also some drawbacks. Plus business support from Lenovo, Dell and even HP is a ton better than MSI

So I think I’ll go for the Lenovo. How much of a difference would the loss of 2 cores but with a Xeon i7 processor be compared to the new P52?

[Dackzy]

15 hours ago, Black Paladin said:

So I think I’ll go for the Lenovo. How much of a difference would the loss of 2 cores but with a Xeon i7 processor be compared to the new P52?

about 40% for multi core, but you also go from Pascal quadro to maxwell quadro, which is going to hurt a lot.

 

The main difference between a i7 and a Xeon from the same gen is basically just that the Xeon have support for ECC ram, unlike the i7. So unless you need ECC ram, then don't go for Xeon CPUs.

[Black Paladin]

So I purchased the P52 with the P2000 graphics. Less than two weeks of having it and within a week of using it the casing around the screen is splitting. I contacted them and I can get a brand new one or a refund. What should I do or whats recommended? Side note i need more than 17 GB of RAM for modeling

[Christophe Corazza]

4 hours ago, Black Paladin said:

So I purchased the P52 with the P2000 graphics. Less than two weeks of having it and within a week of using it the casing around the screen is splitting. I contacted them and I can get a brand new one or a refund. What should I do or whats recommended? Side note i need more than 17 GB of RAM for modeling

 

That's some real bad luck right there.

 

17 GB is indeed very low for every self-respecting CAD/CFD/etc. program  From the spec sheets, the P52 can have up to 128 GB DDR4 RAM. Trust me, depending on the type of simulation, even those 128 GB won't be sufficient.

So did your school indicate an estimate of how much RAM you probably need?

[TLCH723]

11 hours ago, Black Paladin said:

So I purchased the P52 with the P2000 graphics. Less than two weeks of having it and within a week of using it the casing around the screen is splitting. I contacted them and I can get a brand new one or a refund. What should I do or whats recommended? Side note i need more than 17 GB of RAM for modeling

Just RMA it. Sometime you just get a rotten egg. I know people who constantly having hw problems with their macbooks while I only had one hw problem involving an adapter out of 5 years.

[Christophe Corazza]

2 hours ago, TLCH723 said:

Just RMA it.

 

That's not the problem. As OP has mentioned in his post, he cen get a full refund or a brand new one.

The issue here is that @Black Paladin needs more RAM. So the question is: should he go for the brand new one, or get a refund and pay extra for a unit with more RAM.

[Christophe Corazza]

2 hours ago, TLCH723 said:

Just RMA it. Sometime you just get a rotten egg. I know people who constantly having hw problems with their macbooks while I only had one hw problem involving an adapter out of 5 years.

 

Although, I agree that he had just some bad luck with his Lenovo.

[Black Paladin]

9 hours ago, Christophe Corazza said:

 

That's some real bad luck right there.

 

17 GB is indeed very low for every self-respecting CAD/CFD/etc. program  From the spec sheets, the P52 can have up to 128 GB DDR4 RAM. Trust me, depending on the type of simulation, even those 128 GB won't be sufficient.

So did your school indicate an estimate of how much RAM you probably need?

Definitely bad luck. I don’t think I mentioned this in the post but I had a 2016 MacBook Pro that only lasted less than a week as it was overheating around 100 C without me using any type of programs. 

 

I’m a PHD student so all the modeling is on my side and I’m using a program that the school doesn’t support. I think going to 32 GB would be enough. I’m going to run some other simulations in the meantime to get a better estimate as my old computer couldn’t handle this stuff and crashed on me. 

2 hours ago, TLCH723 said:

Just RMA it. Sometime you just get a rotten egg. I know people who constantly having hw problems with their macbooks while I only had one hw problem involving an adapter out of 5 years.

I like Lenovo as th customer support has been great. With Mac, rather Simply Mac, they sold me a defective unit and it was a horrible experience. I waited almost two weeks for my refund. 

25 minutes ago, Christophe Corazza said:

 

That's not the problem. As OP has mentioned in his post, he cen get a full refund or a brand new one.

The issue here is that @Black Paladin needs more RAM. So the question is: should he go for the brand new one, or get a refund and pay extra for a unit with more RAM.

For Lenovo, upgrading RAM would be around $200. I did get a discount when I got the Lenovo so I paid roughly $2400 with tax. Do you guys think there’s something better at that price?

[Christophe Corazza]

2 hours ago, Black Paladin said:

I’m a PHD student so all the modeling is on my side and I’m using a program that the school doesn’t support. I think going to 32 GB would be enough. I’m going to run some other simulations in the meantime to get a better estimate as my old computer couldn’t handle this stuff and crashed on me. 

 

Doesn't your institution offer any help with the budget part of things?