Sonarworks True-Fi

[Guest]

Has anybody screwed around with Sonarworks True-Fi software? @CosmicCthulhu posted a detailed reflection back in January/17. I prefer screwing around with hardware solutions; however, this still seems like an intriguing product. The features:

(a) age & gender adapter.

(b) brand & model adapter.

(c) pay once. Does that include an update?

[Majestic]

Adjust the sound, how? Why not just use the software EQ of your onboard drivers.

[Dackzy]

When you EQ a headphone the THD will go up, which is a bad thing. I don't think that anyone would argue that a higher THD is good.

I would never ever touch something like that, and I can promise you that a sound engineer in a studio wouldn't touch it either. Hell some might even throw you out of the studio if you even suggest using something like that.

 

A EQ should only be used to make very minor adjustments for headphones. Plus every headphone respond differently to being EQed.

 

The best way to change how a song sounds is to change your headphones or speakers or change your DAC and amp, though changing DAC and amp is often not as noticeable as changing headphones or speakers.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Dackzy said:

When you EQ a headphone the THD will go up, which is a bad thing. I don't think that anyone would argue that a higher THD is good.

I would never ever touch something like that, and I can promise you that a sound engineer in a studio wouldn't touch it either. Hell some might even throw you out of the studio if you even suggest using something like that.

 

A EQ should only be used to make very minor adjustments for headphones. Plus every headphone respond differently to being EQed.

 

The best way to change how a song sounds is to change your headphones or speakers or change your DAC and amp, though changing DAC and amp is often not as noticeable as changing headphones or speakers.

Heh, interesting. On the vendor's website, they claim to market similar technologies to studios. I'll save my money for other shiny toys. @Dackzy ... thanks, eh.

[Spuriae]

19 hours ago, Dackzy said:

I can promise you that a sound engineer in a studio wouldn't touch it either. Hell some might even throw you out of the studio if you even suggest using something like that.

Considering that the job of mastering engineers is to apply filters to the audio, I somehow doubt that they'd be throwing anyone out of the studio for applying a filter to audio. Especially when a good linear phase FIR filter is as low distortion as it gets.

 

19 hours ago, Dackzy said:

A EQ should only be used to make very minor adjustments for headphones. Plus every headphone respond differently to being EQed.

Which is the point of Sonarworks: to design a different set of filters for each individual headphone.

 

19 hours ago, Dackzy said:

The best way to change how a song sounds is to change your headphones or speakers or change your DAC and amp, though changing DAC and amp is often not as noticeable as changing headphones or speakers.

Agreed. Then again, consider that the most audible part of a high-end DAC is usually the digital filter.

[Dackzy]

4 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

Considering that the job of mastering engineers is to apply filters to the audio, I somehow doubt that they'd be throwing anyone out of the studio for applying a filter to audio. Especially when a good linear phase FIR filter is as low distortion as it gets.

 

Which is the point of Sonarworks: to design a different set of filters for each individual headphone.

 

Agreed. Then again, consider that the most audible part of a high-end DAC is usually the digital filter.

Yes their job is to apply filters to the music, not a filter to their headphones. You can go and have a meeting with a sound engineer and if he is anything like the ones I have met then EQing a headphone is a sin and isn't tolerated, because it does fuck with headphone, even a headphone that repsond well to EQ becomes worse in some areas when you EQ it. It is a insanely fine balance between EQing and adding too much THD.

 

Sonarworks EQ are by no means small, not even close, some of them have like 5dB changes, a small EQ is like 2dB. Yes I have tried their free trial and it doesn't work well, I only mix because I find it fun, but I wouldn't even use it. 

 

But keep in mind headphones in studios are basically only used to check the mix for small flaws that the speakers won't really show and then to hear how the mix sounds with headphones. You can use basically any headphone you want (though all of the sound engineers I have met use headphones that measure relatively flat or very well balanced), but by EQing your headphones you might end up giving up detail and clarity for flatness and then they end up being worse for hearing the small flaws. 

 

Not that this whole thing really matters anyways, because you wouldn't find anyone that actually mixes a whole song with headphones.

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Dackzy said:

Yes their job is to apply filters to the music, not a filter to their headphones. You can go and have a meeting with a sound engineer and if he is anything like the ones I have met then EQing a headphone is a sin and isn't tolerated, because it does fuck with headphone, even a headphone that repsond well to EQ becomes worse in some areas when you EQ it. It is a insanely fine balance between EQing and adding too much THD.

 

Sonarworks EQ are by no means small, not even close, some of them have like 5dB changes, a small EQ is like 2dB. Yes I have tried their free trial and it doesn't work well, I only mix because I find it fun, but I wouldn't even use it. 

 

But keep in mind headphones in studios are basically only used to check the mix for small flaws that the speakers won't really show and then to hear how the mix sounds with headphones. You can use basically any headphone you want (though all of the sound engineers I have met use headphones that measure relatively flat or very well balanced), but by EQing your headphones you might end up giving up detail and clarity for flatness and then they end up being worse for hearing the small flaws. 

 

Not that this whole thing really matters anyways, because you wouldn't find anyone that actually mixes a whole song with headphones.

The software option sounded like a panacea. It ain't.   Re: mixing/mastering albums via 100% headphones -- nope.  That makes sense. As I understand it, mixing and mastering songs should involve listening them to different outputs (ex., iBuds, headphones, boom boxes) to see how the customer will perceive it.

 

It's just fun sh@t to look at.  Like a disco ball. 

[Spuriae]

18 hours ago, Dackzy said:

Yes their job is to apply filters to the music, not a filter to their headphones. You can go and have a meeting with a sound engineer and if he is anything like the ones I have met then EQing a headphone is a sin and isn't tolerated

Engineers who object to things like EQ and room correction software are usually more concerned with the mixes sounding too different on un-eq'd systems. I'm not arguing that EQ should be seen as a replacement for proper physical treatment; EQ can never fix resonance problems, and poorly applied EQ can cause additional problems.

18 hours ago, Dackzy said:

even a headphone that repsond well to EQ becomes worse in some areas when you EQ it.

Depends a lot on the headphone and specific tweak. Bass boosting a dynamic rarely works, since distortion should increase with driver excursion. Meanwhile bass boosting a planar/estat could lower distortion since the level increases faster than loss of control. Different systems have different relationships between level, frequency, and distortion.

19 hours ago, Dackzy said:

It is a insanely fine balance between EQing and adding too much THD.

 

Sonarworks EQ are by no means small, not even close, some of them have like 5dB changes, a small EQ is like 2dB.

HD800 filter distortion

A properly implemented digital filter should have negligible effects on (signal) harmonic distortion outside of what would be expected through pure amplitude adjustment. If the signal is interpolated well, it shouldn't matter how large the change is.

19 hours ago, Dackzy said:

Not that this whole thing really matters anyways, because you wouldn't find anyone that actually mixes a whole song with headphones.

Very true. Sonarworks' main product is room correction; the headphone adjustments are a side thing.

[Dackzy]

6 hours ago, PrometheanCat-1970 said:

The software option sounded like a panacea. It ain't.   Re: mixing/mastering albums via 100% headphones -- nope.  That makes sense. As I understand it, mixing and mastering songs should involve listening them to different outputs (ex., iBuds, headphones, boom boxes) to see how the customer will perceive it.

The main part of the mix will be done on studio monitors and then checking for flaws with headphones and then it will be tested with lots of different gear to hear how it sounds on that and then you basically do that until you have a "perfect" mix. This is actually part of the reason why I have a fairly wide range of headphones, IEMs and speakers. Most times when it sounds good with speakers it will sound good with headphones too.

6 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

Engineers who object to things like EQ and room correction software are usually more concerned with the mixes sounding too different on un-eq'd systems. I'm not arguing that EQ should be seen as a replacement for proper physical treatment; EQ can never fix resonance problems, and poorly applied EQ can cause additional problems.

I don't think any engineer is against some software room correction with speakers, since they need a flat response. Though it must be said that room correction with a EQ is basically impossibol once you go over like 1k, you would know this if you have tried to measure speakers and then apply a EQ to them. I personally have a room EQ from like 50Hz to 800Hz on my monitor speakers.

6 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

Depends a lot on the headphone and specific tweak. Bass boosting a dynamic rarely works, since distortion should increase with driver excursion. Meanwhile bass boosting a planar/estat could lower distortion since the level increases faster than loss of control. Different systems have different relationships between level, frequency, and distortion.

yes the "willingness" (lack of better word, but you probably get what I mean) for being EQed is different from headphone to headphone, there are a ton of things to factor when it comes to how well a headphone will respond to a EQ. I would from my experience say that a planar is generally more friendly when it comes to EQing. Though a lowering in distortion is rare IME, you gotta get the EQ just right to achive that, which isn't a easy thing to do. But it is again very minor tweaks.

 

My main problem with what SonarWorks is doing with the software EQ, is that it will lead people to think that they can suddenly turn any headphone into a reference class headphone, but there will always be fundamental flaws from the headphone that a EQ can't fix. Like you aren't suddenly going to get fast and tight bass if your headphones normally have sloppy slow bass. I have seen the people that think that this will and can turn their headphones into a completely different set. How they market things are also quite misleading, like the pic of a dude sitting with a measurement mic right up against a speaker or stuff like "studio sound"

[redsquirrel0249]

I don't know anything and everything about audio, but I'm experienced in fiddling with software equalizers for various headsets and I'm an experienced musician. I know equalizing (to flat, for example) in software doesn't do justice to a perfectly flat headphones (if such existed), but it's much better than buying lots of headphones up to the standard of quality you'd like imo. I'm not sure what to think of THD as it relates to digital filters, I think it would require a lot of real testing to determine that. One open-back headphone, one earphone for quality sound, another earphone for running, that's what I run. If I wanted something for different styles of music, I'd need three more headsets, three more earbuds, and I'd probably never settle on one for running. For specifics I own SHP9500 open back headphones, 1More triple driver earbuds, and some tennmak earbuds for running. Nothing fancy, but not quite casual, either.

 

I tried sonarworks with a demo on their site with my SHP9500s. SHPs have really weak bass, so I always run it with an equalizer. After having spent a lot of time equalizing my SHP9500s in software (just because I prefer flat listening, call me weird, but whatever), and I think it definitely takes the annoyance of setting each band out of the equation. The purchase price is a little high for such a small feature. Like mentioned above, it's really mainly for room correction. Since I've already got EQ profiles set, I don't think I'll get it, but I definitely think it's a worthwhile alternative to buying more listening devices or improving a speaker system.

[Hrodulf]

A bit late to the party, but here goes...

 

On 5/2/2018 at 8:02 AM, Dackzy said:

When you EQ a headphone the THD will go up, which is a bad thing. I don't think that anyone would argue that a higher THD is good.

Depends what kind of EQ you're doing. Driving a physical system harder will increase distortion, reducing energy for say, resonant peaks will reduce distortion.

 

The black line is post-EQ, grey is stock, both at 93dB SPL. Only below 30Hz distortion goes above what's generally considered as audible. Not sure if that will audible at 30Hz, tho. The filters themselves add no THD, it's just the driver being driven louder.

 

On 5/2/2018 at 8:02 AM, Dackzy said:

A EQ should only be used to make very minor adjustments for headphones.

Depends, how well built the headphone is. Usually more expensive cans can take more EQ due to increased headroom. We apply as much as it's needed with an overall limit for maximum boosts.

 

On 5/2/2018 at 8:02 AM, Dackzy said:

Plus every headphone respond differently to being EQed.

 

Not really. THD response is pretty predictable (until you run out of excursion), we look at that (and listen) to not go overboard. With that said we have chosen not to release some curves because the headphone in question would have some distortion that's impossible to get rid of, like rattling. Same goes for cans which are too different sample to sample.

 

On 5/2/2018 at 8:02 AM, Dackzy said:

I would never ever touch something like that, and I can promise you that a sound engineer in a studio wouldn't touch it either.

We're pretty okay with people choosing not to use our stuff, there's no product that's universally loved by everyone. With that said, our calibration is currently used by around 22k engineers around the world. Many Grammy winning guys rely on it as well, so there's a chance that you're already been listening to music made on a Sonarworks calibrated system.

 

On 5/3/2018 at 8:17 AM, Dackzy said:

Not that this whole thing really matters anyways, because you wouldn't find anyone that actually mixes a whole song with headphones.

 

How about Andrew Scheps? With the advent of electronic music, many folks have moved to headphones. It's not that they like it, but that's life - no/crappy room for speakers, working on the go... you name it. I'd say that 2/3rds of our clients use the headphone software.

 

On 5/4/2018 at 4:43 AM, Nimrodor said:

Meanwhile bass boosting a planar/estat could lower distortion since the level increases faster than loss of control. Different systems have different relationships between level, frequency, and distortion.

Have you encountered a physical system which linearises at higher energy levels? THD+N measurements can improve, because harmonics actually start poking out of the noise floor. As for magnetic planars, most respond really well to EQ due to tons of headroom and huge driver area, estats are different as they usually have very little excursion due to close proximity of stators to film.

 

On 5/4/2018 at 12:13 PM, Dackzy said:

I don't think any engineer is against some software room correction with speakers, since they need a flat response.

Sure, but how is that different from EQing a headphone? You're still wrangling a driver to play louder/softer, depending on the measurement and target response. Both are tricky to measure right, as you well know.

 

On 5/4/2018 at 12:13 PM, Dackzy said:

My main problem with what SonarWorks is doing with the software EQ, is that it will lead people to think that they can suddenly turn any headphone into a reference class headphone, but there will always be fundamental flaws from the headphone that a EQ can't fix. Like you aren't suddenly going to get fast and tight bass if your headphones normally have sloppy slow bass. I have seen the people that think that this will and can turn their headphones into a completely different set. How they market things are also quite misleading, like the pic of a dude sitting with a measurement mic right up against a speaker or stuff like "studio sound"

As per Floyd Toole, frequency response is the single most audible property of a playback system. If that's borked, then you can forget about phase/THD/group delay meaning squat. We've measured more than 2000 headphones and HD600/650 are about the only ones which are reference class, if you don't need to monitor sub-bass. Others will deviate from neutral up to +15dB (Beyer T1). When you say sloppy bass, it can mean many things - high THD in the low end, boosted bass? We can't fix THD unless it's accompanied by a boost. As for boosted bass, EQ will make it better both in frequency and time domain. The same goes for any minimum phase phenomenon.

 

As for marketing... it's marketing. People don't buy products from just gazing at the spec sheets, so they've come to expect some leeway. However the mic holding to the speaker cone is true to life - it's a measurement step which finds out distance between the monitors, noise floor and low end extension.

 

Cheers!