4-pin or 3-pin? Simple question.

[WoodenMarker]

44 minutes ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

How does a quiet environment make the reading of the fan noise quieter? Wouldn't it make it quieter in the perspective of louder noises? I understand testing isn't going to be perfect, but neither is the 19 dB reading on a fractal fan. It's not like I'm looking at poop fans either, I'm only looking at fans well backed by hardware.info, popular among users, or with good reviews otherwise.

 

I just figured extending fan range would be a good idea. What do you mean by acoustically smooth? The transitions between speeds, or the electrical noise of the fan's operation? And I'm planning on using anti-vibration mounts anyway, so plastic shouldn't make much of a difference, right?

 

Besides, plastic is a subjective point that I'd never be able to measure, anyway. If I try to research the plastic or get a review that talks about the plastic for every fan I consider, I'll be pulling my hair out before I find fans to buy. The one thing I'm totally tired of is trying to buy something with very simple criteria and needing put everyone's two cents under a microscope. I'm tired of looking at Abe Lincoln's face at such a high magnification.

 

I need something reasonable in loudness, with effective RPM range, efficient CFM through mesh (which I hear called static pressure, despite the inability for individuals to directly measure this statistic), a worthwhile price, and a decent aesthetic if I can get it.

Noise from a fan isn't isolated and is instead compounded with the background noise. A fan reading at 19dBA from an anechoic chamber would translate to a higher reading in a typical room setting.

I was referring to fan specs listed by manufacturers as not being wholly reliable or comparable due to lack of documentation on how they're measured. A 19dBA reading could be from 1cm from the fan or 10m. 

 

Acoustically smooth is an anecdotal way of describing the noise signature without a live recording. It sounds smoother and less rough. If personal experience isn't convincing enough, even Enermax lists a lower dBA reading for the Magma despite the same rpm. The reason why I mention the noise signature is because the dBA reading doesn't tell the full story. There are certain tones that blend into the background more easily than others. Sorry if I made it more confusing than necessary.

 

The plastic makes a difference since the resonance comes from the fan and not only from interacting with the case. The material being more resonant isn't subjective but how pleasant the fan sounds is. The material used isn't relevant in most comparisons but it is when referring to the Magma and Twister Cluster since they're otherwise very similar. 

The reason why I brought the Magma Advance up is because it makes a decent trade-off in higher noise for performance over the GP-12's whereas Twister Clusters are are more noisy for a similar improvement and not really worth it imo.

 

The GP-12's should've already fulfilled the criteria you're mentioning. If you were unsatisfied with them, you should tell us why so that we can recommend fans that don't have the same issues. 

 

Make sure to quote a post or tag a member when replying or else they won't get a notification that you replied to them.

[redsquirrel0249]

Right, but when you get a higher reading in a noisy room, that's because the literal noise floor is higher. It's just poor reading accuracy. The fan doesn't literally get louder among noise. 19dB is still 19dB, w/ or w/o background noise.

 

I understand there's more to sound than dB, I'm relatively experienced with audio. If i didn't understand it, I wouldn't have o-rings installed on my mechanical keyboard. A different pitch at the same volume can make a difference (or a different wave form, whatever it may be). I'm just trying to understand what you're attributing the sound to. Is it the electrical whine? Bearing noise? Air noise? Frame shake? Something I may not think of?

 

Oh, you're just comparing to the magma with the plastics thing. Got it. So then, what of the magmas? Worth the money? No?

 

Bottom line, I just thought I could get better fans for the value of $12 each. I got the F-12s because I could sell two fans for about $20 and get five fans for $25. I was getting my money's worth all around. To me, price to performance is everything. If it wasn't, I would've already bought a 1080 Ti, a high grade Intel processor, and 32 GB of Trident Z RGB RAM. I mean, if I can get head and shoulders above GP-12s by paying $8 more per fan (basically double airflow, better noise, better lifetime, better build, better bearing) and there isn't any other middle ground (that is, If I get the most value per dollar out of Noctuas), I may as well just get some black Noctuas.

[WoodenMarker]

6 minutes ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

The fan doesn't literally get louder among noise. 19dB is still 19dB, w/ or w/o background noise.

I'm just trying to understand what you're attributing the sound to. Is it the electrical whine? Bearing noise? Air noise? Frame shake? Something I may not think of?

Oh, you're just comparing to the magma with the plastics thing. Got it. So then, what of the magmas? Worth the money? No?

 

Bottom line, I just thought I could get better fans for the value of $12 each. I got the F-12s because I could sell two fans for about $20 and get five fans for $25. I was getting my money's worth all around. To me, price to performance is everything. 

The fan itself isn't noisier in a louder environment but that's not the point. The result will still be noisier than the spec might suggest and how much so isn't specified.

Part of the noise is from resonance within the frame and I'm guessing the motor for the rest.

 

$12 per fan can get you fans that either perform better or are quieter but not much in both if you're looking for a straight improvement. Which is most important to you?

Magmas perform well but aren't as quiet as GP-12's.

 

Make sure to quote a post or tag a member when replying or else they won't get a notification that you replied to them.

[redsquirrel0249]

@WoodenMarker That makes sense as to why it would be very difficult to compare data. Distance plays a factor, differing max speeds play a factor, and surrounding noise can skew a number higher like you mentioned, but I'd really be especially worried about artificially low numbers. That's really why I'm so frustrated with the fan shopping experience. I can look at numbers, but they aren't comparable, and opinions tint it further.

 

Well really, I imagine there is a limit to air cooling performance in the way of joules (or kelvin) per CFM or something like that. So at some point, an increase in CFM is basically worthless. like if I had a 300 CFM max setup, and somehow got it to 1000 CFM, I probably wouldn't see a huge drop in temps under load because I already have great airflow. Same if I then hiked it to 3000 net CFM. Maybe I'll make a post about that.

 

Sorry, thought you got notifications in threads you were participating in unless you opted out. I was excluding them because this thread has died at this point and it didn't seem essential to differentiate who I was speaking to.

[WoodenMarker]

1 minute ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

Well really, I imagine there is a limit to air cooling performance in the way of joules (or kelvin) per CFM or something like that. So at some point, an increase in CFM is basically worthless. like if I had a 300 CFM max setup, and somehow got it to 1000 CFM, I probably wouldn't see a huge drop in temps under load because I already have great airflow. Same if I then hiked it to 3000 net CFM. Maybe I'll make a post about that.

Sorry, thought you got notifications in threads you were participating in unless you opted out. I was excluding them because this thread has died at this point and it didn't seem essential to differentiate who I was speaking to.

Yeah, it's diminishing returns. There's a LTT video on it.

 

It's why the two GP-12's were already fine. You're not using hardware with particularly high power draw. 

I'd personally aim for lower noise and use 2-3 PW2's or NF-S12B's.

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/M6vZxr/be-quiet-pure-wings-2-120-870-cfm-120mm-fan-bl039

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/bKFPxr/noctua-case-fan-nfs12bredux1200pwm

 

Most active members opt out of the auto-follow feature since notifications start piling up once you've posted in many threads. It's normal to be following your own threads though. 

[redsquirrel0249]

@WoodenMarker I've watched that video before. That's why I was going to do three 120s in the front, one in back, one in top, maybe not one in top. However, it really just told me what I already knew. What I wanted was airflow information in detail. I could have told you that two in front and a couple in back and front is just as efficient as a maxed out top and front. Of course, with many computer specifics, you just have to buckle down and test them. But again, I'm not worried about fan setup, I'm worried about individual fan performance.

 

I know my hardware isn't crazy, I just want to take the best care of it I can. I figure the closer to room temp I am, the longer they'll last.

 

So why isn't a set of Pure Wings 2 (At about $12 a fan w/ shipping from superbiiz) a straight upgrade from the GP-12s? More airflow, same noise, same quality. Right? Basically? But even then, your recommendation for proper price to performance ratio is in the (normally) over $15 a fan range? Figured those were more high end than bang for your buck. But I suppose "bang for your buck" as far as cooling is concerned simply means functioning, right? But if I'm going to spend the $12 or so on PW2s, I might as well go for noctuas, since their bearings supposedly last about twice as long. With the F-12s, at least the durability makes the lower price worth it, because even if they break, their replacement is still cheaper than a noctua.

 

Also, I see all kinds of reviews about how quiet the F-12s are.

 

What is PWM sharing, btw?

 

Another question: why do you recommend the redux noctuas over the brown/black ones?

 

And yes, I know I automatically follow threads I post; that makes sense with the former point.

[WoodenMarker]

2 hours ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

So why isn't a set of Pure Wings 2 (At about $12 a fan w/ shipping from superbiiz) a straight upgrade from the GP-12s? More airflow, same noise, same quality. Right? Basically? But even then, your recommendation for proper price to performance ratio is in the (normally) over $15 a fan range? Figured those were more high end than bang for your buck. But I suppose "bang for your buck" as far as cooling is concerned simply means functioning, right? But if I'm going to spend the $12 or so on PW2s, I might as well go for noctuas, since their bearings supposedly last about twice as long.

 

With the F-12s, at least the durability makes the lower price worth it, because even if they break, their replacement is still cheaper than a noctua.

Also, I see all kinds of reviews about how quiet the F-12s are.

What is PWM sharing, btw?

Another question: why do you recommend the redux noctuas over the brown/black ones?

PW2's aren't more airflow at low rpm compared to GP-12's. 

Yes, it's about functionality as opposed to specs or theoretical performance in a vacuum --nevertheless, my recommendation is an educated guess as opposed to having tested this specific setup. Whether it's price / performance depends on what you mean by performance. If a fan is technically better but the realistic performance is similar but one is noticeably quieter, the quieter one should be the better pick. 

 

Noctuas are likely to stay quiet and last longer than their warranty. They're fans you can buy and expect not to replace.

There are plenty of user reviews describing generally-agreed-upon-as-loud fans as quiet and fan reviews that don't make direct comparisons but instead saying 'this works, 5/5'.

Arctic F12's are pretty middle of the road--slight straight upgrades from FN V2's if you have any experience with them. They're quiet depending on who you ask but not as quiet as GP-12's, PW2's, or NF-S12B's.

PWM sharing is literally what it says--sending the same pwm signal along the daisy chain.

NF-S12B's are cheaper. NF-S12A's are better but you won't notice a difference unless you swap out some of your other more noisy components. They're both very quiet.

[redsquirrel0249]

At max RPM, PW2s have better airflow at similar dB when compared to GP-12s according to PCPartPicker but I did confirm that's wrong according to us.hardware.info... I hate misinformation...

 

They're actually about the same, with GP-12s being a bit better in CFM/dB.

 

That's the problem: specs are functionality. Or rather, they should be. If value for me could be written as a unit, it would look like this:

Obviously I'd have to add modifiers to each value to get the perfect curve of performance, but you get the idea.

 

I agree with your statement about noticeable quality over marginal performance.

 

That's weird what you say about PWM sharing, because I read somewhere that Arctic F-12s don't support PWM sharing, but that's exactly what PWM is...

 

That's true on the price for NF-S-12B fans. Those might be the best value despite their slightly reduced performance against resistance. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

Two more questions @WoodenMarker: 3 120s or 2 140s? I think 3 120s look better and fit better in the Meshify C, but you can get more airflow at lower volume with 140s. At the same time, a third 120 would cover more vertical real estate and add to the airflow as well, enabling you to run at lower speeds and lower volume.

 

Second question: Do you think a foam layer and metal mesh warrant getting NA-F12s with significantly higher static pressure ratings? If so, do you think the industrial models present a better value with the higher maximum RPM?

[WoodenMarker]

14 minutes ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

That's weird what you say about PWM sharing, because I read somewhere that Arctic F-12s don't support PWM sharing, but that's exactly what PWM is...

Two more questions @WoodenMarker: 3 120s or 2 140s? I think 3 120s look better and fit better in the Meshify C, but you can get more airflow at lower volume with 140s. At the same time, a third 120 would cover more vertical real estate and add to the airflow as well, enabling you to run at lower speeds and lower volume.

Second question: Do you think a foam layer and metal mesh warrant getting NA-F12s with significantly higher static pressure ratings? If so, do you think the industrial models present a better value with the higher maximum RPM?

PWM Sharing Technology is Arctic's patented name for the daisy chaining used.

NF-S12B's are very quiet and there are few 140mm's that get as quiet. 3x 120mm's will be better. 140mm's are better when you can't fit more 120mm's or when the fan mounts available aren't well positioned.

NF-F12's wouldn't be as good as NF-S12B's. iPPC's aren't worth getting if you don't need the extra robust build and if you want quiet. They're not as quiet as the normal noctuas even at the same rpm due to the different motor. If you wanted the best of the best and didn't need fans immediately, NF-A12's would probably be better. 

 

[redsquirrel0249]

@WoodenMarker Ok, so wait for next gen. Good tip. You mention in that post that the mainstream Noctuas are rarely the best. Why? At least in durability, they seem to have the best.

 

I compared the CFM/dB value for the industrials and the redux models, and it seems like they're just as good. And why wouldn't F-12 models do well in that application compared to the S-12Bs? I know they technically move less air, but they do better through pressure, right?

 

This seems to be a very straightforward topic, it's just frustratingly nuanced.

[WoodenMarker]

7 hours ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

@WoodenMarker Ok, so wait for next gen. Good tip. You mention in that post that the mainstream Noctuas are rarely the best. Why? At least in durability, they seem to have the best.

 

I compared the CFM/dB value for the industrials and the redux models, and it seems like they're just as good. And why wouldn't F-12 models do well in that application compared to the S-12Bs? I know they technically move less air, but they do better through pressure, right?

 

This seems to be a very straightforward topic, it's just frustratingly nuanced.

As you mentioned, this discussion is nuanced. All fans have some degree of both static pressure and airflow. Designs that prioritize one will often sacrifice the other so most fans that are of good quality have trade-offs in different areas. NF-F12's are very skewed towards static pressure and NF-S12A's to airflow. Depending on the specific situation, a slightly different design might perform better overall. Durability is more or less important depending on the user. 

 

CFM/dB is one way to look at performance but it isn't a direct observation of how a fan performs in certain environments or how it the airflow affects temps. A fan's tonality also greatly affects how noisy a fan is in practice. NF-F12's in particular don't sound as smooth as many of Noctua's other fans.

More static pressure doesn't always translate to a noticeable improvement in performance. The best fan for the job has as much airflow as possible and enough static pressure for where it's being used. NF-S12B's have an alright amount of static pressure. 

[redsquirrel0249]

@WoodenMarker You neglected to answer my question: Why wouldn't an F-12 be the best, for example, clipped to a hyper 612 evo or similar super beefy heatsink? Why wouldn't NF-S12As be optimal as exhaust case fans with no obstructions? And durability is just an inevitable product of use and cannot be ignored in value. Even if you're only going to use a new car for 50,000 miles, the fact that the one you bought generally lasts 300,000 and is still under warranty increases it's resale value. I would say it is significant to everyone except those who effectively throw their used equipment in the garbage when they want an upgrade.

 

There's no way to know how much static pressure is "enough." If There was, it would make it easier. However, I think this brings up an important point: how do you look at static pressure? As a qualifier for the accompanying CFM to flow (i.e. a NF-F12 can only get air through that 612 evo if mm/H2O meets or exceeds a certain threshold), a modifier for how effectively the CFM value of air passes through any form of resistance (i.e. mm/H2O multiplied by CFM equals effective performance through heatsinks), or in some other way?

 

And if NF-F12s just aren't palatable as far as sound, would the P-12s work better, with an optimization for sound and pressure? They seem to be a great compromise. However, I'd have to get them in that terrible brown color. That's one thing I won't do. I'm not buying brown fans.

[WoodenMarker]

34 minutes ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

@WoodenMarker You neglected to answer my question: Why wouldn't an F-12 be the best, for example, clipped to a hyper 612 evo or similar super beefy heatsink? Why wouldn't NF-S12As be optimal as exhaust case fans with no obstructions? And durability is just an inevitable product of use and cannot be ignored in value.

 

I would say it is significant to everyone except those who effectively throw their used equipment in the garbage when they want an upgrade.

 

There's no way to know how much static pressure is "enough." If There was, it would make it easier. However, I think this brings up an important point: how do you look at static pressure? As a qualifier for the accompanying CFM to flow (i.e. a NF-F12 can only get air through that 612 evo if mm/H2O meets or exceeds a certain threshold), a modifier for how effectively the CFM value of air passes through any form of resistance (i.e. mm/H2O multiplied by CFM equals effective performance through heatsinks), or in some other way?

 

And if NF-F12s just aren't palatable as far as sound, would the P-12s work better, with an optimization for sound and pressure? They seem to be a great compromise. However, I'd have to get them in that terrible brown color. That's one thing I won't do. I'm not buying brown fans.

I did answer. There's no perfect fan for all situations and another fan might have enough static pressure, and more airflow than the NF-F12 for the noise on a particular cooler. 

There's no Hyper 612 Evo. There's a Hyper 612/S and a Hyper 612 V2. The 612/S has 45 fins and a higher fin density which would benefit from more static pressure whereas the 612 V2 has 31 fins and a lower fin density which wouldn't require as much static pressure.

For the 612/S, a higher static pressure fan like the NF-F12 would probably be best but the NF-P12 would probably be better for the 612 V2 since it can push a similar amount of air while being quieter. Even though the NF-P12 is better, it still might not be the best. There's often a slightly better fan for a specific use.

 

There are many people who sell or give their systems away and build a new one as opposed to reusing parts.

 

It's true that there's no easy way to tell how much static pressure is needed without testing. Static pressure in and of itself is a generalization. What's optimal will also change relative to the amount of airflow.

A minimal amount of static pressure is necessary to get any airflow through at all. Any amount of obstruction will limit airflow and static pressure can be used to determine how much airflow is limited. 

There's math that can be used to determine this but it's either too complicated to be practical or leaves out too many variables. I look at benchmarks instead and make an educated guess. 

 

NF-P12's sound better in isolation. It's better than the NF-F12 in some situations and worse in others. Very restrictive environments and very low rpm favors the NF-F12. 

[redsquirrel0249]

Quote

 Previous Noctua fans have had clear drawbacks. NF-F12's have relatively rough tonal acoustics. NF-S12A's are only optimal in few select situations. NF-P12's are good but rarely the best.

@WoodenMarker This is what you said and what I was quoting. It seemed you were suggesting that at each model type, something better was available. You did say durability doesn't matter to everyone, which I understand, but you didn't specify this statement:

 

2 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

Depending on the specific situation, a slightly different design might perform better overall

Well, in such a "specific situation" that I'm discussing with you, what "different design might perform better overall?"

 

Whatever the name is, I don't actually use one. I just heard it thrown around a few months ago. Brownie points for knowing how many fins it has, though. I just wanted to point at a general example of a relatively large heatsink when compared to the 212 and other modest models.

 

1 hour ago, WoodenMarker said:

There are many people who sell or give their systems away and build a new one as opposed to reusing parts.

This is exactly my point. Anyone who resells (or gives away, for that matter) should care about durability because of resale value. Obviously people are entitled to their opinion, but the preference of ignoring value is objectively inferior, when you break it down statistically. I know some people don't care. Some people don't care if they're organized or clean or nice, but not doing so clearly provides drawbacks to themselves ultimately.

 

1 hour ago, WoodenMarker said:

What's optimal will also change relative to the amount of airflow.

How is this so? The amount of static pressure needed for one of those 612 heatsinks doesn't change with less or more airflow. Or are you referring to the overall airflow of the case revolving around the fan in question? For example, given a particular current scenario for case fan arrangement, a certain CPU cooler might do better than one that is apparently better from a neutral point? If the latter is what you mean, I think it's a bit over complicated.

 

1 hour ago, WoodenMarker said:

I look at benchmarks instead and make an educated guess.

Are there benchmarks for cases? How are they framed and who makes them? Where do you find them? We already know they exist for fans...

 

1 hour ago, WoodenMarker said:

NF-P12's sound better in isolation. It's better than the NF-F12 in some situations and worse in others. Very restrictive environments and very low rpm favors the NF-F12.

Sounds like P-12s might be best for mesh. But back to the very first point I made with your quote:

 

Quote

...NF-P12's are good but rarely the best.

So is my situation just rare (I doubt this) and there is something that would be the best for a front case fan, or would you consider it optimal?

 

That Lars Stormback didn't have the P-12 or redux on the stat comparison chart against the new A-12 coming out, but if it's any indication of how it should perform, it seems like the new A-12 might simplify this choice significantly. That is, if they're not $30 a pop or poop brown.

 

Funny side note: your logo comes up when you google nf-a12x25 in images.

 

[WoodenMarker]

On 4/30/2018 at 6:55 PM, redsquirrel0249 said:

at each model type, something better was available. 

Well, in such a "specific situation" that I'm discussing with you, what "different design might perform better overall?"

 

 I just wanted to point at a general example of a relatively large heatsink when compared to the 212 and other modest models.

 

This is exactly my point. Anyone who resells (or gives away, for that matter) should care about durability because of resale value. Obviously people are entitled to their opinion, but the preference of ignoring value is objectively inferior, when you break it down statistically. I know some people don't care. Some people don't care if they're organized or clean or nice, but not doing so clearly provides drawbacks to themselves ultimately.

 

How is this so? The amount of static pressure needed for one of those 612 heatsinks doesn't change with less or more airflow

 

Are there benchmarks for cases? How are they framed and who makes them? Where do you find them? We already know they exist for fans...

 

Sounds like P-12s might be best for mesh. But back to the very first point I made with your quote:

 

That Lars Stormback didn't have the P-12 or redux on the stat comparison chart against the new A-12 coming out, but if it's any indication of how it should perform, it seems like the new A-12 might simplify this choice significantly. That is, if they're not $30 a pop or poop brown.

Yes, out of the many similar fans, it's often difficult to pick the exact best one.

The recommendations I gave you are what I think are the 'best overall' given the situation.

 

The heatsink's size is relevant but has less to do with the fan recommendation than the fin density.

 

Most people don't care about the durability of a fan if it means a higher initial price and that includes the person buying a used system. 

 

The amount of static pressure needed for one of those 612 heatsinks does change with less or more airflow. Resistance / friction is relative to airflow so the amount of static pressure needed to compensate follows.

 

There are  forum threads from individuals that compare a lineup of fans in a specific case. Gamers Nexus reviews cases and compares their cooling with a test system. For fan recommendations in a case, it's an educated guess of determining how restrictive a certain area of a case is compared to other tested examples. 

 

NF-P12's are good for some meshes. Different meshes provide different resistance. Puget has a test here: https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Effects-of-Grill-Patterns-on-Fan-Performance-Noise-107/

 

I'm guessing NF-A12's are going to be $30 each and poop brown as usual.

Here's how NF-P12's compare to NF-F12's and NF-S12A's: https://noctua.at/en/which_fan_is_right_for_me

I think there was a similar graph with plotted lines somewhere but I'm not sure if I'm misremembering.

The NF-S12A is a slight but straight upgrade to the NF-S12B.

 

Edit: They're totally $30.

 

[redsquirrel0249]

The recommendations you gave earlier? PW2 and S-12B PWM redux? Well that's why I've asked about the models I thought were better, and you've only made generalizations about my suggestions. I just want to rule out other models that seem very worthwhile.

 

And I understand it's fin density that really matters, I only brought up heatsinks as a quick reference, I didn't intend to be spot on with details simply because that's not what I'm concerned with. Ironically, beefy can be interpreted as both. Maybe when I buy an i9 and want to overclock, then I'll care about dotting my Ts and crossing my Is.

 

17 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

Most people don't care about the durability of a fan if it means a higher initial price and that includes the person buying a used system.

Again, I understand people don't care. I'm simply stating that such apathy is, in general, very silly. I don't know what public opinion about GPU durability is, but in my mind, it's rather significant, even if you can get something cheaper on eBay.

 

That makes sense about air friction. So higher static pressure not only does better with more resistance, but scales against that resistance at higher RPM better. Right? Interesting.So with that information, it seems right to extrapolate that higher static pressure would be more important for adequate high airflow through a mesh, right?

 

17 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

There are  forum threads from individuals that compare a lineup of fans in a specific case.

Please link me to a meshify one that includes relevant fans, I'm looking for one. I'm not an expert forum crawler by any means, and I detest reading useless rambling.

 

 

And your sited article doesn't help: I'm looking for static pressure vs. mesh, not airflow vs. mesh and 8 other grills. That doesn't tell me anything relevant to my decision or design. Well, it tells me that whatever fan they used was reduced to 89% when pulling through a mesh. It's marginally helpful given that they cite the Antec Tricool, but finding a solid static pressure rating for it is difficult. One forum sites it about 2.54mmH₂O, which is almost as good as the NF-F12 (albeit at a rather high RPM). I can't find any other stats about it, and all other discussions compare them to obscure models that I can't find stats for, either. This is almost as bad as trying to shop for IEMs or high-tier headphones. Everyone has their opinions, stats are few and far between, and even if there are stats, their impact is hard to perceive.

 

17 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

Here's how NF-P12's compare

I've already looked over that page multiple times. It's just a simplistic product comparison. The comparison I'm quoting was from your post of the Lars Stormback interview. $30 is way to much for a marginal improvement, by the way. Especially in that color. Bleh.

 

17 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

The NF-S12A is a slight but straight upgrade to the NF-S12B.

Right! That's why I'm asking about products that should be better than NF-S12A. It's clearly an airflow and dB optimized fan, so I doubt it's best for a double front mesh (metal and light dust filter foam).

 

Also, with regards to one of your previous statements, I found a reputable poster with a contrary opinion. You said:

On 4/29/2018 at 11:32 PM, WoodenMarker said:

NF-S12B's are very quiet and there are few 140mm's that get as quiet. 3x 120mm's will be better. 140mm's are better when you can't fit more 120mm's or when the fan mounts available aren't well positioned.

 

A person named doyll says this (you can read the thread here):

 

I always thought, based on tests I'd seen, that 140mm fans were, in general, quieter per CFM when compared to 120mm fans. That's something else I detest: contradictory information.

[WoodenMarker]

27 minutes ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

The recommendations you gave earlier? PW2 and S-12B PWM redux? Well that's why I've asked about the models I thought were better, and you've only made generalizations about my suggestions. I just want to rule out other models that seem very worthwhile.

That makes sense about air friction. So higher static pressure not only does better with more resistance, but scales against that resistance at higher RPM better. Right? Interesting.So with that information, it seems right to extrapolate that higher static pressure would be more important for adequate high airflow through a mesh, right?

 

Please link me to a meshify one that includes relevant fans, I'm looking for one. I'm not an expert forum crawler by any means, and I detest reading useless rambling.

And your sited article doesn't help: I'm looking for static pressure vs. mesh, not airflow vs. mesh and 8 other grills

Right! That's why I'm asking about products that should be better than NF-S12A.

 

Also, with regards to one of your previous statements, I found a reputable poster with a contrary opinion.

A person named doyll says this

I always thought, based on tests I'd seen, that 140mm fans were, in general, quieter per CFM when compared to 120mm fans. That's something else I detest: contradictory information.

Yes, those recommendations. You explained that you care about monetary value and colors so cheaper fans that does most of the same job was my recommendation.

More airflow = more resistance. More resistance requires more static pressure.

Case fans in general are low airflow in the grand scheme of things.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by relevant fans but here's a comparison between the stock configuration and 2x NF-A14's at the front: https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/3061-fractal-meshify-c-review-vs-define-c

There are few comprehensive tests. You should be willing to do research finding the scraps of data if you want to find such specific info.

'Static pressure vs. mesh' doesn't make sense. Static pressure is already a generalization and can't be isolated. 

I don't know which fan would be slightly better than the NF-S12A but there probably is one. It's a matter of probability due to the number of similar fans, your hearing, and the exact amount of which you prioritize acoustics relative to performance. You're asking for a specific answer despite a broad question.

 

Doyll didn't state a contrary opinion. NF-S12B's can get to a noise level lower than most 140mm's can. This is about minimum noise level and not airflow / noise. 

There are also very few 140mm's that are of a similar design to NF-S12B's --feel free to show me one when you find it because I've been looking. 

[redsquirrel0249]

1 hour ago, WoodenMarker said:

More airflow = more resistance. More resistance requires more static pressure.

@WoodenMarker can you be more specific? More airflow doesn't increase static pressure, otherwise it would be linear in all fans. Do you mean that, for higher quantities of airflow to pass through a given space, more static pressure is required? If so, isn't that exactly what I said already?

 

1 hour ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

So higher static pressure not only does better with more resistance, but scales against that resistance at higher RPM better. Right?

I ask "Right?" for you to confirm things, not restate them as if you're saying something different so I have to re-ask my question. It's simpler that way. Or, if you are saying something different, please correct me.

 

1 hour ago, WoodenMarker said:

by relevant fans

I mean fans that are worth considering, which is rather vague. I just hate looking at charts of obscure products that, by virtue of their existence on such a chart, seems to validate looking up more about them. However, when you ultimately have to do your own comparison with that product and the product your concerned with, there is little data or the product you're concerned with ends up having obvious superiority. Basically, charts that include lots of inferior models for, not no reason, because I understand it's what some people have, but irrelevant because of relative skews of pricing and performance. Just like headphones, there is such a massive quantity of fan models that I'd never be able to check them all. At least, I assume. I just don't want to be buried in a rabbit whole of stats and opinions by deciding to trust a chart.

 

I've already read the Gamers Nexus video and watched the article. Been there, done that. I need more info. Well, more specific info. Really, I just need to understand

1 hour ago, WoodenMarker said:

'Static pressure vs. mesh'

and by this I mean how much static pressure I need to get certain amounts of airflow through it. I understand static pressure and airflow both increase as the other increases. What I need to make my decision, however, is a chart that shows the curves of penetrating airflow (that is, effective airflow) for fan models with given static pressure values at the various available RPMs for a fan. This would illustrate what static pressure value you would want for a desired CFM and material. Obviously you can't test every material, but this seems like it would alleviate a lot of confusion if it was done for basic or popular items, like corsair heatsinks, certain cases, etc.

 

Static pressure may be a generalization about a fan model, but it would at least be able to be applied in the manner mentioned above, which I feel is the only effective way to answer my question at this point. Maybe I should learn more about static pressure and what it means, but it seems sufficient for the concepts at hand.

 

1 hour ago, WoodenMarker said:

a matter of probability due to the number of similar fans

What does probability have to do with it? This isn't the silicon lottery. I understand there is variance in the same model, but trying to account for that is impossible, and therefore silly. Besides, it applies to all things anyway. And if you're talking about probability between different fan types, I have no idea what you mean: please explain.

 

1 hour ago, WoodenMarker said:

Doyll didn't state a contrary opinion. NF-S12B's can get to a noise level lower than most 140mm's can.

Oh, well now you're specifying your opinion. But you definitely said 120mm fans are quieter than 140mm fans, and Doyll definitely said 140mm fans are quieter than 120mm fans. And even if you meant that in the first place, I'd like more information regarding such a claim. I mean, I believe 120mm fans would be quieter at equivalent airflow, but I really have no way of knowing without statistics and tests. And I was more concerned with performance than sound, but I'm interested to know about both.

 

 

Well, the A14 FLX CFM/dB ratio is 8% better than the S12B, but obviously it gets more complicated when comparing more than one fan. So I see your point. Still curious about Doyll's point of view.

 

 

So, to resimplify:

1. It seems the S-12Bs offer the best value for $12 or so compared to the $20 or so of other Noctuas. I don't question that, and I'll probably end up getting some.
2. I'm going to wait for the A-12x25 models to come out, even if just to see what they spec out as.
3. I still don't know if NF-F12s would be functionally superior for my mesh application than S-12Bs, but intuition indicates they're relegated to beefy heatsinks and would be overkill for mesh.
4. I feel like P12s are a viable option, as I would get more static pressure than S-12Bs but lower noise than F12s or A12s, along with a slightly increased RPM max at similar dB when compared to S-12Bs. What do you think?
5. I know, realistically, I'm not going to get exactly what I want as far as information, I just want to get as close as possible. Your opinion helps, though.
6. It seems best to get at least two different types of fans for exhaust and intake, and we've talked about intake. However, according to that puget article you linked, honeycomb is almost as restrictive as mesh, so I may not need two types. What do you think?
7. With regards to Doyll, he also mentioned 140mm fans producing better airflow (even in my circumstance), which doesn't make any sense. What do you think?

 

[WoodenMarker]

Quote

Do you mean that, for higher quantities of airflow to pass through a given space, more static pressure is required?

That's exactly what I said.

 

More airflow does increase static pressure. I think what you trying to say instead of 'static pressure' is the 'rate of which static pressure scales'. If that's not what you mean, I'm not sure where the miscommunication is coming from.

Quote

I ask "Right?" for you to confirm things, not restate them as if you're saying something different so I have to re-ask my question. It's simpler that way. Or, if you are saying something different, please correct me.

So higher static pressure not only does better with more resistance, but scales against that resistance at higher RPM better. Right?

What scales better than what? Please be more specific.

Quote

I mean fans that are worth considering, which is rather vague.

Exactly. You're asking for a specific answer despite a broad question.

Quote

by this I mean how much static pressure I need to get certain amounts of airflow through it

What I need to make my decision, however, is a chart that shows the curves of penetrating airflow (that is, effective airflow) for fan models with given static pressure values at the various available RPMs for a fan

Even if you specified the resistance and airflow, the math that can be used to determine it is either too complicated to be practical or leaves out too many variables. 

So what you're saying you need is not fan recommendations but instead data that probably doesn't exist yet.

Quote

Static pressure may be a generalization about a fan model

Maybe I should learn more about static pressure and what it means, but it seems sufficient for the concepts at hand.

Static pressure is a generalization in and of itself. Fluid dynamics can get pretty complicated.

No, it's not sufficient for anything other than generalizations.

Quote

What does probability have to do with it? This isn't the silicon lottery. I understand there is variance in the same model, but trying to account for that is impossible, and therefore silly. Besides, it applies to all things anyway. And if you're talking about probability between different fan types, I have no idea what you mean: please explain.

Trying to account for the vast number of combinations of different fans in any particular case is also impossible.

Quote

Oh, well now you're specifying your opinion. But you definitely said 120mm fans are quieter than 140mm fans, and Doyll definitely said 140mm fans are quieter than 120mm fans.

Neither I nor Doyll said either of those things. 

'120mm fans are quieter than 140mm fans' is effectively 'ALL 120mm fans are quieter than ALL 140mm fans' and that wasn't stated in either of our posts.

Quote

CFM/dB

If that's your only criteria, feel free to just rely on that.

Quote

I feel like P12s are a viable option, as I would get lower noise than A12s. What do you think?

It seems best to get at least two different types of fans for exhaust and intake, and we've talked about intake. However, according to that puget article you linked, honeycomb is almost as restrictive as mesh, so I may not need two types. What do you think?

I doubt they're quieter than A12's. Time will tell. Noctua's page on the pros and cons of their three 120mm fans still stands. It comes down to how much you value performance and acoustics.

 

I don't prefer to quote using this format since it's more difficult to keep things clear and concise but it's getting increasingly messy and difficult to reply.

[redsquirrel0249]

@WoodenMarker Sorry, misunderstood usage of static pressure. It's an odd word, because it both refers to a statistic of fans and a phenomenon of airflow. That's where the confusion was. I thought you were saying more fan airflow means the fan has a higher static pressure statistic, which didn't make sense. I understand what you're saying and I agree. lol

 

When referring to CFM of high static pressure fans scaling better at higher RPMs, I'm comparing it to lower (or moderate) static pressure fans. The way I see it, resistance of fans takes a percentage off total CFM and the static pressure capability of a fan reduces that percentage, so static pressure of a fan has a more noticable benefit the more difficult the resistance is, right?

 

2 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

You're asking for a specific answer despite a broad question.

Well, a broad search with clear terms can yield very specific results. The thing about "relevant" products is many people let themselves be too subjective about what products are worth looking at. Most people are happy if it "works for me" or they've "used it before and it did fine." Obviously this isn't everyone, and it's better with computer parts than with headphones and IEMs, but many forum posts and videos suffer from subjectivity in that matter. Of course, there's nothing wrong with an opinion, but it shouldn't get in the way of calling something the best if it really is the best (if something were). Those NF-A12x25s are probably going to be really great, but it's my opinion that brown is a gross color and I don't want it.

 

But I'd say I'm looking for something very specific, but it's just not in well-indexed terms. There's no stat on PCPartPicker for price to performance ratio, most fans don't have static pressure ratings even, and no case gives static pressure for it's interior against each wall. Now obviously there can be many options that could meet my criteria that are at different price points, but I'd say price to performance is most vague of my criteria because it's the most difficult to determine.

 

2 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

the math that can be used to determine it is either too complicated to be practical or leaves out too many variables

When you said this earlier, I thought you were just making a presumption about why people don't produce the data. I didn't know you were making an observation about the actual inability to produce it. So it comes down to fluid dynamics being complicated? Ok, I can understand that. I imagine the material, thickness, surface shape, air temperature, surrounding pressure, etc. are all factors in such a process. I guess static pressure of a fan just feels like a unit I have no bearing for. It's like if I made up a unit called a wazooker and told you my room was 137 square wazookers. You could generalize based on principles of architecture, but any basis for such is relative to that guess. With that information, you have no idea how big or small my room is. So I guess I'll just spend a lot of time researching it.

 

I'm not trying to account for all sorts of fan types, except those which present CFM, dB, and price on par with the NF-12B that's set the standard of this discussion. That should narrow it down by quite a lot. Even if it doesn't, it should present enough other suitable options so as to narrow the margin of loss to a potentially superior model that one might have ignored to a nearly nonexistent size.

 

Doyll does generalize that 140mm fans make less noise than 120mm fans, but I did misquote you.

 

And I obviously can't rely on CFM/dB alone. I don't know why you quoted that, because I agreed with your point in that line. I know static pressure is more important in my case, so that's what I'm focusing on. Or are you just pointing out that my usage of CFM/dB is stupid? If so, you're welcome to help me understand it better. I'm trying to understand this the best I can, I'm sure it's a bit frustrating for both of us.

 

2 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

I doubt they're quieter than A12's.

Well if dB scales linearly with RPM, you're right about the x15 model, too. Forgot to scale for that. Whoops. Or maybe as in my previous paragraph such a unit is non sequitur. I don't know, but it seems legit. But the current P12 does have a better static pressure rating than the current A12.

 

And I do concede that it's easier to consider performance for a use case separate from dB, but with such a marginal difference between the Noctua fans, I initially figured it was inconsequential, but have realized there is a lot more that varies than just dB like frequency and loose variables in manufacturer testing. I think the effective CFM (factoring use case's need for static pressure) compared to dB is a clear indicator of quality, though.

 

That's interesting. I find separate quotes fulfill the purpose of quotes: to quickly refer to a specific part of a message that you're addressing. It makes it easier to address every part of a person's message. Discussions of this level of detail are complex by nature. But it's still organized, albeit a bit unsightly to look at with all of the gray boxes.

[WoodenMarker]

14 minutes ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

When referring to CFM of high static pressure fans scaling better at higher RPMs, I'm comparing it to lower (or moderate) static pressure fans. The way I see it, resistance of fans takes a percentage off total CFM and the static pressure capability of a fan reduces that percentage, so static pressure of a fan has a more noticable benefit the more difficult the resistance is, right?

no case gives static pressure for it's interior against each wall.

 

I'm not trying to account for all sorts of fan types, except those which present CFM, dB, and price on par with the NF-12B that's set the standard of this discussion. That should narrow it down by quite a lot. Even if it doesn't, it should present enough other suitable options so as to narrow the margin of loss to a potentially superior model that one might have ignored to a nearly nonexistent size.

Doyll does generalize that 140mm fans make less noise than 120mm fans, but I did misquote you.

 

And I obviously can't rely on CFM/dB alone. I know static pressure is more important in my case, so that's what I'm focusing on.

Well if dB scales linearly with RPM, you're right about the x15 model, too.

 

And I do concede that it's easier to consider performance for a use case separate from dB, but with such a marginal difference between the Noctua fans, I initially figured it was inconsequential, but have realized there is a lot more that varies than just dB like frequency and loose variables in manufacturer testing.

 

I think the effective CFM (factoring use case's need for static pressure) compared to dB is a clear indicator of quality, though.

Yes, static pressure is more beneficial when there's more resistance but how much so is hard to determine without testing.

Giving a case a static pressure rating doesn't make sense. It doesn't move and is the object which static pressure is measured against. Static pressure is also equal in all directions so a measurement for each wall also doesn't make sense.

If you mean the resistance of a mesh, it depends on the airflow being tested. Here's an example of how it can be measured: http://ateam.lbl.gov/hightech/fumehood/students/su99/roberts/Roberts_Fume_Hood.pdf

You can probably see that such a spec would be cumbersome to measure and not be useful for most consumers.

 

dBA rating aside, there aren't many fans as quiet as the NF-S12B. The tonality is great and it sounds quieter than other fans at similar dBA ratings imo. 

The NF-S12A is probably the quietest fan I've come across and it's about as good as it gets when the situation is appropriate-- little to no restriction being optimal. It's a rather extreme blade design and there are few fans with similar blades and fewer still that also have a similarly excellent motor and bearings.

In this case, the mesh provides a sort of restriction which brings performance down by some amount. I'd imagine this brings it closer to many other quiet fans in terms of performance and how it'll sound against the mesh compared to other fans is difficult to predict.

Doyll said that 2x 140mm's of similar fan designs are better than 3x 120mm's. As I mentioned earlier, I haven't seen any 140mm's with a similar design to the NF-S12B.

 

How do you know static pressure is more important in your case?

dB scale is logarithmic and it doesn't scale linearly with rpm.

 

There's a marginal difference between Noctua fans if you're referring to similar models like the NF-S12A and the NF-S12B. If you mean other Noctua fans like the NF-F12 in comparison, they're very different in tonality. The NF-F12 and NF-S12A's designs are nearly opposite ends of a spectrum.

Here's a good explanation and breakdown for the different sources that make up fan noise:

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/193723/determine-fan-sound-db-based-on-its-rotational-speed-rpm

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Acoustics/Noise_from_Cooling_Fans

 

Effective CFM isn't easy to determine without testing.

[WoodenMarker]

I've been trying to find a document that explained the general benefits of using larger vs. smaller fans for noise / performance but don't remember where I found it.

If I'm not misremembering, smaller fans tend to be more efficient and quieter than larger fans when other factors are isolated. There's a bit of discussion on that and resulting higher or lower frequencies in these articles but it wasn't as comprehensive as the article I remember reading.

 

Here are some good docs below if you want to read into this further:

http://www.mne.psu.edu/lamancusa/me458/11_fan.pdf

http://www.jeacoustics.com/library/72-Evans.pdf

https://www.digikey.sg/Web Export/Supplier Content/ComairRotron_25/PDF/Comair_Noise_Acoustic.pdf

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy03osti/29166.pdf

 

The 4th article is another way to saying what I've been trying to explain:

Quote

Fans are usually selected from a range of models and sizes, rather than designed specifically for a particular application. Fan selection is based on calculating the airflow and pressure requirements of a system, then finding a fan of the right design and materials to meet these requirements. Unfortunately, there is a high level of uncertainty associated with predicting system airflow and pressure requirements. This uncertainty, combined with fouling effects and anticipated capacity expansion, encourages the tendency to increase the specified size of a fan/motor assembly.

Basically, it's very hard to find the optimal fan and the go-to method is to get something that's good enough and make an educated guess on the rest.

[redsquirrel0249]

@WoodenMarker I suppose static pressure ratings for a case would be dependent on pressure created by a fan, so that's why the stat can't exist independently. And a graph like I mentioned earlier isn't possible. However, the article you present seems to attempt a formula for such. Instead of case front, it's the metal mesh they have. They just require variables for output air speed, pressure in chamber, and mesh pattern density.

 

The abstract of that article seems to indicate what we've established about scaling static pressure with greater resistance, but they attempt to quantify it. Free hole area is what they use to quantify density of a mesh (which is somewhat simpler in the case of a repeating metal mesh), so I can see why such a variable would be difficult to calculate in my case, especially with a varying metal front pattern. Though, I don't think it would need to be as exact as a measurement of all free holes. I'm interested in the concept, and it seems, if one could develop such a formula for a particular case front, this could be used. But again, I don't know much about this except what I'm reading here.

 

You mention tonality of fans, and I imagine the flaws of such would be compounded with an increasing variety of fans in a case, right? For example, if I put three different types of fans in my case, there would be three distinct pitches, and that would probably make it sound louder, right? Just looking for your opinion on that one.

 

Speaking of Noctua fan models, this page was updated: https://noctua.at/en/which_fan_is_right_for_me

 

20 hours ago, WoodenMarker said:

2x 140mm's of similar fan designs

If he said this, he meant similar to each other, not similar to S-12Bs.

 

And I just imagine static pressure is more important because it has to pull through a material rather than through vents. Of course, this is just an assumption, mostly.

 

Derp, you're right about log dB. well that makes it a bit different, doesn't it?

 

Thanks for all of the articles. I have plenty to read. Two things left, then:

1. P12s better for mesh with the static pressure optimization in your opinion?
2. With puget citing honeycomb patterns (like rear exhaust) as almost as restrictive as mesh, do you think I need much static pressure for that? My intuition is no, given it's one clean layer rather than a plastic cage, foam mesh, and metal mesh.

 

My final plan seems (if A12x25s don't change my mind in any way) to be 3 P12s in the front, since they're better for pressure, and mesh requires more pressure than the honeycomb pattern at the exhaust, and two S-12Bs for rear and top exhaust.

 

[WoodenMarker]

8 minutes ago, redsquirrel0249 said:

@WoodenMarker I suppose static pressure ratings for a case would be dependent on pressure created by a fan, so that's why the stat can't exist independently. And a graph like I mentioned earlier isn't possible. However, the article you present seems to attempt a formula for such. Instead of case front, it's the metal mesh they have. They just require variables for output air speed, pressure in chamber, and mesh pattern density.

The abstract of that article seems to indicate what we've established about scaling static pressure with greater resistance, but they attempt to quantify it. Free hole area is what they use to quantify density of a mesh (which is somewhat simpler in the case of a repeating metal mesh), so I can see why such a variable would be difficult to calculate in my case, especially with a varying metal front pattern. Though, I don't think it would need to be as exact as a measurement of all free holes. I'm interested in the concept, and it seems, if one could develop such a formula for a particular case front, this could be used. But again, I don't know much about this except what I'm reading here.

 

You mention tonality of fans, and I imagine the flaws of such would be compounded with an increasing variety of fans in a case, right? For example, if I put three different types of fans in my case, there would be three distinct pitches, and that would probably make it sound louder, right? Just looking for your opinion on that one.

 

If he said this, he meant similar to each other, not similar to S-12Bs.

 

And I just imagine static pressure is more important because it has to pull through a material rather than through vents. Of course, this is just an assumption, mostly.

1. P12s better for mesh with the static pressure optimization in your opinion?
2. With puget citing honeycomb patterns (like rear exhaust) as almost as restrictive as mesh, do you think I need much static pressure for that? My intuition is no, given it's one clean layer rather than a plastic cage, foam mesh, and metal mesh.

There's definitely a way to measure how a mesh interferes with airflow but I think the answer might be too nuanced to be useful as a case spec.

How tones compound and which ends up being noisier or more annoying is hard to predict. I'm not sure if different tones would be louder but it's probably more noticeable. I recommend using the same fan when possible for consistency. 

 

Doyll referred to GP-12's and said that 140mm's are better compared to 120mm's of a similar design. He said this in the screencap you posted. Since there isn't a fan of similar design to the NF-S12B as far as I know, I don't think the statement is applicable.

 

Static pressure is necessary and so is airflow. They're co-dependent and neither is more important than the other. 

NF-P12's perform better through a mesh than NF-S12B's but they aren't as quiet so which is better depends on your priorities. 

As far as meshes goes, the Meshify C doesn't seem very restrictive. Gamers' Nexus front panel on / off tests show it to be better than some other cases.

[redsquirrel0249]

@WoodenMarker it's not about a tone being louder (or sounding louder), It's about the dissonance it creates.

 

Doyll didn't mention design I thought, he just generalized. And I'm not comparing it to your statement, I'm just curious about the validity of his, but you already addressed that with some articles anyway, so I'm not really worried.

 

I know static pressure and airflow are both necessary. But one can be more important when it comes to certain materials/situations. It's like right and left hands. They're both important, but if you don't have your right hand, you can't write (most people). For me, if I don't have a left hand, I can't play violin. They're equal importance generally, but in specific applications they shift in importance. In the context of the honeycomb, I'm just looking to quantify the relative importance of static pressure. again, hard to do, but I just wanted an opinion.

 

And yes, I was asking about performance for P12s. And I know the Meshify front isn't terrible, I'm just trying consider options and what will be effective for different areas.

 

Also, any idea why hardware.info tests would yield higher dB values for the S12B than P12?

 

Side note: are Noctua fans powered through molex or motherboard?