Balanced Audio

[Buurvrouw]

Hello to my fellow audio komrades,

 

I have a question about balanced audio that I can't seem to get answered on Google. It's very hard to find an answer to my question over there.

Í recently bough a Shanling M3S, that DAP has a balanced 2.5mm connection. Now my headphone the Sony MDR-1A is balanced. The only thing what I need is 2x a 4 pole connector. 2.5mm to 3.5mm.

 

I've heard that the cable from Sony is differently terminated. Can someone demistify this one? I really want to know, because I want to make the cable myself.

I have already made a single ended 3 pole stereo cable with success, that was easy. 4 pole is easy too if the termination is the same on both sides, not crossed or something like that.

 

Now the big questions are: will the dual amp in the Shanling blow up if the termination of the cable differs from the termination in the headphone that is needed for balanced audio?

 

Or is it like that I don't get a good signal or any signal at all and I need to reterminate one end?

 

Or will my headphone blow up?

 

These questions are raised because of someone made a comment on a different Forum that the amps will blow up if not connected properly. I've also read on another website that it's no problem to use the balanced output with a normal single ended cable and nothing will be damage or blow up.

 

So I am kinda stuck here and buying a Sony cable, no thanks you, then I pay the same price as the headphones :'(

 

I hope someone can answer this question =)

 

 

[Buurvrouw]

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/balanced-headphones-w-an-unbalanced-amp.634108/page-2

 

This is a good Forum, there is one Statement:

 

plugging a single ended cable into a balanced amp is a very serious risk for the amp as you end up joining 2 wires that really shouldn't meet. as explained here:

 

I can understand that, but what if I just make a 4 pole cable and both sides are connected the same way (checking with a multimeter ofcourse). Then it's not a single ended cable, it's a balanced cable right?

 

Please correct me if I am wrong!

[GamerDude]

I'll bump this for ya, hopefully, someone with the right technical knowledge (like SSL perhaps) would come along and help you out.

[Max_Settings]

Wait till tomorrow, I'm busy ATM but I'll read through this tomorrow and do a bit of research to let you know.

[Buurvrouw]

Thanks to both of you

[anothertom]

From what I can gather, you're asking that if you DIY a 2.5mm TRRS to a 3.5mm TRRS adapter what will happen.

 

22 hours ago, Buurvrouw said:

will the dual amp in the Shanling blow up if the termination of the cable differs from the termination in the headphone that is needed for balanced audio?

Or is it like that I don't get a good signal or any signal at all and I need to reterminate one end?

 

Or will my headphone blow up?

So long as you maintain pin mapping then it will work properly. i.e. pin 1 goes to pin 1, pin 2 to pin 2 ... you are simply using it as an extension between the DAP and the headphones, it would just happen to have different connectors on each end..

 

If you mess up the termination then things can start to go wrong, with a balanced output it relies on a positive voltage and a negative voltage (one on each end of the driver) being of equal magnitude. If the right channel should have a +/- 0.5v and the left expecting a +/- 0.45v, if you had wired the right positive to the left negative then things will probably start to go wrong in the output stage. (values above are purely fictional and are only an example). This could involve current flowing backwards in certain scenarios, which it is not going to like. You would probably end up frying one of the op amps rather than damaging the headphones.

 

21 hours ago, Buurvrouw said:

plugging a single ended cable into a balanced amp is a very serious risk for the amp as you end up joining 2 wires that really shouldn't meet.

Shorting the two negative poles would be a bad idea, as they are no longer driving each channel individually, but driving both together (kind of), you would also cause current flow between the two negative poles when they are at different potentials. It would affect the sound produced by the headphones and would probably damage part of the amp's output stages.

 

21 hours ago, Buurvrouw said:

I can understand that, but what if I just make a 4 pole cable and both sides are connected the same way (checking with a multimeter ofcourse). Then it's not a single ended cable, it's a balanced cable right?

That would simply be a four core cable, a cable in and of itself has no properties further than how many cores it has. This then determines what it can be used for. A four core cable, with four pole connectors on both ends could be used for running two amplified channels (such as a balanced headphone).

 

 

Don't think I've embarrassed myself in this reply...

[Buurvrouw]

27 minutes ago, anothertom said:

From what I can gather, you're asking that if you DIY a 2.5mm TRRS to a 3.5mm TRRS adapter what will happen.

 

So long as you maintain pin mapping then it will work properly. i.e. pin 1 goes to pin 1, pin 2 to pin 2 ... you are simply using it as an extension between the DAP and the headphones, it would just happen to have different connectors on each end..

 

If you mess up the termination then things can start to go wrong, with a balanced output it relies on a positive voltage and a negative voltage (one on each end of the driver) being of equal magnitude. If the right channel should have a +/- 0.5v and the left expecting a +/- 0.45v, if you had wired the right positive to the left negative then things will probably start to go wrong in the output stage. (values above are purely fictional and are only an example). This could involve current flowing backwards in certain scenarios, which it is not going to like. You would probably end up frying one of the op amps rather than damaging the headphones.

 

Shorting the two negative poles would be a bad idea, as they are no longer driving each channel individually, but driving both together (kind of), you would also cause current flow between the two negative poles when they are at different potentials. It would affect the sound produced by the headphones and would probably damage part of the amp's output stages.

 

That would simply be a four core cable, a cable in and of itself has no properties further than how many cores it has. This then determines what it can be used for. A four core cable, with four pole connectors on both ends could be used for running two amplified channels (such as a balanced headphone).

 

 

Don't think I've embarrassed myself in this reply...

Thanks for you in depht explanation anothertom.

 

So 1on1 2on2 3on3 and 4on4, mirror the Image from the other side, like how I would say =)

 

and it doesn't matter how the headphone is wired up inside? Will this just work fine as long as everything is mirrored with eachother in the connectors?

 

Single ended output - 3 pole and 4 pole will work just fine

Balanced Output - Only a 4 pole will just work fine, both sides Need to be mirrored with eachother

Balanced Output - 3 pole will probably destroy the equipment.

 

So if I make the cable and connect everything 1on1 2on2 and so on I would get the balanced audio experience for my headphone?

 

Am I understanding this correctly?

[anothertom]

12 minutes ago, Buurvrouw said:

So 1on1 2on2 3on3 and 4on4,

Yes.

13 minutes ago, Buurvrouw said:

and it doesn't matter how the headphone is wired up inside?

So long as the drivers are wired separately, which any headphone advertised as balanced should be.

 

15 minutes ago, Buurvrouw said:

Single ended output - 3 pole and 4 pole will work just fine

Balanced Output - Only a 4 pole will just work fine, both sides Need to be mirrored with eachother

Balanced Output - 3 pole will probably destroy the equipment.

Yes

Yes

What would end up happening is one channel would likely just be shorted on it's output, but yes.

17 minutes ago, Buurvrouw said:

So if I make the cable and connect everything 1on1 2on2 and so on I would get the balanced audio experience for my headphone?

Yes. Although it isn't changing the audio, it's just a superior way to transmit signal, look up differential signalling for more info.

[Buurvrouw]

1 minute ago, anothertom said:

Yes.

So long as the drivers are wired separately, which any headphone advertised as balanced should be.

 

Yes

Yes

What would end up happening is one channel would likely just be shorted on it's output, but yes.

Yes. Although it isn't changing the audio, it's just a superior way to transmit signal, look up differential signalling for more info.

Thanks so much for your info, you saved me my brainjuice and maybe for some other people aswel!

 

That I know, it seperating the the ground signal and cancelling any of that noise floor and interference. It can, what a lof of them say expand the sound stage and tighten the low end, and make the mids and highs more clear and present. depending on the headphones ofcouse.

 

In general, all headphones are balanced, you just need to wire the cable correctly and have the proper uutput device, some you can't do easily without destroying them, and other you just need to re-wire and you are good to go =)

 

and and and, with MMCX IEM's it's even more easy, this because the cables for these are available all over the place for a fraction of the price in comparison with a single 4 pole balanced cable.

 

MMCX -> IEM's = 20€

Headphone = above 130€

 

makes no sense at all this in regard that they all do it with OCC-Silver bla bla bla. I read about that stuff a lot, just need a thick enough cable to run the current, with as less resistance as possible without sacrafising compatibility and user friendliness. Not that you use a cable that is like 8 AWG for a headhpones, that is rediculous xD.

 

Snake oil, I hate that, same with HDMI Cables (not the one with the processor in it that Linus Reviewed, that one worked)

 

Only thing that helps with having a better conductivity material is that you can make it thinner cable with the same resistance.

 

I need to get this of my back, this because there is a lot of bull crap / snake oil out there!

 

Don't believe everything that you are being told by the masses! Figure it out by yourself and you will come to astonishing conclusions and save a lot of Money!

 

That you, yes you can put in better gear

[anothertom]

3 minutes ago, Buurvrouw said:

it seperating the the ground signal and cancelling any of that noise floor and interference

Separating the ground, No. removing the reference to ground from the definition of the signal, yes.

 

4 minutes ago, Buurvrouw said:

It can, what a lof of them say expand the sound stage and tighten the low end, and make the mids and highs more clear and present.

No. It has zero effect on the signal. anyone who says otherwise is lying and relying on anecdotal evidence over any form of measurement.

 

You've chosen the wrong person to try and sell overpriced cables to. Once you're using a suitable gauge there is no difference between one cable and another. Unless you can show improved measurements, move along.

[Buurvrouw]

2 minutes ago, anothertom said:

You've chosen the wrong person to try and sell overpriced cables to. Once you're using a suitable gauge there is no difference between one cable and another. Unless you can show improved measurements, move along.

I agree!