Windows 7 vs 8

[Canoas]

No, you didn't. If you really think I can't fit over 280 programs on my start menu, you have forgotten that they are sorted by folders, where each folder can comfortably hold 32ish programs and I can fit 35 folders without having to scroll. 32*35 = over 1000. I don't need that many, but I do need more than 280. And since I can have that many, I don't need to have a folder within a folder, ever. And I'm not even considering the fact that I have direct access to my many inner computer options by way of this menu as well, such as Device Manager, Control Center, Administrative Tools, Network & Connections, etc etc.

Touching the scroll wheel is faster than opening a folder. If you complain about scrolling then it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to navigate between several folders as an alternative. But hey, forget scrolling, hit the page down key or the end key and that's it. NO SCROLLING WHATSOEVER. And right clicking the metro start button gives you more options than your old star menu has.

 

 

For my Taskbar, Windows + [Number] starts the program. I don't care where my mouse is. I don't need it. For my start menu, Windows -> Down arrow -> Letter -> right arrow -> letter and anything I want is open. I could probably do the same by simply typing a program by way of the search, but that's broken now thanks to Metro because it lists EVERYTHING, unless you tell it otherwise with the mouse. Which is irritating. I prefer it to only show programs/folders.  But it doesn't even list those as options. You could click the down arrow and search apps, but then it isn't universal and I have to transition to a whole new screen to find something.

Then use a search instead. Oh, it's broken for you? Funny, in metro I have different hotkeys for different searches. You can also use the keyboard to move through metro.

 

 

So.... on a screen with 280 total icons, in which I would have at least 160 to 420 (45% to over 100% meaning I'd have to scroll) covering said screen, without any way of making those go away unless I want to use Search all the time, I'm going to be able to see a background just as good as when I have no desktop icons on my desktop (because I have none since the start menu with folders is so spacious). That just doesn't make sense. They are color coded too, so there is no transparent space to see the background better. The edges are all that matter because they are all you would be able to see.

Actually, it's 288 assuming you're putting them in different collumns, but since you need 400+ icons readily available then you can just put them in a single group and you'll have your 400+ with no problem. But once again, if you're so afraid of touching the scroll and are so fond of the keyboard then, as I previously said, you just need to hit the page down or END key instead and BAM! you have 400+ new icon slots.

You're the one who said you put icons in your desktop, not me, so stop contradicting yourself. And why the hell are complaining about the metro not allowing you to see the desktop? It leaves your desktop completely clean and if you care that much about seeing your background while using metro then just use opacy. I also suggest you to ditch your start menu right away as it does not have the background you like so much.

 

 

Like I said, Windows -> Down arrow -> Letter -> right arrow -> letter and anything I want is open. I can hit that successively faster than I can move my mouse to what I want once I've memorized where what I want is. Thus, muscle memory. 

I hate using mouse. It takes time. The higher your resolution, the more time it will take unless you up DPI, and that affects your games (which is what gaming mice are for, but still) as well as screwing with your finer clicking accuracy.

1.create a shortcut, give it a 2 letter name

2.do it for every program

3.search -> type 2 letters -> enter

 

and your entire system is now useless. no mouse required, no muscle memory required, takes less time to arrange than ordering your several folders. If what you reallu want a pure keyboard experience then your system is simply subpar. Sure, metro isn't the best for an efficient non-mouse experience, but that's so very easily fixed.

 

 

Metro has no equivalent for keyboard use. That's why I don't like it. I can't just hit Windows + [number] and have a program up and it work. Unless it's on my Taskbar, which requires I use Desktop anyway and not apps that integrate with Metro. I have to use the mouse every time, and that's the deal breaker right there. Unless I use Search exclusively, but then what's the point of having a metro menu if I have to use Search all the time anyway? Plus the actual use of Search is actually hindered by the fact that it lists everything (meaning I have to type more rather than less) unless I change the settings each time to only search what I want. Which is more mouse movement.

It has, I just explained a simpler and yet more effective solution. The search is very much functional in metro, it's your start button that broke it.

 

 

Metro VS Desktop is the same as all "Dumbing down" features. Metro makes everything simple to use, and has high efficiency for noobs but no way to enhance that efficiency for people who use it a lot. While Desktop has lower efficiency for noobs, but a higher potential efficiency for the ones who know it's ins and outs. You can learn more, and thereby, do more with it, because there is more to learn.

Keyboard is more efficient than mouse. You move less of your body faster to do more. It's as simple as that. And Desktop is more conducive to that, unless I'm just missing some major Metro feature that doesn't immediately slap you in the face to say "Hey! Use me!".

There's no Metro VS Desktop, there's a metro interface vs old interface.

And no, mouse is more efficient than keyboard. The "noob" is actually you, anyone with a half decent aim will pinpoint the icon with a mouse as fast or even faster than you with much less effort. And anyone with half a brain would leave their hundreds of steam games in the steam library, which takes 1 second to open and another 3 seconds to pinpoint the game as opposed to cluttering your taskbar/starmenu/desktop with hundreds of icons that you will open maybe once per year if at all. And as I stated, the metro has a very very very simple alternative for pure-keyboard users, you're the one who chose to break it.

 

 

So, once again, metro start menu >old start menu.

[Vitalius]

-snip-

Question before I respond to the rest of it: When you say "in metro I have different hotkeys for different searches.", do you mean hotkeys, as in, a macro on your keyboard, a windows shortcut, or a program on windows that does something after you program it? Not sure which. 

If it's Windows shortcuts, what are they? I've looked up multiple lists of Windows 8 shortcuts in the past to make it more usable, but I've never seen ones that go straight to specific option searches (i.e. "just Programs", or "Just files" or "just settings" and not a mix of all of the above).

[Lukiose]

I absolutely hated Windows 8 but i tried out 8.1 and i liked it, definitely would go with 8.1 now for the performance gains over Win 7, only waiting for cheap ass offers as i'm not going to be paying $100 for it.

[Canoas]

Question before I respond to the rest of it: When you say "in metro I have different hotkeys for different searches.", do you mean hotkeys, as in, a macro on your keyboard, a windows shortcut, or a program on windows that does something after you program it? Not sure which. 

If it's Windows shortcuts, what are they? I've looked up multiple lists of Windows 8 shortcuts in the past to make it more usable, but I've never seen ones that go straight to specific option searches (i.e. "just Programs", or "Just files" or "just settings" and not a mix of all of the above).

windows+S/Q/F/W

 

EDIT: don't bother replying, I have no desire to continue this discussion.

[GoodBytes]

You can even do Win+Q on the desktop, and just a search bar show up, so that you don't need to go on the Start Screen for a simple search.

[Vitalius]

windows+S/Q/F/W

Thanks. I was just curious if there were a "program filter" option that you could only get with windows shortcuts. So, like, it would only list .exes. Not everything else. 

 

Touching the scroll wheel is faster than opening a folder. If you complain about scrolling then it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to navigate between several folders as an alternative. But hey, forget scrolling, hit the page down key or the end key and that's it. NO SCROLLING WHATSOEVER. And right clicking the metro start button gives you more options than your old star menu has.

But again, transitioning from 2 hands on keyboard (used to type/navigate faster) to Mouse + Keyboard is wasted time. And as I said, I wouldn't navigate through multiple folders. If by that, you mean through embedded folders (i.e. A folder within a folder). Windows Key -> [list of folders] -> Select 1 of them -> [list of programs]. None of the folders have a folder within them for that reason.

I'm lost as to what you mean by "Metro start button". Do you mean 8.1's start button on the Desktop? The Start icon that appears on the right when you hover in the top right corner? The Start Screen itself?

ClassicStart has a lot of options. Many more than both the old start button and Metro offers.

 

Then use a search instead. Oh, it's broken for you? Funny, in metro I have different hotkeys for different searches. You can also use the keyboard to move through metro.

Well, apparently it's not broken for me. I just didn't understand how it originally worked. It said "Everything" above it. I take that to mean my entire computer. So I fully expect "skyrim" to bring up "SkyrimLauncher.exe". Yet it doesn't. Whereas, the search on ClassicStart says "search programs and files", to which I understand it not listing SkyrimLauncher because it's not an installed program (as it is referencing programs in "Program Files (x86)").

From my testing, it looks like "Files" is exclusive to the files in your library (i.e. Documents, Music, etc) and no where else. I find that and the "Everything" listing to be misleading. Counter-intuitive even. 

 

Actually, it's 288 assuming you're putting them in different collumns, but since you need 400+ icons readily available then you can just put them in a single group and you'll have your 400+ with no problem. But once again, if you're so afraid of touching the scroll and are so fond of the keyboard then, as I previously said, you just need to hit the page down or END key instead and BAM! you have 400+ new icon slots.

You're the one who said you put icons in your desktop, not me, so stop contradicting yourself. And why the hell are complaining about the metro not allowing you to see the desktop? It leaves your desktop completely clean and if you care that much about seeing your background while using metro then just use opacy. I also suggest you to ditch your start menu right away as it does not have the background you like so much.

And the page down or end key is different from just typing the letter of the folder how? Then you just type the letter of the program and press enter. Or for Metro, click it. But that click requires a transition from keyboard to mouse with your hand which takes time.

Yes, I put icons on my desktop that I use rarely (none fall into that category currently), but that doesn't mean they are always there. Since I don't touch them often, I tend to delete them if I don't need them anymore. Anti-clutter.

Why would you go to your Desktop.... If you are using metro? If the purpose of a background is to be seen for me, how does metro making my desktop clean benefit me if I'm using metro and never touch it? That's like me saying "I wish my car wouldn't use so much gas." to which you reply "Then just buy a new car." to which my response would be "But, I like this car. I just don't want it to use so much gas." and your counter response would be "Well, if you buy a new car and use it, then this car will use no gas." ... That doesn't help me if my point is to use the car I want to use.

Same thing essentially.

 

1.create a shortcut, give it a 2 letter name

2.do it for every program

3.search -> type 2 letters -> enter

And that's laborious. Mind you, obviously organizing programs in general is laborious, no matter the interface, but at the same time, I think making a shortcut and renaming it for every single program you have is many times more so than creating folders and sorting the programs.

and your entire system is now useless. no mouse required, no muscle memory required, takes less time to arrange than ordering your several folders. If what you reallu want a pure keyboard experience then your system is simply subpar. Sure, metro isn't the best for an efficient non-mouse experience, but that's so very easily fixed.

I wouldn't say it's useless, and my goal is not to remove the mouse entirely, but use it for what it is efficient for. Like scrolling a web page (unless you want to use Tab/Ctrl+Tab, but that's ... just terrible). Or moving multiple different documents. Things like that. Also, I'm the one who uses muscle memory and mentioned it. That setup would use muscle memory. Rather than disuse it.

My desire is for a good combination of using both. And I feel Metro is far too heavy on Mouse use. This is obviously due to it being oriented for tablets and touch screens. It took what Desktop (as I call it) did well with keyboard and made it less efficient with mouse (less transitions are better) imo. 

 

It has, I just explained a simpler and yet more effective solution. The search is very much functional in metro, it's your start button that broke it.

I disagree entirely. My search function in Metro, separate from the Desktop, still lists everything. Like, the category literally is "Everything". Unless ClassicStart did that, and I doubt it did, it was Metro. And that solution was more laborious than sorting the programs I would use into folders on my start menu.

There's no Metro VS Desktop, there's a metro interface vs old interface.

And no, mouse is more efficient than keyboard. The "noob" is actually you, anyone with a half decent aim will pinpoint the icon with a mouse as fast or even faster than you with much less effort. And anyone with half a brain would leave their hundreds of steam games in the steam library, which takes 1 second to open and another 3 seconds to pinpoint the game as opposed to cluttering your taskbar/starmenu/desktop with hundreds of icons that you will open maybe once per year if at all. And as I stated, the metro has a very very very simple alternative for pure-keyboard users, you're the one who chose to break it.

The old interface was what is called "Desktop" in metro. The Taskbar + Start Menu + Desktop space. It's what they labeled it. Not me.

See, I think I'm done here. If you feel so strongly that "Metro master race", then fine. But if you are just going to insult me, then I'm not going to talk to you after this post. Simple as that. And btw, when I mentioned the noob thing, it was in no way intended to call you a noob. I was saying that, if a noob were to pick up Metro and a noob were to pickup Desktop, the noob with Metro would have an easier time. Whereas, if you compared the efficiency of an experienced Desktop user to an experienced Metro user, they would be near the same with Desktop being somewhat ahead for a few minor reasons.

One of those reasons is something I just realized. My Windows key brings up the Start Menu. Which has a Search box (with the equivalent of the "Everything" setting), all my programs, all my computer management tools (as I mentioned before), the shutdown/logout options, and links to my library folders. 

How many shortcuts do you have to memorize on Metro for all that to be 1 button click away? Windows + Q/S (Search "Everything"), Windows + E (System Properties), Windows + L (Lock Computer), Windows key (Start Screen), etc etc. You could put them all on Metro listed by group, but then you'd have to scroll or press a key, then actively click it. Again, a transition that is unneeded using Start menu.

Another reason is the use priority (Metro uses Mouse more than Desktop with little alternatives) which requires more transitions between Keyboard and Mouse + Keyboard for those who type with 2 hands.

Not to mention that Metro itself takes up a ton of real estate, whereas a list of my program folders along with all that other stuff takes up 10% of my screen, roughly. Better multi-tasking there.

 

So, once again, metro start menu >old start menu.

Yes, and Fire is Wet.

 

You can even do Win+Q on the desktop, and just a search bar show up, so that you don't need to go on the Start Screen for a simple search.

See, or I could do Windows. And do the same search. 

[Canoas]

-long text-

I'll reply quickly.

 

 Alright, if you're so anti-mouse then don't sue it.

 

Then when steam asks you if you want to create a shortcut/star menu icon/whatever it is just say yes. It'll put it on the app list (the one you access by clicking ont he arrow) and will show up as the first suggestion once you type "sk", unless you have other apps that start with sk but it'll still be one of the first. If you don't do this windows will not treat skyrim.exe as an app but as a file (if I'm not mistaken) at which point it would need to scan your entire computer if it's not indexed.

 

No, the actual button they introduced. Either way, button or not, if you didn't disable the charms then right click on the top right or bottom left corner and it'll show up 20 common used settings/functions.

 

I am not against the scroll wheel in any way, you are. For me the scroll wheel a godsend, so easy to use and right at your fingertips.

 

Creating a shortcut takes 2 seconds each time you install a new program, it's not laborous at all. Either way you can still just type the first few letters of the app and if there's nothing else with that name the search will automatically fill in the rest for you so you just have to hit enter. If I search "p" it'll select   photoshop as it's the most common used app that starts by p, but I can hi t the down arrow and it'll being me adobe flash professional. If I search "i" it'll bring up illustrator, "d" will bring me  desktop but "di" will be diablo III.  "do" will not be dota 2 as when steam asked if I wanted it to be installed as an app I said no, so I have to open steam for it. The only reson I mentioned the shortcuts is because you're hellbent on efficiency with only the keyboard and this would ensure that you could open any single app with just 2 letters and an enter, but I guess it's useless since windows already does it for you so effectively.

 

As I said, I have no desire to insult you, but you are defending an objectively weaker interface out of ignorance about the new one. It just is. 4 months ago I would have been in your shoes defending the old strat menu, but once you give it an honest try you'll see how much worse it just is. Even if you don't like using the mouse then use the search and it will be so much more efficient than your custom start menu organization and will require no muscle memory whatsoever nor any troublesome time consuming organization as you just need to know the name.

 

Oh no, you have to memorize an hotkey (W+s) as opposed to your hundreds of combinations? What kind of benevolant god would create this kind of hell? Please, someone save us!

 

As I've said oh so many times the search function is more efficient and faster than your system and doesn't require you to touch the mouse at all. The search takes like 15% of your screen, as if that'd make a difference. The metro takes the whole screen so you can pick the app faster, this way it'll take you a second of full-screen to choose between several hundred apps as opposed to 10 seconds of only 10% screen usage, the efficiency is still higher.

You have nothing whatsoever to back you up. The only system you suggest to be better than the metro still gets outperformed by a simple search function. This is how ridiculous your entire argument is. For both an intensive mouse user (me) or a solo-keyboard user (you) the metro still outperforms the old start menu in every way.

 

I said I wouldn't reply but did since you put time in your reply. However, I will not reply anymore. This matter isn't even debatable, there's clearly one superior interface as no matter what you want to do I can do it faster and easier with or without mouse. And this works across ALL computers. If I go to my mom's computer I will still be able to open any program in a second while you are dependent on a very cumbersome personal organizational system.

[Barnacules]

Windows 8 was redesigned to run on low hardware specs (ARM devices) so the code base is much more lean and mean. When you compare Windows 7 to Windows 8 the things Windows 8 has an advantage on are footprint on disk, lower overall memory consumption, GPU accelerated desktop, startup speed, better drivers (IMO) and the overall OS seems much more snappy and responsive when under heavy loads.

 

That being said Windows 7 is a long time proven OS that is very solid and has most of it's kinks worked out and Windows 8/8.1 is still pretty new so you might run into some minor application compatibility issues you will have to work around (I haven't found any that can't be worked around so far). Hope this advise is somewhat useful.

 

One more thing, if you are turned off by 'metro' otherwise known now as 'modern shell' simply install Start8 from Stardock software and it will be out of sight out of mind. And if you do want to run modern applications but want them on the desktop then look at a program called Modern Mix also by Stardock. These programs work very well and I use them daily.

 

Thanks!

Jerry (aka. Barnacules)