Anyone familiar with ProtoCase Designer?

[TrollPlattformen]

So I've been meaning to try and design a rack case in the ProtoCase Designer software, and I am fairly pleased with what I am managing to do (experimented with cut-outs to practice and get a feel for it).

However, I find placement of motherboard standoffs and cutouts for PCI and I/O challenging, because these are independent. I have tried transferring a template of a regular case with premade cutouts and standoffs into my model, but nothing shows signs of that working. So I tried reading the documentation about making an enclosure for motherboard-based systems. While I can understand most of it, I find the illustrations lacking, to say the least.

So I was wondering if anyone else has experience with making such work in said software. Any sort of guidelines with or without illustrations (include a grid if you can) is appreciated.

[Protocase]

Hi @TrollPlattformen, thanks for checking out Protocase Designer. I'm glad you're happy with how the software works for you, although definitely sorry to hear the PDF about designing for motherboard-based systems doesn't have all of the information you're looking for. (Will this wiki article help further?)

 

I wanted to chime in to say hi, and basically see what feedback you get from the community. We are totally up for tweaking the PDF to include more information and better diagrams. 

[TrollPlattformen]

37 minutes ago, Protocase said:

[SNIP]

Hello, and thank you for your response.

The article you linked does show some info about what I'm looking for. But while it shows what I assume is the right dimensions for the IO shield to be mounted, my main issue is finding out where to make the cutout for the "IO + PCI slots" combo, and aligning with the standoffs. I plan to have an ATX size motherboard in the back corner, with support for mounting graphics cards vertically (when the motherboard is horizontal).

I will provide a screencap of the rough placement of cutout for PSU, motherboard IO and PCI slots, to illustrate what I mean. The exact position in millimeters is not final, just for the sake of demonstration.

[Protocase]

16 minutes ago, TrollPlattformen said:

Hello, and thank you for your response.

The article you linked does show some info about what I'm looking for. But while it shows what I assume is the right dimensions for the IO shield to be mounted, my main issue is finding out where to make the cutout for the "IO + PCI slots" combo, and aligning with the standoffs. I plan to have an ATX size motherboard in the back corner, with support for mounting graphics cards vertically (when the motherboard is horizontal).

I will provide a screencap of the rough placement of cutout for PSU, motherboard IO and PCI slots, to illustrate what I mean. The exact position in millimeters is not final, just for the sake of demonstration.

Okay, thanks for the extra info and screencap. I've sent it to our engineering and design services team to see if they can offer any additional tips! Might not get back to you right away, but I'll be sure to follow up on Monday. 

[TrollPlattformen]

1 minute ago, Protocase said:

Okay, thanks for the extra info and screencap. I've sent it to our engineering and design services team to see if they can offer any additional tips! Might not get back to you right away, but I'll be sure to follow up on Monday. 

Thank you for helping out. From what I gathered in an advert for the software and association, it seemed like one could make a draft model, hand in and get evaluation/optimization to correct mistakes. If that's the case, I would get started once I get to know more about the motherboard cutouts and standoffs.

[Protocase]

On 4/21/2017 at 5:04 PM, TrollPlattformen said:

Thank you for helping out. From what I gathered in an advert for the software and association, it seemed like one could make a draft model, hand in and get evaluation/optimization to correct mistakes. If that's the case, I would get started once I get to know more about the motherboard cutouts and standoffs.

Yes, you are correct - when you're submitting your design in Protocase Designer, you can make a note to inform our engineering and design services team that there may be some improvements that need to be made, or that you want the design to be examined carefully. The software does automatic checks for design errors, and then if any are flagged, our engineering and design services team will go over the design in full. Sometimes the improvements that are needed will warrant some design time from our team, which may add on a small fee, while sometimes it's just a small tweak before the design can be manufactured. 

[Protocase]

On 4/21/2017 at 4:40 PM, TrollPlattformen said:

Hello, and thank you for your response.

The article you linked does show some info about what I'm looking for. But while it shows what I assume is the right dimensions for the IO shield to be mounted, my main issue is finding out where to make the cutout for the "IO + PCI slots" combo, and aligning with the standoffs. I plan to have an ATX size motherboard in the back corner, with support for mounting graphics cards vertically (when the motherboard is horizontal).

I will provide a screencap of the rough placement of cutout for PSU, motherboard IO and PCI slots, to illustrate what I mean. The exact position in millimeters is not final, just for the sake of demonstration.

 

Okay, heard back from our engineering and design services team:

 

-The rackmount template that you used in Protocase Designer doesn't have a specific computer case option. The computer case cutout that you selected from the library and placed it on the rear of the 19" rackmount case doesn't work well for this arrangement, because A) the rear panel is bent inward when it should be bent outward and B) it also needs a jogged section where the PCI cards would screw into.

 

-The 0,0 reference origin in Protocase Designer is the same on each face of the case, so this should help with knowing where you are placing cutouts (though this would require some calculations).

 

-Eventually, Protocase Designer should have a template for a rackmount computer case, but our software team doesn't have an ETA on when this will be completed in their development queue.

 

For now, they recommend you complete your design as best you can, and when you submit the order, make a note of what you're trying to achieve. The engineering and design services team will address it once the design gets submitted. (One thing to note, though - these changes could affect the price you are quoted in Protocase Designer, depending on how much additional design time is needed.)

 

Hope this helps! 

[TrollPlattformen]

2 hours ago, Protocase said:

Yes, you are correct - when you're submitting your design in Protocase Designer, you can make a note to inform our engineering and design services team that there may be some improvements that need to be made, or that you want the design to be examined carefully. The software does automatic checks for design errors, and then if any are flagged, our engineering and design services team will go over the design in full. Sometimes the improvements that are needed will warrant some design time from our team, which may add on a small fee, while sometimes it's just a small tweak before the design can be manufactured. 

It is nice to hear that dialogue with the engineering team is possible, as it makes for better decisions than a fresh consumer could make himself. However I am unsure about the flagging system being accurate, seeing as an unedited template for a "regular" ATX enclosure, with PCI and IO cutouts, and standoffs for the motherboard still gets flagged. When I made a crude sketch with cutouts and standoffs being way unaligned, no flags. That is the main reason I would prefer to be in dialogue.

1 hour ago, Protocase said:

-The rackmount template that you used in Protocase Designer doesn't have a specific computer case option. The computer case cutout that you selected from the library and placed it on the rear of the 19" rackmount case doesn't work well for this arrangement, because A) the rear panel is bent inward when it should be bent outward and B) it also needs a jogged section where the PCI cards would screw into.

If by bent inward you mean at the top below where the cover would be, I don't find it to be in the way. But a spot to add screws for the PCI expansion cards, yes that is an issue. I made an attempt at making a flanged bracket to serve that purpose, but obviously it is not the most ideal solution.

1 hour ago, Protocase said:

-The 0,0 reference origin in Protocase Designer is the same on each face of the case, so this should help with knowing where you are placing cutouts (though this would require some calculations).

That might be of help. Although I think a bit more info in the documentation on placing the cutouts in the correct height, such as an example would be nice.

On that note, I have taken another screencap, because I have noticed something more. I have added arrows to point at a dot and a line that show up in the face editor. I assume the line represents the motherboard. If that's the case, I could measure the distance between the line and the edge of the face, and use that to calculate what length of standoffs to use (factoring in base thickness). However the dot makes me wonder: is it a guide to get the right distance to something, or does it serve another purpose?

1 hour ago, Protocase said:

-Eventually, Protocase Designer should have a template for a rackmount computer case, but our software team doesn't have an ETA on when this will be completed in their development queue.

That would be splendid, because I know not everyone is as patient and willing to make modifications as I am with this project.

 

Long reply, I know, but there was quite a bit to address. But that is the benefit of speaking with an affiliate.

[Protocase]

2 hours ago, TrollPlattformen said:

On that note, I have taken another screencap, because I have noticed something more. I have added arrows to point at a dot and a line that show up in the face editor. I assume the line represents the motherboard. If that's the case, I could measure the distance between the line and the edge of the face, and use that to calculate what length of standoffs to use (factoring in base thickness). However the dot makes me wonder: is it a guide to get the right distance to something, or does it serve another purpose?

 

Okay, appreciate your feedback above - I'll provide them to the team and see if we can make some tweaks to address the items you brought up.

 

Re: your final screencap, with the line that shows up the face editor, I'm going to check with the engineering folks and get back to you.

[Protocase]

Okay @TrollPlattformen - got some answers for you (forgive me in advance for the long post!):

 

-Correct that the green line in your screencap is the board itself. So your assumption is correct - you can use this to determine the standoff length. If you're using self-clinching standoffs, the length includes the case thickness. (If you're using studs and threaded posts, then the length would be referenced from the inside of the material thickness).

 

-The green dot - as you guessed - is a guide to getting the right offsets. 

 

-So for the PCI/IO cutouts, there is a vertical offset of .375” from the bottom of the case. This means the dot should be set at Y=0 with respect to the reference origin. See attached photos verticalOffset, verticalOffsetFromDocument and verticalOffsetReference for some additional clarity.

 

-The ATX pem layout also has a dot. The center of the dot is .065” from the edge of the board. This means the dot should be placed at Y=”MetalThickness”  with respect to the reference origin. See attached photos standOffOffset and StandOffOffsetReference.

 

So, what's left for you to set are the X-values for both of these dots. As long as you set them to the same distance, the PCI/IO cutouts and PEM layout should line up properly for your board.

 

As always, once you submit your design, you can definitely include a note that you'd like your design checked (beyond the automated checks that happen anyway). Our engineering team would reach out to you if there were any issues that needed to be addressed before your case was manufactured. 

 

Hope this helps?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Protocase]

Apologies, I'm realizing now that my screenshots that I've attached above aren't labelled:

 

#1 - Vertical Offset

#2 - Vertical Offset from document

#3 - Standoff Offset

#4 - Standoff Offset Reference

#5 - Vertical Offset Reference

 

 

 

[TrollPlattformen]

Thank you for the response, @Protocase.

I have now taken some time to get acquainted with aligning the PEM layout and PCI cutout, making sure the X coordinate for the green dots are the same, the Y for the PEM is to the inside, and the PCI dot's Y coordinate accounts for standoff going through the base.

 

Everything seems to look fine, to me anyways. I believe I have gotten the help I seeked in this forum thread. The only thing I wonder about now is if the PEMs in the ATX group automatically come with a set height relative to the inside of the case. Since I do not see any way to specify the PEM height, I would assume I could just screw the motherboard into the PEMs?

[Protocase]

19 hours ago, TrollPlattformen said:

The only thing I wonder about now is if the PEMs in the ATX group automatically come with a set height relative to the inside of the case. Since I do not see any way to specify the PEM height, I would assume I could just screw the motherboard into the PEMs?

The PEMs (studs) in the ATX group are a constant .25" (inches) tall. What we include with the PEMs are threaded posts (and screws for mounting the board to these posts). These threaded posts screw onto the studs. The threaded posts are .375" from the inside bottom of the case to the top of the posts. 

 

One thing to note - in my previous reply, I misspoke - when it comes to PCI/IO cutouts, the vertical offset of .375" is from the inside bottom of the case, not the outside bottom of the case as I said before. My apologies for the confusion!

[TrollPlattformen]

4 hours ago, Protocase said:

The PEMs (studs) in the ATX group are a constant .25" (inches) tall. What we include with the PEMs are threaded posts (and screws for mounting the board to these posts). These threaded posts screw onto the studs. The threaded posts are .375" from the inside bottom of the case to the top of the posts. 

 

One thing to note - in my previous reply, I misspoke - when it comes to PCI/IO cutouts, the vertical offset of .375" is from the inside bottom of the case, not the outside bottom of the case as I said before. My apologies for the confusion!

Okay, so from what I gathered, the center of the dot should align with the inside surface of the base, like in the screencap below. And that will place the IO and PCI slots in the correct height to fit with the height of PEM studs and screw-in standoffs stacked.

This would also mean the X coordinate for the dots of PCI and PEM is the same, and both dots are aligned to the inside surface of the enclosure.

Is all that correct?

[Protocase]

19 hours ago, TrollPlattformen said:

Okay, so from what I gathered, the center of the dot should align with the inside surface of the base, like in the screencap below. And that will place the IO and PCI slots in the correct height to fit with the height of PEM studs and screw-in standoffs stacked.

This would also mean the X coordinate for the dots of PCI and PEM is the same, and both dots are aligned to the inside surface of the enclosure.

Is all that correct?

 

You've almost got it - just one issue with the dot, it's not set properly. You've aligned your dot with the first black line in the picture (which means you've set the dot to a height equal to the bend radius). This is actually a modeling mistake in an older version of Protocase Designer - we've since corrected that in the newest release of PD, which is coming out within the next few weeks.

 

Our engineering team recommends you use the measure tool to click on both the red origin and the center of the dot, set the 'Y difference' (the field on the right side of your screen) equal to whatever metal thickness you're using, then press enter. The x values can be left alone.

 

Then you should be set!

[TrollPlattformen]

11 minutes ago, Protocase said:

You've almost got it - just one issue with the dot, it's not set properly. You've aligned your dot with the first black line in the picture (which means you've set the dot to a height equal to the bend radius).

I believe that is the second line I have it on, not the first, though I do see what you mean. The screencap does not show it, but if one goes to either end of the base, there are three lines meeting at a point below the "back wall". One is perfecly horizontal, the two others go on an angle, which I thought was the perspective of the base. Here is another screencap, that shows a measurement of the distance between the bottom line (outside of the chassis) and the dot I used to align the PCI cutouts. I have compared it to the enclosure properties, and this distance is the same as the thickness I have set.

 

Below this, I will add some screencaps of the current coordinate alignments of the PEM and PCI placement. All I need to know at that point is whether or not they are correct so it would work to screw standoffs into the PEMs, and then screw the motherboard to the standoffs. Explanations for the coordinates are in the notes in the bottom right corner of each screencap.

 

 

[Protocase]

20 hours ago, TrollPlattformen said:

I believe that is the second line I have it on, not the first, though I do see what you mean. The screencap does not show it, but if one goes to either end of the base, there are three lines meeting at a point below the "back wall". One is perfecly horizontal, the two others go on an angle, which I thought was the perspective of the base. Here is another screencap, that shows a measurement of the distance between the bottom line (outside of the chassis) and the dot I used to align the PCI cutouts. I have compared it to the enclosure properties, and this distance is the same as the thickness I have set.

 

Below this, I will add some screencaps of the current coordinate alignments of the PEM and PCI placement. All I need to know at that point is whether or not they are correct so it would work to screw standoffs into the PEMs, and then screw the motherboard to the standoffs. Explanations for the coordinates are in the notes in the bottom right corner of each screencap.

 

Yes, from the looks of everything you've captured in your screenshots, it all looks correct.

[TrollPlattformen]

Well, then it seems I have got what I needed, for now at least. It's something to look forward to if the software does in the future get a template that accommodates the ledge for PCI cards to be screwed to. For now, I will have to make do with making my own bracket, but that should not be a big problem.

[Protocase]

1 hour ago, TrollPlattformen said:

Well, then it seems I have got what I needed, for now at least. It's something to look forward to if the software does in the future get a template that accommodates the ledge for PCI cards to be screwed to. For now, I will have to make do with making my own bracket, but that should not be a big problem.

Sounds great! Thanks for your patience while I went back and forth with our engineering team - just wanted to check with the experts before I confirmed any info for you. 

[TrollPlattformen]

Just now, Protocase said:

Sounds great! Thanks for your patience while I went back and forth with our engineering team - just wanted to check with the experts before I confirmed any info for you. 

It's good to know you people do your job properly, both in terms of production and customer relations. Linus seemed to be happy with what you've done, so I was sure I would be equally happy with your help.

And patience was not a problem, I still have quite some time before I'll send in an order. I just wanted to acquaint myself with the designing software early so I could work long and well on the design.