Audio recording set up

[Lincoln_Rhyme]

ok i am going to post this anywah instead of sending a message to alwin who said he is traveling.  I have a Canon T5/1200D which i bought last year for pure photography.  it can record video but does not have a way to plug in a mic. its summer break for me and I want to learn how to edit some videos and at the same time my parents want me to use the camea to film my sister playing the piano and violin.  there willing to spend money on a good setup. so what kind of mics should i get and how can i record the audio?

[ALwin]

I'm at my hotel now.

 

What kind of music does your sister play on the piano and violin?  That can help determine the type of mic you should get.  And with the T5, you need to use an external audio recorder.

[.spider.]

For music the room you are recording in is far more important than the microphones you are using.  

I would record in a bigger room which is close to IEC N 12-A and the most important point the room should not be quadratic. 

[Lincoln_Rhyme]

19 hours ago, ALwin said:

I'm at my hotel now.

 

What kind of music does your sister play on the piano and violin?  That can help determine the type of mic you should get.  And with the T5, you need to use an external audio recorder.

you are in vienna now?  sorry I didnt reply yesterday.  my dad said, if you were the one doing the recording, can you say what you would use tho he said he doesnt have unlimited budget.  my sister plays classical music, she study at a music academy in Hungary and is back for the summer visiting home.  she plays music like mozert, viveldi, and others.

[Lincoln_Rhyme]

and we want to record at home so that we can show our relatives.

[.spider.]

3 hours ago, Lincoln_Rhyme said:

*snip*

You can answer the most important part by using a simple yardstick and the other part just requires a cheap linear condenser microphone and a cheap soundcard.

Depending on the interior which is already there it is possible that a few additional Sabin will give you good results.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by Ryan_Vickers

[ALwin]

Quote

I would record in a bigger room which is close to IEC N 12-A and the most important point the room should not be quadratic. 
cheap linear condenser microphone and a cheap soundcard

few additional Sabin will give you good results

We just finished reviewing the footage shot today and was about to go have dinner, but now after seeing this hilarious stuff I think we're going to order room service and enjoy the lulz.  Definitely proof of someone who doesn't have any actual experience working with audio, nor actually considers what the person seeking advice actually needs.  Book smart = yes... actual experience = absolute ZERO.

 

I actually have experience filming musicians, in fact that's one of the things we are doing in Vienna right now for the feature being filmed.  One of our team is a sound engineer with years more experience than I have.

 

1 hour ago, Lincoln_Rhyme said:

and we want to record at home so that we can show our relatives.

The only thing that made sense for your needs, from what the joker said, is the part about recording in a spacious room.  But for home recordings even a decent sized bedroom is enough.  But I doubt anyone in your home keeps a piano in the bedroom.

 

First, the gear.  You or your dad probably want to invest in something that can be used for other purposes later on.  Especially since you can't attach a mic to the Canon 1200D.  So I recommend something like a Zoom H5 or H6 recorder.  The stereo mic that comes with either, or in the case of the H6 the mid-side capsule that's also included are decent mics.  Later on you can use these recorders on any video projects and they have XLR/Line ports to attach various sound devices including mics and can be used as an audio interface for a computer.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1026852-REG/zoom_h5_handy_recorder.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/967366-REG/zoom_h6_handy_audio_recorder.html

 

I also recommend getting a nice pair of headphones, though if you want to use any that you already own it will be fine.  These will be used for monitoring audio during recording.

 

I'd also buy a cheap mic stand.  They are cheap, even decent ones and should cost no more than $25.

 

Now here are mic techniques you should consider for the violin and piano (I assume it's either a grand piano or an upright piano).  Ideally for both instruments some decent microphones attached via cable to the recorders will be better, but they can become an unnecessary investment that will just stay in their boxes after one time use or so.

 

For the sake of explanation I'll assume you will be recording in the living room.

 

Violin

Have your sister sit in the middle of the room

Place the mic stand, with the H5/H6 recorder attached, behind your sister with the recorder hanging from above her left shoulder over the violin around a distance of 20-30cm.  If you use the XY stereo, have one capsule pointing towards the bridge area and the other capsule towards the neck. With the Mid-Side capsule, you want the figure 8 pattern capsule pointing one side of the figure 8 towards the bridge and one side towards the neck.  The other cardioid or omni capsule doesn't matter because the MS capsule of the H6 is an all in one contained unit.

 

Piano

With a grand piano place the mic stand on the curvy side of the piano with the arm extended over the strings, with one capsule of the XY stereo aimed towards the high note wires and the other capsule towards the low note wires, similarly with the MS capsule.  This means that the recorder will be at an angle instead of being parallel with the layout of the keys.  With an upright piano, it's a bit tricky if the piano is placed against the wall.  You want the recorder to be hanging over the top cover (with it open if possible) and of course the XY stereo or MS stereo capsule placement parallel to the wall, which means it will be parallel to the layout of the keys.

 

See this video at the first few seconds where the mic stand is placed for a grand piano.  However for the H5/H6 mics you want the mic stand arm extend underneath the cover and over the wires.  This video is using a set of Active Ribbon mics that I am in love with, I own a pair of them.  However you don't need such expensive mics for home recording.  And unless your sister is also singing like Katie, you just concentrate on recording the sound from the instruments.

 

 

Now to set up and monitor audio when recording.  I really recommend you use a pair of headphones or earphones to monitor what is being recorded.  On the recorders, for the mic capsules adjust the gain dial so that when the mics are picking up sound the level meters on the LCD screen peak at maximum -12db or so.  See image below of the H5 screen to see the -12 indicator.  Don't do a sound check with your talking voice, have your sister play through the song she intends to record, monitor the audio and make sure it doesn't clip.  Some songs and compositions can vary in loudness, from low quiet parts to loud intense parts of the composition.  These loud parts have a high risk being clipped which will definitely distort the audio.  So you could try setting the recorder to do a dual channel recording where one channel will record at one audio level and another channel will record the same audio at a lower level.  You can use these dual channel recorded files to mix and get a better sound overall in post.  Actually a dual channel recording will be best, because of the following reasons:

• you're not using external mics cabled to the recorder, the recorder is going to be in the frame of the video because it is hanging over the instruments
• you don't want to be standing near the recorder, while filming, to adjust things on the recorder.  So your sister may have to play the instruments quite a number of times, the first time she plays through you will not be filming, you will be monitoring the LCD screen of the recorder while listening through the headphones to get an idea of the changes in sound level throughout the entire music composition. With this you will get an idea of what settings you need to fix on the recorder so that when the actual filming begins you can set up the recorder and leave it alone.

In a professional world there are various types and sizes of mics available to record instruments, some are small and can be placed in a way that is hidden from the camera.  But since you just need something for home recording, investing in those will be too much.

 

Ok so why am I saying you need a headphone to monitor audio?  Because the recorder, and the meter on the recorder, does not indicate what is being recorded.  It only shows that some sound is being captured and that it is either not loud enough, just loud enough or too loud.  So you need to use headphones to actually monitor the audio because you can identify what sound is actually being captured.

 

I hope I covered everything, but if you have any more questions or confused with anything I said let me know and when I have time I will answer.  You can also ask members like @ShadowCaptain who might be able to help clarify a few things I've said.

 

 

TIP: try to clear the room of any furniture if possible, and if you want use thick curtains or blankets/duvets to act as a some sort of DIY sound absorption by hanging them against the walls.

[ALwin]

Here's another video showing how they set up mics to record a grand piano.

 

You can also read about techniques for recording pianos here

http://en.wikiaudio.org/Recording_techniques:Piano

And their index for recording techniques

http://en.wikiaudio.org/Category:Recording_techniques

[Lincoln_Rhyme]

wow man thanks for the reply, thats a lot of info to digest.  i'll show my dad and we will reply later.  by the way, which one is better the zoom h5 or h6?  what is the difference?

[ALwin]

4 minutes ago, Lincoln_Rhyme said:

which one is better the zoom h5 or h6?  what is the difference?

Neither is better than the other per say.  The H5 I think records up to four channels and the H6 up to six channels.  So it really depends on the number of simultaneous channels you need to record.

 

I own something that sits above them, the Zoom F8 which can record up to eight channels and is my field recorder. I bought it because I really needed the ability to connect up to eight different microphones.  It's sitting on the table next to my MacBook here and you can't see it in the photo at the bottom but it's inside the black  audio bag with the green carabiners attached.

 

[.spider.]

31 minutes ago, ALwin said:

 

Have your sister sit in the middle of the room

Place the mic stand, with the H5/H6 recorder attached, behind your sister with the recorder hanging from above her left shoulder over the violin around a distance of 20-30cm.  

I stopped reading at this point.

You don't have a single clue what you are talking about don't you?

That's the funniest thing I read in a while, thanks for making me laugh so good so many times.

 

You probably never even heard about modes...

 

It's OK do your show... I'll laugh quietly 

 

Edit:

I actually don't think there is a bigger No No than listening or recording in the middle of a room.

 

Edit2: And you don't know how to quote properly.

[Lincoln_Rhyme]

28 minutes ago, ALwin said:

Definitely proof of someone who doesn't have any actual experience working with audio, nor actually considers what the person seeking advice actually needs.  Book smart = yes... actual experience = absolute ZERO.

My dad and I agree that you may be right about this.  we don't need a professional setup, and your advice with the H5 and H6 recorders looks to be the solution we need for home recording.

[vanished]

This has been a bit of a mess, and is under review for the moment.

That should do for now.  But seeing as how this is solved I see no reason to unlock it.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Ryan_Vickers