Netduma R1 wireless?

[Colt_0pz]

Does the Netduma R1 router support wireless?

[ZetZet]

WHAT IS THAT 

 

 

http://charlieintel.com/2014/12/14/netduma-r1-gaming-router-choose-players-connect-advanced-warfare/

 

 

The router itself is a small white box including five Gigabit Ethernet ports, 2.4 GHz 802.11 b/g/n Wifi and other technical features.

 

 

 

don't buy that piece of shit

[Colt_0pz]

WHAT IS THAT 

Awnser the question. I didn't ask you to hate on it.  :angry:

[ZetZet]

Awnser the question. I didn't ask you to hate on it. >

i did

[Colt_0pz]

i did

ok. just don't post your hate on here.

[manikyath]

the webpage seems to say it does.

however, as a networking guy, i'm staying away from that thing as far as i can...

 

it claims to do things that i honestly can only see go horribly, horribly wrong...

[Donut417]

Well it looks like it does support wireless. However I would go with the others, I would say buy a better router than that. Firstly it only supports 2.4Ghz wireless N. You would be better off with a Dual band AC option. 

 

Further more that router run $199 USD. Hell with that price tag it should be Dual band AC. I honestly dont think its worth the money. 

[brwainer]

The hardware is literally a Mikrotik RB951G-2HnD http://routerboard.com/RB951G-2HnD which I can promise is a very solid piece of hardware for 802.11N 2.4GHz.... but is also several years old and only costs $80 normally. What about Netduma's special software they've put on the router? No clue, never used it. But I don't trust all the promises they make on their website. If you will primarily use wired connections, it would be pretty good. If you need wireless, then $200 without 5GHz or AC isn't worth it at all. If they release a new version based on the (announced but still unreleased) Mikrotik hAP AC, which will feature 3x3 AC (but not MU-MIMO) then I might be interested, but I still can't recommend anything from Netduma considering the high cost for limited features.

[MeshFile]

A 'gaming' router? No. Stay away from it.

[IainFraser]

I'm CTO at Netduma. We do a daily google search for "Netduma" mentions in the last 24 hours that's how we stumbled across this thread.

 

Can I just state the following disclaimer:

• I'm not defensive I genuinely would like your feedback
  
• I'm not trying to promote the product again just want your feedback
  

 

There appears to be a few issues you have with our product and/or website:

 

1. Lack of 5ghz / ac Wifi

2. Features not working

3. Being called a 'gaming router'

 

I'll address each of them from our point of view. If you don't mind give us your opinion as we're really open to feedback. 

 

Lack of 5ghz Wifi

 

So on point 1, we didn't go for a 5GHz AC wifi router because:

 

A ) For most people on the planet it won't make a difference; and

B ) It would increase the unit price

 

The gains AC wifi gives are higher bandwidth and reduced interference. In nearly all instances the bottleneck for bandwidth will not be the Wifi. It will usually be your WAN link or the actual TCP window. 

 

On interference AC WiFi may actual perform worse depending on circumstances (search cicsco papers on interference).  With those points in mind and the fact nearly all serious gamers will play wired we didn't think the cost increase for AC wifi was worth it. If truth be told I believe the continued increase in Wifi bandwidth by other routers is a marketing ploy to get new revenue from users without any actual benefit (in most cases).

 

On point 2, we had many sceptical people when we launched. That is understandable especially in the space we're in. There have been plenty of gaming products that make bold statements that didn't deliver anything. But we've been trading for over a year now and if you check independent user reviews on youtube it clearly works. We're a small startup and developing the product took about 3 years of full dedication on my part, not including my PhD research.

 

On point 3, I understand the point that lots of products slap the name 'Gaming' on them with no benefit to the user. But our Geo-Filter and unique QoS algorithms really does make a difference that's why I think we're doing so well. We had no marketing budget and now we're in 68 countries and have won multiple awards. I don't say this to brag but to underline the point that word of mouth is what helped us. We plan to develop features beyond the gaming market so "Gaming router" will be dropped soon.

 

Anyway I hope you understand my points even if you disagree with them. We're a very feedback driven company so I'd love to hear your thoughts if you have any constructive.

 

Thank-you,

Iain

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention price point, anyone here who runs a company knows you have to put up a margin there are so many unseen costs e.g. VAT, Lawyers, Accountants, Employees, Office space, etc. We think it's a fair price and many of customers have said that on our forum.

[brwainer]

 

-snip-

 

 

Thank you for coming here and adding your point of view. While I understand your point that for most users WAN is their bottleneck, I think you must agree that the use of NAS systems and in-home game streaming is on the rise, especially in an enthusiast community such as LinusTechTips. The desire for high internal transfer speeds and low latency is what drives us to ask for the latest wireless technology. I can agree to some extent that the majority of consumer wireless brands put as much or more interest in the marketability and profitability of having the biggest numbers on the outside of their shiny box. I do not agree, based on experience with both personal and enterprise wireless networks, that 5GHz and AC are meaningless. Especially in crowded apartment situations, having the 5GHz spectrum available to escape interference is a great boon. I have literally solved client signal issues by connecting them to a 5GHz AP that was slightly farther away versus their closest 2.4GHz AP - and it was purely interference, not a failing or badly designed AP that was the cause.

 

I admire your use of hardware that I know is some of the best in the space, and I was sincere in my prior post that if you release a new version based on the Mikrotik hAP AC then you will really have my attention. The RB951G-2HnD is working well for me with the stock RouterOS, I'm just ready for the next thing. I don't think a new (even if very good) software on this same hardware will be enough of a change.

 

Speaking of RouterOS, can you tell me what limitations, if any, there are on your software versus the capabilities of RouterOS? My understanding of your software is that in order to do the things you set out to do, such as your QOS, geofilter, etc, you have to limit the control a power user would have over most functions. Is there any RouterOS left underneath, or is it a completely custom OS?

 

Edit: I also wonder how much your choice of not having a 5GHz router available was based on the lack of hardware for you to base your unit off of? I was surprised that you were able to release a product based on Mikrotik's hardware, but I think it is a good move for both companies. But I also doubt that many of the other router manufacturers would allow you to do the same thing, and so I come to my own conclusion that your lack of a AC, or even 5GHz N, product was based on what is available from Mikrotik.

[IainFraser]

Thanks for your response brwainer.

 

I'll address RouterOS first, we use OpenWRT under the hood. With of course all our additional software which at this point is many 100k of lines of code (I know loc is a terrible measurement but it does illustrated it's not just some mickey mouse plumbing). However the user does not have access to OpenWRT as that would be a support nightmare for us. We're not aiming at admin/power users in fact we do the opposite, I think we provide very advanced networking capabilities but presented in a way that even the most tech illiterate can use. We've given out about 10 free upgrades since launch and the last one was nearly exclusively in making the UI easier based on our support forum.

 

On your 5ghz points I grant you in the use-cases:

• LAN applications
• Cities with congested 2.4ghz range

It will make noticeable difference as you mentioned but still for most people on the planet that won't be the case. However we are a startup that grew organically and we were not trying to compete in that highly concentrated market. We will soon have to consider different units just because we will soon be focusing on different markets. For examples ISPs will need built-in modems.

 

So am I correct that for you, essentially the only deal-breaker/issue is the lack of 5ghz? Or are there other ways in which we can improve either the product or our message?

 

Thanks

[brwainer]

-snip-

Sorry for the double quote but I'm doing this to add something completely different to the discussion. Something I would be interested in seeing, and that I think Netfuma could really excel at with your baseline work, would be a LAN gaming optimized router/switch, perhaps based on a 12 or 24 port Mikrotik CRS model router. I'm not aware of anyone that has made a plug and play appliance really designed for small to medium sized LANs. Key features would be your geofilter and QOS, but I'd love to see a super simple pre-configured HTTP cache based on a commodity USB external drive for game downloads.

[brwainer]

Thanks for your response brwainer.

I'll address RouterOS first, we use OpenWRT under the hood. With of course all our additional software which at this point is many 100k of lines of code (I know loc is a terrible measurement but it does illustrated it's not just some mickey mouse plumbing). However the user does not have access to OpenWRT as that would be a support nightmare for us. We're not aiming at admin/power users in fact we do the opposite, I think we provide very advanced networking capabilities but presented in a way that even the most tech illiterate can use. We've given out about 10 free upgrades since launch and the last one was nearly exclusively in making the UI easier based on our support forum.

On your 5ghz points I grant you in the use-cases:

• LAN applications
• Cities with congested 2.4ghz range

It will make noticeable difference as you mentioned but still for most people on the planet that won't be the case. However we are a startup that grew organically and we were not trying to compete in that highly concentrated market. We will soon have to consider different units just because we will soon be focusing on different markets. For examples ISPs will need built-in modems.

So am I correct that for you, essentially the only deal-breaker/issue is the lack of 5ghz? Or are there other ways in which we can improve either the product or our message?

Thanks

For me yes the major dealbreaker is the lack of 5GHz. I understand very well that you need to protect the underlying system from users, and the upgrades sound like you're going to be properly supporting these devices, unlike the major players in the market. I wasn't aware you could get OpenWRT running on Mikrotik hardware, but in retrospect they don't really do anything unusual hardware wise. That still must have been a bit of a challenge seeing as I think most people just use RouterOS on Mikrotik hardware

I personally wouldn't use your hardware for the lack of RouterOS, I'm too much of a power user. But the only thing holding back my complete support of the product is 5GHz. This is not the first time the Netduma R1 has come up on this forum, and every time the message from multiple members including myself is that it's not worth it without 5GHz.

[manikyath]

--

i just want to mention that even the bottom of the barrel modem/router combos that my ISP sends out (their wifi is ungodly terrible at punching trough walls) support 5GHz, and the 2.4GHz congestion is becoming a very large issue, since even in the middle of nowhere i live (edge of a small town) i have to hop channel regularly to avoid the neighbors interfering.

[IainFraser]

Sorry for the double quote but I'm doing this to add something completely different to the discussion. Something I would be interested in seeing, and that I think Netfuma could really excel at with your baseline work, would be a LAN gaming optimized router/switch, perhaps based on a 12 or 24 port Mikrotik CRS model router. I'm not aware of anyone that has made a plug and play appliance really designed for small to medium sized LANs. Key features would be your geofilter and QOS, but I'd love to see a super simple pre-configured HTTP cache based on a commodity USB external drive for game downloads.

 

Hi brwainer,

 

Very interesting, I thought when you played LAN all you needed was a switch?

 

I've only just realised that some PC games require a connection to the server even for LAN. So of course you'd want the QoS features for that game. The Geo-Filter maybe of interest for visuals only but in general those games use server clusters. 

 

Could you elaborate on game downloads? Are these like big updates to the game and do they use http? If so that is a great idea for LANs and tournaments. Thanks for the heads up  

[IainFraser]

For me yes the major dealbreaker is the lack of 5GHz. I understand very well that you need to protect the underlying system from users, and the upgrades sound like you're going to be properly supporting these devices, unlike the major players in the market. I wasn't aware you could get OpenWRT running on Mikrotik hardware, but in retrospect they don't really do anything unusual hardware wise. That still must have been a bit of a challenge seeing as I think most people just use RouterOS on Mikrotik hardware

I personally wouldn't use your hardware for the lack of RouterOS, I'm too much of a power user. But the only thing holding back my complete support of the product is 5GHz. This is not the first time the Netduma R1 has come up on this forum, and every time the message from multiple members including myself is that it's not worth it without 5GHz.

 

 

i just want to mention that even the bottom of the barrel modem/router combos that my ISP sends out (their wifi is ungodly terrible at punching trough walls) support 5GHz, and the 2.4GHz congestion is becoming a very large issue, since even in the middle of nowhere i live (edge of a small town) i have to hop channel regularly to avoid the neighbors interfering.

 

Ok great to know guys, thanks for the feedback. 

[MeshFile]

I'm still skeptical on the QoS of the router. It can't do anything to high ping if the link from your ISP is already saturated from incoming traffic. Consumer routers that includes QoS also only have an on/off switch for the option and if some have more options, it doesn't even have documentation to guide users.

 

Wireless module can just easily be replaced by dedicated APs so I have no problem with that.

[IainFraser]

I'm still skeptical on the QoS of the router. It can't do anything to high ping if the link from your ISP is already saturated from incoming traffic. Consumer routers that includes QoS also only have an on/off switch for the option and if some have more options, it doesn't even have documentation to guide users.

 

Wireless module can just easily be replaced by dedicated APs so I have no problem with that.

 

Very good point most people don't realise that but the real problem is the incoming queue on the ISPs router. This is what a large chunk of the research is based on. I can't comment on the inner details as we're currently patent pending but essentially the devil is in the details. If you'd like to see the results please see:

 

https://netduma.com/blog/announcement-unveiling-the-worlds-greatest-qos/

 

You can replicate the results using our router and your ISP or a testbed. 

[Lamboboy63]

^^  10/10 google images  

[IainFraser]

Lol we even had to pay for that. It's stock art, we're not photographers, regardless nothing to do with QoS.

[brwainer]

Hi brwainer,

Very interesting, I thought when you played LAN all you needed was a switch?

I've only just realised that some PC games require a connection to the server even for LAN. So of course you'd want the QoS features for that game. The Geo-Filter maybe of interest for visuals only but in general those games use server clusters.

Could you elaborate on game downloads? Are these like big updates to the game and do they use http? If so that is a great idea for LANs and tournaments. Thanks for the heads up

Lets say you have a decent sized group of people, 10-20, over to play a game as a group. Some games you would be creating teams and playing on the public WAN servers, this makes it so that everyone on your team ends up on the same side of the matches. Other games offer LAN servers, or do direct P2P play. Even if it's purely a LAN game, if the developer releases an update the day of the party or shortly before, you're going to have a lot of players having to update on what probably is a very slow WAN link. You're also going to have a lot of non-game traffic, like background Windows and other updates, people browsing the internet when not in matches, etc. This is where the QOS and an HTTP cache come into play. The big community LANs like PDXLAN will have beefy redundant servers dedicated just to an HTTP cache to make sure that only the first computer downloading an update actually has to get it over the WAN. The problem is that tuning a cache for game downloads versus the normal web traffic they're set up for normally is a good deal of effort. If you could release a pre-optimized HTTP cache that jist needs you to attach a USB drive and toggle it on, that would be very interesting.

[IainFraser]

Lets say you have a decent sized group of people, 10-20, over to play a game as a group. Some games you would be creating teams and playing on the public WAN servers, this makes it so that everyone on your team ends up on the same side of the matches. Other games offer LAN servers, or do direct P2P play. Even if it's purely a LAN game, if the developer releases an update the day of the party or shortly before, you're going to have a lot of players having to update on what probably is a very slow WAN link. You're also going to have a lot of non-game traffic, like background Windows and other updates, people browsing the internet when not in matches, etc. This is where the QOS and an HTTP cache come into play. The big community LANs like PDXLAN will have beefy redundant servers dedicated just to an HTTP cache to make sure that only the first computer downloading an update actually has to get it over the WAN. The problem is that tuning a cache for game downloads versus the normal web traffic they're set up for normally is a good deal of effort. If you could release a pre-optimized HTTP cache that jist needs you to attach a USB drive and toggle it on, that would be very interesting.

 

Right thought as much, I'll definitely check it out when I get a chance. We've got quite a lot to do in our current R&D schedule. But I'll sure to post back here when we get it done