5GHz & 2.4GHz Home Network Setup

[sc1997]

Hey guys, just got a EA4500 and fiber in my house. Asi you can infer, this router is Simultaneous Dual-Band enabled, so I wanted to know how to set it up correctly. I'll live a pic of my current setup, but as the 5 and 2.4 GHz spectrums are named the same, I need to know if my devices will choose 5GHz or 2.4 GHz when more convenient?

Example:
My PS3 is close to the router so it will choose 5GHz automatically to get more speed for gaming (not that I use it anyways ;) )

My laptop is far awat so it will choose 2.4 GHz to get more range sacrifising a bit of speed.

Is this like this?

 

[AustinKZombie]

It really doesn't make a difference, if you got internet for both devices  then you did it correctly, 

[ShadyHost]

Name them something like *NAME*5GHz and *NAME*2.4GHz

 

Then on your laptop choose "connect to wireless with best connection quality"

There is an option within Windows for that. 

 

Since your PS3 doesn't move chose 5GHz

[rufee]

Devices sometimes choose a lower speed and the lower band by default so do look at the settings.

[LAwLz]

You seem to be misunderstanding dual band routers a bit. The 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands are, and should be, different networks. You should do like ShadyHost said and name them differently so that you can distinguish between them. So add "5GHz" without the "" at the end of the SSID for the 5GHz network, then connect to that one with your PS3. Then connect to the 2.4GHz network with your laptop.

 

Just naming the networks the same thing won't do anything, except confuse you and make you wonder which network you are connected to.

[ygohome]

You seem to be misunderstanding dual band routers a bit. The 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands are, and should be, different networks. You should do like ShadyHost said and name them differently so that you can distinguish between them. So add "5GHz" without the "" at the end of the SSID for the 5GHz network, then connect to that one with your PS3. Then connect to the 2.4GHz network with your laptop.

 

Just naming the networks the same thing won't do anything, except confuse you and make you wonder which network you are connected to.

 

Sorry for raising an old'ish thread but it seems relevant to a question that I have regarding simultaneous dual band routers.

 

I'm wondering if the following explanation in Linus' video is incorrect or maybe I'm misunderstand Linus.  It seems he is saying that if you have a dual band router then your wireless device/computer may be able to benefit from twice the throughput.  Is this a misconception?

 

starting at 2:11...

http://youtu.be/Jbjes_KQESg?t=2m11s

 

 

and again in the same video but starting at 3:03...

http://youtu.be/Jbjes_KQESg?t=3m3s

 

*edit:  I've seen in another of his videos (which I cannot find at the moment) where he says that if you name the SSIDs the exact same then the dual band simultaneous router will give your wireless device double the throughput.  My question is ... if this double throughput is a misconception or what?   If it is not a misconception then what is necessary on the device/computer to allow for this double throughput?  Do we need special dual band wifi adapters in our laptop/computer?  Do we need to configure/enable for channel bonding on the computer/device for the adapter?

[Blade of Grass]

Sorry for raising an old'ish thread but it seems relevant to a question that I have regarding simultaneous dual band routers.

I'm wondering if the following explanation in Linus' video is incorrect or maybe I'm misunderstand Linus. It seems he is saying that if you have a dual band router then your wireless device/computer may be able to benefit from twice the throughput. Is this a misconception?

starting at 2:11...

http://youtu.be/Jbjes_KQESg?t=2m11s

and again in the same video but starting at 3:03...

http://youtu.be/Jbjes_KQESg?t=3m3s

Yes, it is a misconception. You can only connect to one network at once (with each NIC), say you two NICs, then you can get two streams, but you won't get any more performance.

[ygohome]

Yes, it is a misconception. You can only connect to one network at once (with each NIC), say you two NICs, then you can get two streams, but you won't get any more performance.

 

Thanks.  That is what I thought.  I must've misunderstood him in the video.

[Blade of Grass]

Thanks. That is what I thought. I must've misunderstood him in the video.

An analogy to cement the idea ;)

I'm going to point this out again OP with an analogy: You're trying to get as much water as possible, so you think, hmm, maybe if I add two pipes, I'll get more water!

So you go, and you add a Y-junction to the 5" water pipe you get from the city. Splitting your water into two different 5" pipes.

Then you say "wait, I need more water, I'm going to fix this!"

So you change out one of the pipes and now you have the 5" pipe going to another 5" and a 2" pipe.

Still with me?

No matter WHAT you do, you will not be getting any more water out of that 5". You're limited by whatever amount of water the city sends you. You can't pull more water than the city gives out.

Now, that's the same as what happens with your internet. Instead of water, it's data. But no matter how you divide your network (pipes), it will still only be able to receive that limited amount of data at a time (water).

[ygohome]

That was a clever analogy.  Makes sense.

 

 

Using an n600 router as another example (300Mb/s 2.4Ghz band  +  300Mb/s 5Ghz band)

 

I see it like this :

 

 

            300Mb/s 2.4 Ghz wifi signal

LAPTOP A ---=============================\

                                          \ 300Mb/s 2.4Ghz 

                                           =================\

                                           N600 ROUTER       -------->   600Mb/s total throughput

                                           =================/

            300Mb/s 5Ghz wifi signal      / 300Mb/s 5Ghz

LAPTOP B ---=============================/

 

 

In other words, a single laptop/device can only connect to one or the other signal.  But in the above picture the total bandwidth at the router can conceivably be 600MB/s if both bands are used simultaneously but by seperate laptops... each laptop seeing 300Mb/s.

 

ANyway, I think that is how it works.  SOmeone correct me if I'm wrong.  *and I sure hope my ascii drawing displays right. lol

[LAwLz]

I'm wondering if the following explanation in Linus' video is incorrect or maybe I'm misunderstand Linus.  It seems he is saying that if you have a dual band router then your wireless device/computer may be able to benefit from twice the throughput.  Is this a misconception?

 

starting at 2:11...

http://youtu.be/Jbjes_KQESg?t=2m11s

 

 

and again in the same video but starting at 3:03...

http://youtu.be/Jbjes_KQESg?t=3m3s

Using an n600 router as another example (300Mb/s 2.4Ghz band  +  300Mb/s 5Ghz band)

 

I see it like this :

 

 

            300Mb/s 2.4 Ghz wifi signal

LAPTOP A ---=============================\

                                          \ 300Mb/s 2.4Ghz 

                                           =================\

                                           N600 ROUTER       -------->   600Mb/s total throughput

                                           =================/

            300Mb/s 5Ghz wifi signal      / 300Mb/s 5Ghz

LAPTOP B ---=============================/

 

 

In other words, a single laptop/device can only connect to one or the other signal.  But in the above picture the total bandwidth at the router can conceivably be 600MB/s if both bands are used simultaneously but by seperate laptops... each laptop seeing 300Mb/s.

Yes exactly. That's how dual band routers work. That's also why you see for example routers called N900 and then the speed is 450Mbps+450Mbps, because the 2.4GHz band can do 450Mbps, and the 5GHz can do 450Mbps.

In theory you could use two NICs and then connect to both the 5GHz and 2.4GHz band at the same time, but I am fairly sure Windows don't support that (and it would become very complex under the hood to make sure everything worked properly). I might be possible with third party hacks though.

 

 

I've seen in another of his videos (which I cannot find at the moment) where he says that if you name the SSIDs the exact same then the dual band simultaneous router will give your wireless device double the throughput.

No, putting in the same SSIDs don't do anything. The SSID is just there for our own convenience, to easily separate one network from another. When your device connects to a wireless network it also checks things like the MAC address to separate one network from another, so even if you got two SSIDs with the same name, your computer can still tell them apart.

[Timmyfox]

Unless you have super high internet speeds or live in an area with a lot of interference, this really shouldn't make much of a difference...

 

The convenience of of having the same SSID is that the devices will always pick the one they feel have the best signal strength or network connectivity and switch seamlessly. So if you're connected to the 5GHz band with your laptop and walk out of range from it, it will seamlessly switch to the 2.4GHz band (assuming it's still in range) without you ever noticing. This is of course at the cost of being able to easily see which band you're connected to.

 

If you use different SSID's for the 2.4 and 5GHz bands, you will be able to see based on that which one you're connected to and force it to connect to the one you want. However the transition won't be as seamless and you may have to reload a few pages and even restart your browser. Usually if you were in the middle of downloading something, this download might be interrupted and tell you to re-download it. This is why I say using the same SSID's are more seamless as it makes a transition instead of disconnecting one network and connecting to another.

[LAwLz]

The convenience of of having the same SSID is that the devices will always pick the one they feel have the best signal strength or network connectivity and switch seamlessly. So if you're connected to the 5GHz band with your laptop and walk out of range from it, it will seamlessly switch to the 2.4GHz band (assuming it's still in range) without you ever noticing. This is of course at the cost of being able to easily see which band you're connected to.

 

If you use different SSID's for the 2.4 and 5GHz bands, you will be able to see based on that which one you're connected to and force it to connect to the one you want. However the transition won't be as seamless and you may have to reload a few pages and even restart your browser. Usually if you were in the middle of downloading something, this download might be interrupted and tell you to re-download it. This is why I say using the same SSID's are more seamless as it makes a transition instead of disconnecting one network and connecting to another.

Well again, having the same SSID doesn't make any difference whatsoever how your device connects to a network. Like I said before, the SSID is ONLY there to make it easy for humans to distinguish between networks. Your device uses the BSSID to connect to a network, and the BSSID is the SSID, as well as a few other things such as a MAC address combined. The SSID, no matter how you name it, does not affect your devices in any way at all. It is just there to help humans understand which network is which without having to compare MAC addresses and such.

Your device will act just the same no matter if you have the same SSID, or different SSIDs on the 2.4GHz and 5GHz networks.

 

You're probably getting a bit confused because you have seen several APs broadcast the same SSID, and your can roam seamlessly between them. Those are lightweight access points and uses a WLC to keep track of which LWAPP you are connected to. It's not something you can do with "fat access points" like your home router.

[Timmyfox]

Well again, having the same SSID doesn't make any difference whatsoever how your device connects to a network. Like I said before, the SSID is ONLY there to make it easy for humans to distinguish between networks. Your device uses the BSSID to connect to a network, and the BSSID is the SSID, as well as a few other things such as a MAC address combined. The SSID, no matter how you name it, does not affect your devices in any way at all. It is just there to help humans understand which network is which without having to compare MAC addresses and such.

Your device will act just the same no matter if you have the same SSID, or different SSIDs on the 2.4GHz and 5GHz networks.

 

You're probably getting a bit confused because you have seen several APs broadcast the same SSID, and your can roam seamlessly between them. Those are lightweight access points and uses a WLC to keep track of which LWAPP you are connected to. It's not something you can do with "fat access points" like your home router.

Indeed, no difference in how it connects.

But Windows (at least) seems to treat changing to a network with a different SSID as connecting to an entirely new network, and thus ongoing progress like page loading and file downloads will need to be re-initiated. When using the same SSID's (still within the same network) this transition is entirely seamless and does not cause this.

 

I'm using a dual-router setup using two reasonably high-end Linksys routers. One of them is configured to act as access point whereas the other does the routing and manages the DHCP (because my house is too large for a single router to cover so why not use a spare router as AP?) I've done quite extensive experimentation with different configurations and found that as long as both routers use the same SSID, the transition is entirely seamless and does not cause any file downloads to need to be re-initiated and things like Skype and steam will also not require you to re-connect which was the case when using different SSID's. The exact same behaviors apply when comparing the same vs. different SSID's on the same router for the 2.4 and 5 GHz bands..

 

My school (I'm an IT/networking major btw, starting my 3rd year at "gymnasium" on Monday) uses a similar setup but with dedicated Cisco access points set up across the place.

[LAwLz]

But Windows (at least) seems to treat changing to a network with a different SSID as connecting to an entirely new network, and thus ongoing progress like page loading and file downloads will need to be re-initiated. When using the same SSID's (still within the same network) this transition is entirely seamless and does not cause this.

No it doesn't. You are just imagining things. Like I said before, your devices does not use the SSID when they connect. It doesn't matter what they are set to at all, since the only thing changing the name of the SSID does is change how it appears to humans. Your devices will act exactly the same no matter what you set your SSID to.

 

 

My school (I'm an IT/networking major btw, starting my 3rd year at "gymnasium" on Monday) uses a similar setup but with dedicated Cisco access points set up across the place.

If you're still in high school then you're not majoring in networking. You're probably just general with some emphasis on networking, and networking on high school level is fairly basic as well (yes I have read it as well). Also, your school does not use a similar setup to what you got at home. Like I tried to explain before, you're getting confused because you have seen different APs broadcast the same SSID and you can seamlessly roam between them. The APs your school uses are LAPs and they are all connected to a WLC. It uses a completely different setup from just having two routers broadcast the same SSID, or having a single router broadcast the same SSID on two bands.

 

I am sorry, but you're a classic example of "I know a tiny amount about X, and a tiny amount about Y, so I am going to make assumptions about Z, because it's kind of related to X and Y".

I don't mean that as an insult. What I mean is that you're overestimating your knowledge, and talking about things you don't really know how they work. I think you'll have a blast if you decide to study networking at a university.

[Timmyfox]

If you're still in high school then you're not majoring in networking.

You're from Sweden, you know how our system works where you choose a "line" already in High School. This can be compared to as minor/major as it to some degree does impact what majors I will be able to do later at university.

 

No it doesn't. You are just imagining things. Like I said before, your devices does not use the SSID when they connect. It doesn't matter what they are set to at all, since the only thing changing the name of the SSID does is change how it appears to humans. Your devices will act exactly the same no matter what you set your SSID to.

Well then, if I put it like this: (once again - one of the routers is configured to be an AP so all routing and the internal DHCP is disabled/bypassed and it simply acts as a slave for the other one)

 

Scenario 1 (same SSID "Example" is entered on both routers):

1. Initiate file download

2. In the middle of the download, move the physical position to get out of range from the first router and into range of the other one, causing the laptop to seamlessly connect to the other (as is confirmed by i.e. InSSIDer)

3. The download continues uninterrupted. User does not notice the transition at all.

 

Scenario 2 (different SSID's entered on each router (Example1 and Example2)

1. Initiate file download, just like before

2. In the middle of the download, connect to Example2

3. The file download will fail.

 

Well, do explain how my routers behave like this then, oh wise one. The same behaviors apply if the testing is done using a dual-band router as opposed to two different ones.

This is all done using a Windows 7 laptop and Firefox for browser. The router in question is a Linksys WRT610N updated with the latest firmware. The router acting as slave is plugged in through the first Ethernet port to bypass the routing functionality. The DHCP server is also disabled on the slave.

[LAwLz]

You're from Sweden, you know how our system works where you choose a "line" already in High School. This can be compared to as minor/major as it to some degree does impact what majors I will be able to do later at university.

Well, I wouldn't really call it a major. I would more call it "general education with emphasis on IT" (which is what I studied in high school) because the waste majority of what you study is still general subjects. I am not even sure you can call what you read in high school a major or minor. Anyway, it's not really important.

 

 

Well then, if I put it like this: (once again - one of the routers is configured to be an AP so all routing and the internal DHCP is disabled/bypassed and it simply acts as a slave for the other one)

 

[snip]

 

Well, do explain how my routers behave like this then, oh wise one. The same behaviors apply if the testing is done using a dual-band router as opposed to two different ones.

This is all done using a Windows 7 laptop and Firefox for browser. The router in question is a Linksys WRT610N updated with the latest firmware. The router acting as slave is plugged in through the first Ethernet port to bypass the routing functionality. The DHCP server is also disabled on the slave.

I don't know why your devices acts like they do, but like I have said over and over again, the SSID does not change anything about the network or how devices acts, no matter if they are the same or not. Even if you call them the same, they are still two completely different networks with their own unique BSSID.

 

Think of it this way. If you buy a NetGear router and calls your network NetGear, and enters the password, will your phone then be able to connect to any network called NetGear? No it won't, and your device will be able to tell the difference between your home NetGear network, and let's say a NetGear network you see while you want on a street in a city. It won't even try to connect to it, even though it would automatically connect to your home network. How can your device tell the difference between your NetGear network and a random NetGear network? Because your device uses the BSSID to identify networks, not the SSID.

 

Think of it this way. When you describe a car to your friend, you tell him the manufacturer and the color and maybe the model. For example "I saw a red Ferrari F430 yesterday", that's your SSID. When someone registers the car, they have to use the number plate, that's the BSSID. Even if you see two red Ferrari F430s, someone with access to a registry with car number plates will be able to tell them apart and say which red Ferrari belongs to whom. The SSID is just there to make it more convenient for us humans to distinguish between networks.

 

TL;DR: I don't know why your devices behave like that (my guess is that it was just a coincident, you're expecting a result and then trick yourself into believing it happened, or you're lying) but theoretically the SSID should not have anything to do with it.

 

Your school didn't just buy a lot of identical APs and then made them broadcast the same SSID, and roaming just works magically after that. Home networks and networks on big organisations such as your school are very different in how they are configured and what standards they use. If you're interested in how the roaming at your school works then look up LWAPP, lightweight access points and Wireless LAN Controller.