surge protectors

[RyomaSJibenG]

i have no idea about the spec for this thing, any recommendations?

[Firearm2112]

I got two Monster ones. They haven't failed on me, so Id recommend.

 

Specs wise, just dont get an unbranded cheapo one for expensive hardware

[RyomaSJibenG]

I got two Monster ones. They haven't failed on me, so Id recommend.

 

Specs wise, just dont get an unbranded cheapo one for expensive hardware

 

will look into it

any other reputable brand which you know of?

[Firearm2112]

will look into it

any other reputable brand which you know of?

I honestly grabbed my first surge protector off the shelf randomly. It happened to be a monster power one. Its served me great during lighting storms, so I bought another one

 

http://www.amazon.com/Monster-8-Outlet-Center-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B000PCVF3E/ref=sr_1_16?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1425527895&sr=1-16&keywords=monster+power+surge+protector

[Mushious]

I went with Belkin, the warranties they offer are pretty nice and the units seem to work pretty well, never had an issue with mine.

[RyomaSJibenG]

I went with Belkin, the warranties they offer are pretty nice and the units seem to work pretty well, never had an issue with mine.

 

noted will look into it

[westom]

noted will look into it

Monster has a long history of identifying scams.  Then selling an equivalent product for even higher profits.  For example, a potential destructive surge is many hundreds of thousands of joules.  How many joules does the Monster claim to absorb?  Hundreds?  A thousand?  That is near zero protection.  And just enough joules so they can claim 100% protection.  This works on people who only hear the phrase 'surge protector'.  And never learn what it does or where that energy must dissipate.

 

A completely different technology is found in facilities that cannot have damage.  This 'whole house' solution costs a homeowner about $1 per protected appliance.  It means hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly outside.  Even the protector is not damaged.

 

For example, a direct lightning strike can be 20,000 amps.  Many will claim nothing can protect from lightning because the above advertising told them what to believe.  Meanwhile a 'whole house' protector should be at least 50,000 amps.  Because direct lightning strikes should not cause damage even to a protector.

 

These superior products come from companies that make reliable electrical equipment.  They put your money into the protector. not into advertising.  They include Siemens, ABB, Ditek, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), General Electric, Ditek, Intermatic, Delta, Leviton, Syscom, Square D, and Cutler-Hammer.  The last is sold in Lowes and Home Depot.

 

Once a surge is inside the house, then nothing will avert a destructive hunt for earth.  What will the Monster, Belkin, and other undersized protector claim?  Somehow it will stop or absorb the surge.  Then many naive consumers know that nothing can protect from lightning.

 

Proven by over 100 years of science and experience is the 'whole house' solution.  Then a direct lightning strike (ie 20,000 amps) does not even damage a minimally sized 'whole house' protector (50,000 amps).  But that means learning these numbers and learning what effective protectors do.

 

The Monster at $80 is electrically equivalent to one selling in Walmart for $10.  How many joules does it claim to absorb.  This is layman simple once one explains what is significant.  Many foolishly believe the 2 cm protector part in a power strip will stop or absorb what three miles of sky could not.  Just another reason why facilities that cannot have damage do not use this inferior and excessively profitable plug-in protectors.

 

 Protection means you can say where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate outside.  So that the surge is not anywhere inside a building.  This is most important.  Plug-in protectors do not have that all so important earthing connection. 'Whole house' protectors do.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Consider protector from companies with better integrity.

[Griffscavern]

Here's the opposing view.

http://www.cepro.com/article/the_myth_of_whole_house_surge_protection/

[westom]

Here's the opposing view.

http://www.cepro.com/article/the_myth_of_whole_house_surge_protection/

 

 

The ‘opposing view' is full of contradictions and subjective claims.  For example, it claims that a 'whole house' solution is for 20% of surges.  If surges are created inside, then a 'whole house' solution also eliminates those surges.

 

Meanwhile, if 80% of surges are created inside, then a homeowner is replacing dimmer switches, dishwasher, GFCIs, TVs, clocks, and computers *hourly* or *daily*.  How often are a furnace, CFL bulbs, and smoke detectors replaced/repaired due to surges?  Any layman can appreciate a fallacy of subjective speculation.

 

How often does a 120 volt appliance generate spikes that are over 600 volts?   Industry standards for electronics long before PCs existed required spikes even that large to be non-destructive.  If an appliance created 600 volt spikes elsewhere, then it also creates a much larger spike at the source. IOW the spike generating appliance immediately destroys itself.  Subjective myths ignore that contradiction.

 

Interior generated surges are only noise. Maybe as much as 10 volts.  Even plug-in protectors have numbers ignored by that misleading report.  A plug-in protector ignores anything until a spike on the 120 VAC well exceeds 330 volts.  A number printed on every protector's box.  Why is that number ignored? Most learn from hearsay.  The cepro.com citation is a classic example  An informed layman first looks for numbers. No numbers?  Assume urban myth or wild speculation.

 

How often does a 120 volt appliance generate spikes that are over 600 volts?   Industry standards for electronics require spikes even that large to be non-destructive.  If an appliance is created 600 volt spikes elsewhere, then it is also creating a much larger spike at the source. IOW a spike generating appliance routinely destroys itself. 

 

IEEE makes recommendation in Standards.  A 'whole house' solution should only do 99.5% to 99.9% of surges according to that Standard..  Each protection layer is defined by earth ground.  A 'whole house' solution is only a 'secondary' protection layer.  Primary protection layer is provided by the utility.  More facts ignored by a subjective report.  Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

 

More facts.  A surge is a current source.  That means voltage will increase as necessary so that a surge current still flows.  Voltage increases as necessary to blow through anything that foolishly tries to stop a surge (ie series mode protector).  Even more ridiculous is another conclusion that ignores numbers.  How does a 2 cm part in a series mode filter stop what three miles of sky could not?  At what point are numbers so glaringly obvious as to suggest a scam? 

 

Number of reasons why that report - devoid of any valid or useful numbers - is bogus is just too many to list here.  Protectors adjacent to appliances are for a type of surge already made irrelevant by what is standard in appliances.  Sometimes an adjacent protector even compromises that superior and existing protection.  As we engineers demonstrated by tracing a surge destructively earthed by a network of powered off computers it was suppose to be protecting.  We did not just trace that surge.  We replaced every damaged semiconductor in the surge path making all computers function again. And submitted our findings to a review panel.  IOW we actually did this stuff.

 

Essential to every layer of protection is earth ground.  Protectors connect to protection.  Protection harmlessly dissipates hundreds of thousands of joules.  Informed homeowners quickly learn that a protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which a 'whole house' solution has and that plug-in protector (or series mode filter) obviously do not.  Earth ground separates protection from all types of surges (by companies with integrity) from another and many times more expensive plug-in protector - such as Monster.  Monster sells for $80 what is electrically equivalent to a protector in Walmart for $10.  Just more damning numbers.

 

The OP is strongly encouraged to learn that most recommendations with hard facts why and numbers are at best suspect.  Especially if one recommends products from Monster and electrical equivalents.

 

[Griffscavern]

The ‘opposing view' is full of contradictions and subjective claims. For example, it claims that a 'whole house' solution is for 20% of surges. If surges are created inside, then a 'whole house' solution also eliminates those surges.

Meanwhile, if 80% of surges are created inside, then a homeowner is replacing dimmer switches, dishwasher, GFCIs, TVs, clocks, and computers *hourly* or *daily*. How often are a furnace, CFL bulbs, and smoke detectors replaced/repaired due to surges? Any layman can appreciate a fallacy of subjective speculation.

How often does a 120 volt appliance generate spikes that are over 600 volts? Industry standards for electronics long before PCs existed required spikes even that large to be non-destructive. If an appliance created 600 volt spikes elsewhere, then it also creates a much larger spike at the source. IOW the spike generating appliance immediately destroys itself. Subjective myths ignore that contradiction.

Interior generated surges are only noise. Maybe as much as 10 volts. Even plug-in protectors have numbers ignored by that misleading report. A plug-in protector ignores anything until a spike on the 120 VAC well exceeds 330 volts. A number printed on every protector's box. Why is that number ignored? Most learn from hearsay. The cepro.com citation is a classic example An informed layman first looks for numbers. No numbers? Assume urban myth or wild speculation.

How often does a 120 volt appliance generate spikes that are over 600 volts? Industry standards for electronics require spikes even that large to be non-destructive. If an appliance is created 600 volt spikes elsewhere, then it is also creating a much larger spike at the source. IOW a spike generating appliance routinely destroys itself.

IEEE makes recommendation in Standards. A 'whole house' solution should only do 99.5% to 99.9% of surges according to that Standard.. Each protection layer is defined by earth ground. A 'whole house' solution is only a 'secondary' protection layer. Primary protection layer is provided by the utility. More facts ignored by a subjective report. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

More facts. A surge is a current source. That means voltage will increase as necessary so that a surge current still flows. Voltage increases as necessary to blow through anything that foolishly tries to stop a surge (ie series mode protector). Even more ridiculous is another conclusion that ignores numbers. How does a 2 cm part in a series mode filter stop what three miles of sky could not? At what point are numbers so glaringly obvious as to suggest a scam?

Number of reasons why that report - devoid of any valid or useful numbers - is bogus is just too many to list here. Protectors adjacent to appliances are for a type of surge already made irrelevant by what is standard in appliances. Sometimes an adjacent protector even compromises that superior and existing protection. As we engineers demonstrated by tracing a surge destructively earthed by a network of powered off computers it was suppose to be protecting. We did not just trace that surge. We replaced every damaged semiconductor in the surge path making all computers function again. And submitted our findings to a review panel. IOW we actually did this stuff.

Essential to every layer of protection is earth ground. Protectors connect to protection. Protection harmlessly dissipates hundreds of thousands of joules. Informed homeowners quickly learn that a protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which a 'whole house' solution has and that plug-in protector (or series mode filter) obviously do not. Earth ground separates protection from all types of surges (by companies with integrity) from another and many times more expensive plug-in protector - such as Monster. Monster sells for $80 what is electrically equivalent to a protector in Walmart for $10. Just more damning numbers.

The OP is strongly encouraged to learn that most recommendations with hard facts why and numbers are at best suspect. Especially if one recommends products from Monster and electrical equivalents.

Not disagreeing with you at all. I threw that up there just for the sake of argument I guess. Not taking what you say for granted, because honestly over the years, I have bought plug in surge protectors. I don't live in a lightning state like others may. Honestly what you brought up about whole house surge protectors has got me thinking about it. I would like more info on them, such as good brands, how they hook into your house lines, what's the best way to set them up, and cost and performance. I do appreciate the passion you put into the subject. Sorry if I got your dander up, but guess I needed clarification. You have exhibited that. So to my above concerns and to everyone else in this post. Any suggestions?

Thanks

Griff

[W-L]

i have no idea about the spec for this thing, any recommendations?

 

I almost always recommend this one from APC it has all the ports to surge protect anything you can think of and has a very useful layout. In most cases you want to make sure in a very generalized sense that it has a good surge protection and power cutoff to ensure it protects your equipment from sudden jumps in voltages or brownouts. 

http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=P11VNT3&tab=features

 

 

For the monster branded ones they aren't bad but just don't fooled by some of the marketing they do, if you can get a monster for >50% off then it's not a bad deal usually.

[quan289]

Well, entering this thread has given me the sense of deja vu...

[MathieuDude]

Honestly, i personally only use the cheap ones from the dollar store, they have never failed me. My region doesn't get power failures very often though, so I don't have much of a problem with surge protectors cause all the wires are underground. :3 

[westom]

 I do appreciate the passion you put into the subject. Sorry if I got your dander up, but guess I needed clarification. You have exhibited that. So to my above concerns and to everyone else in this post. Any suggestions?

 

 

First, the citation demonstrates many are easily manipulated to ignore or deny 100 years of science and experience.  For example, a next post would have us believe an APC somehow cuts off power to protect from a surge.  Again, that belief completely ignores numbers and facts.

 

Numbers: How does a millimeters gap in an APC stop what three miles of sky could not?  It doesn't.  How does a disconnect (that takes milliseconds or longer) somehow stop a surge that is done in microseconds?  It doesn't. Why recommend an APC to do what even the manufacturer does not claim?  That is the point.

 

Second, one also recommended an APC to perform a power cutoff that it clearly does not and cannot do.

 

Third, voltage jumps and brownouts do not harm electronics. Furthermore, APC does absolutely nothing for those anomalies.  To repeat another number: its 330 let-through voltage makes that obvious. 

 

Fourth, incandescent bulbs might dim to 50% intensity.  A voltage even that low is normal for electronics.  Why recommend APC for brownouts that cause no harm?  Because many if not most only believe what they are told to believe by advertising, hearsay, and wild speculation.  That is the point.  Only the informed learn to ignore such recommendations.  It's easy.  No numbers implies a scam or urban myth.

 

Fifth, power failures also do not damage electronics.  Why use a surge protector to avert power failures when 1) a blackout does not cause damage and 2) a surge protector does nothing to avert a power failure?  Why solve a problem that does not exist?

 

Sixth, makes no difference whether wires are overhead or underground.  Both can connect a surge destructively into household appliances.  A properly earthed 'whole house' protector is essential for both underground or overhead utilities.

 

Finally, this directly answers your question.  Protectors are not protection.  Protectors only connect to what does protection - single point earth ground.  Protectors are simple science.  "Art" of protecting  appliances is earth ground.  The most important component in your protection system is single point earth ground.  All four words have electrical significance.  We should expand on that maybe by first defining earth ground for your residence.

 

Someone will again ignore facts to recommend a Monster, Belkin, or Tripplite.  For the same reason that well over 50% of Americans once knew cigarette smoking increases health. Advertising said so.  So it must be true. Once someone is told something, then one will refuse to learn reality.  Many if not most of us only believe the first thing we are told. Absolutely amazing is how many are manipulated by propaganda, hearsay, and outright lies.  Both surge protectors and cigarettes demonstrate that many never learn how to think for themselves.  Meaning many will have difficulty learning or accepting the most critical component in every protection system is single point earth ground.

 

If a ground rod is buried and not visible, then it is not significant?  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  Protection is defined by earth ground; not by a protector.

[Griffscavern]

Finally, this directly answers your question. Protectors are not protection. Protectors only connect to what does protection - single point earth ground. Protectors are simple science. "Art" of protecting appliances is earth ground. The most important component in your protection system is single point earth ground. All four words have electrical significance. We should expand on that maybe by first defining earth ground for your residence.

Someone will again ignore facts to recommend a Monster, Belkin, or Tripplite. For the same reason that well over 50% of Americans once knew cigarette smoking increases health. Advertising said so. So it must be true. Once someone is told something, then one will refuse to learn reality. Many if not most of us only believe the first thing we are told. Absolutely amazing is how many are manipulated by propaganda, hearsay, and outright lies. Both surge protectors and cigarettes demonstrate that many never learn how to think for themselves. Meaning many will have difficulty learning or accepting the most critical component in every protection system is single point earth ground.

If a ground rod is buried and not visible, then it is not significant? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Protection is defined by earth ground; not by a protector.

I agree with what your saying. Lightning strikes will annihilate any electronics, surge protected or not, in your home. It seemed to me that you were recommending whole house surge protectors in your first post. The only type of protector is a proper ground outside of your home that will dissipate the surge straight into the ground. It is not something I can mount inside my circuit breaker or attach to an outlet in my home.

In my circuit box the wiring is only a few inches, if that, apart. Therefore even with a supposed whole house protector attached to my breaker box, the surge would still come through my lines and potentially cause damage to my electronics. The only way to keep that from happening is for it to be stopped before it gets into my house, or to unplug all my electronics during a storm.

Now I understand a power outage will not damage my electronics, but the surge in power to reboot the power could. Am I correct?

[westom]

In my circuit box the wiring is only a few inches, if that, apart. Therefore even with a supposed whole house protector attached to my breaker box, the surge would still come through my lines and potentially cause damage to my electronics. The only way to keep that from happening is for it to be stopped before it gets into my house, or to unplug all my electronics during a storm.

Now I understand a power outage will not damage my electronics, but the surge in power to reboot the power could. Am I correct?

A 'whole house protector works for direct lightning strikes because all wires inside a breaker box or behind the meter are connected to earth.  AC electric has three wires.  Once connects directlly to earth.  Other two 'hot' wires only connect to earth when using a 'whole house' protector.  Then direct lightning strikes do no damage.  If all wires have that connection to earth, then a direct lightning strike need not go inside the (rest of a) house to hunt for earth destructively via appliances.  Then best protection already inside appliances is not overwhelmed.

 

So, this is the issue. A connection from breaker box to earth must be low impedance.  That means no sharp bends, as short as possible, no splices, and not inside metallic conduit.  Find the bare copper, quarter inch wire that connects to earth ground rods outside.  If that wire goes up over the foundation and down to earth, then protection may be compromised.  Wire is too long.  It has sharp bends over the foundation.  Protection increases when that ground wire goes through the foundation and down to earthing electrodes.

 

The term is single point earth ground.  All incoming wires must connect to a same earthing electrodes.  For example, TV cable coax must drop down near that ground rod.  Then a hardwire makes a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth.  In this case, no protector is required.  If your cable guy was properly trained, then cable already has that protection.

 

Same applies to the telephone.  Its wires cannot connect directly to earth.  So your telco installs a 'whole house' protector for free.  Locate their NID (a gray box where their wires meet yours).  Again, a ground wire must connect from the 'whole house' proetctor inside to the same earth ground.

 

A utility demonstrates good, bad, and ugly  (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions at:

http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp

. 

Power outages do not cause damage.  But power outages may be preceeded by a surge that creates the outage.  Many will observe and outage.  Then assume a blackout or power restoration caused the damage using speculation.  Damage may be due to a surge that preceeded that blackout and power restoration. 

[Griffscavern]

A 'whole house protector works for direct lightning strikes because all wires inside a breaker box or behind the meter are connected to earth. AC electric has three wires. Once connects directlly to earth. Other two 'hot' wires only connect to earth when using a 'whole house' protector. Then direct lightning strikes do no damage. If all wires have that connection to earth, then a direct lightning strike need not go inside the (rest of a) house to hunt for earth destructively via appliances. Then best protection already inside appliances is not overwhelmed.

So, this is the issue. A connection from breaker box to earth must be low impedance. That means no sharp bends, as short as possible, no splices, and not inside metallic conduit. Find the bare copper, quarter inch wire that connects to earth ground rods outside. If that wire goes up over the foundation and down to earth, then protection may be compromised. Wire is too long. It has sharp bends over the foundation. Protection increases when that ground wire goes through the foundation and down to earthing electrodes.

The term is single point earth ground. All incoming wires must connect to a same earthing electrodes. For example, TV cable coax must drop down near that ground rod. Then a hardwire makes a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. In this case, no protector is required. If your cable guy was properly trained, then cable already has that protection.

Same applies to the telephone. Its wires cannot connect directly to earth. So your telco installs a 'whole house' protector for free. Locate their NID (a gray box where their wires meet yours). Again, a ground wire must connect from the 'whole house' proetctor inside to the same earth ground.

A utility demonstrates good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions at:

http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp

.

Power outages do not cause damage. But power outages may be preceeded by a surge that creates the outage. Many will observe and outage. Then assume a blackout or power restoration caused the damage using speculation. Damage may be due to a surge that preceeded that blackout and power restoration.

Thank you Westom. I now understand what you mean, and that diagram you referenced cemented in what I must look for. I appreciate the time you took to explain it to me. The idea of a whole house protector now makes sense, but now I have to verify that all of my incoming utility, i.e. power, phone, and catv, lines are connected to the same single point ground. I do believe they are because they are all mounted within a few feet of each other and directly below the power junction box outside. So now I breakers and to verify if the ground is connected at the single point and whether it is grounded correctly.

Thank you for this. Like I said. I do appreciate the time you took to explain it to me. You just saved me from buying an unnecessary item for each outlet that I have my delicate, tv, computers, and such, connected to. Instead I will look into a whole house protector. Before yesterday I had never heard of one. I see they are readily available at any home improvement or hardware store, and are relatively inexpensive. Even less expensive than the surge protectors.

So I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, a whp with a good amperage rating (50,000) is more than sufficient? I have looked online and they look like they only take a few minutes to connect in. Also, in my breaker box, the only open slots are below where the main comes in and after all the other breakers. Should I maneuver a circuit breaker to a lower position in order to put the whp between the main and other breakers? Or will putting it in the open position be sufficient? Also, will the whp tell me what amperage of breaker switch I need to connect to?

Thank you,

Griff

[westom]

Thank you Westom. I now understand what you mean, and that diagram you referenced cemented in what I must look for.

That 'whole house' protector is your 'secondary' protection layer. Also inspect your 'primary' protection layer. A picture demonstrates what to inspect:

http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

If compromised, then have your AC utility fix their defect.

[Griffscavern]

That 'whole house' protector is your 'secondary' protection layer. Also inspect your 'primary' protection layer. A picture demonstrates what to inspect:

http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

If compromised, then have your AC utility fix their defect.

Obviously I cannot fix those issues in that link. Guess its time for some serious research in and around my area. I do believe the utility companies around here are very conscience of their work. At least I hope so. We do get lightning storms here, but they are few and far between. Also the area I live in has only had maybe 5 or 6 power outages in the 10 years + I've lived here. One, about 6 years ago, was caused at the substation. One of their transformers pretty much caught fire and sent a nice plume of black smoke into the sky and had power down for a good 4 or 5 hours. Thanks again. Now the research begins.

[EthanTheFrogMan]

Ok, you guys have your argument, I am not going to read the whole thing, anyway, APC battery backup and surge protection is what I have used for about 10 years, it has never failed.350 watt ones are just great.

[westom]

 it has never failed.350 watt ones are just great.

... for battery backup.  Since that is only what that UPS does.   OP asked for and this topic is about something completely different - surge protection.  Your UPS does not even claim to protect from a typically destructive surge.  Only wild speculation says that APC UPS is effective surge protection. 

 

A solution, defined above, that cost tens of times less money does protection that an APC UPS obviously cannot and does not claim to do.  Should you disagree, then simply post the APC specification numbers that define protection.  BTW, nobody does for one obvious reason.