Xbox One Used game Legality

[seanhoad]

When i first heard of Microsoft's plan not to allow the resale of game my first thought was "did they consult the legal department?".

 

After a quick chat with some fellow law students and looking at a few journals it became apparent that MS or their game developers where going to have a few problems.

 

The problem mainly states from a clarification from the European Court regarding software licensing and the definition of ownership.

 

In July 2012 the European Court of Justice stated that " It is indeed permissible to resell software licenses even if the digital good has been downloaded directly from the Internet, and that the first-sale doctrine applied whenever software was originally sold to a customer for an unlimited amount of time, as such sale involves a transfer of ownership, thus prohibiting any software maker from preventing the resale of their software by any of their legitimate owners."

 

Now i would add that the above only applies if only one person has access to the game at any one time.

 

So what exactly are they planning on doing? Are they going to risk legal issues in the worlds largest single market?

[Bleedman0xx]

I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply since the Xbox online services (this includes the method of disc authorization) are based in America where we don't have such a law.

 

But then again, I'm betting Microsoft will have servers setup in European countries as well.

[Dudenstein]

I think it's going to be basically like steam and from what I know steam works fine in Europe.

[qwertywarrior]

http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/eu-court-decision-on-sales-of-used-digital-games-means-big-changes-for-steam-origin/

 

you are right

but i dont know why nothing happened yet

[KaareKanin]

I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply since the Xbox online services (this includes the method of disc authorization) are based in America where we don't have such a law.

But then again, I'm betting Microsoft will have servers setup in European countries as well.

All I know is that Apple has bended for the Norwegian consumer rights department... so I'm thinking that no matter were MS are set up, if they intend to operate within a country, they'll have to obey the local law

[seanhoad]

I think it's going to be basically like steam and from what I know steam works fine in Europe.

The above has been used against steam. Obviously no one can be bothered to take steam to court over a game but law students working on a dissertation certainly will. Steam is not able to give you the game to sell but in the EU they are obliged to refund you an equivalent to the games physical copy resale value. 

 

And to clarify, the fact that Microsoft are based in the US has no standing as failing to comply with a EU court ruling can incur an immediate ban on sales through the union, and this is very easy to implement with a physical product such as a CD or DVD. 

[Bleedman0xx]

All I know is that Apple has bended for the Norwegian consumer rights department... so I'm thinking that no matter were MS are set up, if they intend to operate within a country, they'll have to obey the local law

Yeah, just like how Germany requires that the Xbox not be always powered on or always listening.

[techie]

think that's bad? If you get permabanned from your console, you lose access to your games since you can't log in to do the 24 hour check in. 

pretty sure this is really illegal too

[seanhoad]

I'm sure someone will bring this to the attention of the Court of Justice. I honestly don't care about the new Xbox as theirs no chance i'm getting one but i can't stand the fact the MS and others are ignoring the basic definitions of ownership and sale. Its a slippery slope.

 

How would you feel if BMW said you had to pay them a fee when you sell you car, or that your not able to sell it at all.

[eshbop]

That's all well and good, but since when was MS "not allowing the resale of games"?

[eshbop]

think that's bad? If you get permabanned from your console, you lose access to your games since you can't log in to do the 24 hour check in. 

pretty sure this is really illegal too

If it's in the games licence it wouldn't be.

[qwertywarrior]

we should really have a Union or something  to fight this

since consumers are treated like cattle  in the US

 

pretty sure the EU will hurt these guys badly

gabe newell criticizes microsoft but he turns a blind eye when he does this crap 

[KaareKanin]

If it's in the games licence it wouldn't be.

 

No license agreement can circumvent statutory rights. 

[qwertywarrior]

If it's in the games licence it wouldn't be.

are serious lol

you  reminded me of this

 

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/contract-for-family-sex-abuse/story-e6freoof-1111119053230

[eshbop]

KaareKanin, on 15 Jun 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

KaareKanin, on 15 Jun 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

No license agreement can circumvent statutory rights.

You realize in buying a game you never own it right? You're just renting a copy of the license to it. Therefore breaching it's ToS/EULA, by in this case being dump enough to get yourself banned, is hardly a breach of statutory rights. You've agreed that if you do something that warrants you being banned you're license is revoked.

Might make people think twice before engaging in behavior that has the potential to get them banned, is that a bad thing? Do you do this? Is that why you care?

I'm quiet sure MS would of thoroughly looked into the legal implications of all this before deciding to do it. Assuming so, I'll trust the judgement of the lawyers hired by this mutli million (billion?) dollar company.

[seanhoad]

“Therefore, even if the licence agreement prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy. “

 

 The above phrase is the real killer, and as it has gone through the highest court there is no option to appeal the ruling. Unfortunately the various cases currently running against Steam (not by individuals but by consumer rights organisations) are being slowed down by various loop holes even if the outcome is certain. 

[qwertywarrior]

You realize in buying a game you never own it right? You're just renting a copy of the license to it.

I'm quiet sure MS would of thoroughly looked into the legal implications of all this before deciding to do it. Assuming so, I'll trust the judgement of the lawyers hired by this mutli million (billion?) dollar company.

 

yeah judgment of lawyers

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/06/us-eu-microsoft-idUSBRE92500520130306

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation#European_Union

[KaareKanin]

You realize in buying a game you never own it right? You're just renting a copy of the license to it. Therefore breaching it's ToS/EULA, by in this case being dump enough to get yourself banned, is hardly a breach of statutory rights. You've agreed that if you do something that warrants you being banned you're license is revoked.

 

Not everywhere in the world. I can pretty much guarantee you that this sort of thing would be illegal in Norway at least

[eshbop]

yeah judgment of lawyers

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/06/us-eu-microsoft-idUSBRE92500520130306

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation#European_Union

You're comparing the the ToS of games to anti-competitive behavior from 20 years ago? I don't think there's much of a comparison.

[SirReallySam]

think that's bad? If you get permabanned from your console, you lose access to your games since you can't log in to do the 24 hour check in. 

pretty sure this is really illegal too

that is brutal ! :O

[seanhoad]

You realize in buying a game you never own it right? You're just renting a copy of the license to it.

I'm quiet sure MS would of thoroughly looked into the legal implications of all this before deciding to do it. Assuming so, I'll trust the judgement of the lawyers hired by this mutli million (billion?) dollar company.

 

If you called up MS and asked them if they where providing you with a lifetime lease for a product they would be the first to deny it. If that was the case i would still be able to get support for windows 98 up to the day i die. No believe me they want to sell you the game

 

I'm sure they have a very skilled legal dpt but if the Steam case is successful then it makes no difference who they are. 

 

At any rate the main question is why are they trying to deprive us gamers of our consumer rights, if they want to lease us a game for 2-3 years then ok but don't claim your selling it to me.

[qwertywarrior]

You're comparing the the ToS of games to anti-competitive behavior from 20 years ago? I don't think there's much of a comparison.

it says 2009 and they paid in 2013

 

im talking about their behavior

at the end these are businesses

they dont care about consumers

they want money any way they can get it

they set rules that we have to get used to

i swear sometimes i keep remembering Orwell's 1984  each time i hear the phrase "deal with it"

[ALXAndy]

This law doesn't apply to the UK or the USA IIRC. I think it's Germany that it does, where you can legally sell your Steam account.

 

They won't change it, they will just do what they always do and pay the fines as they work out cheaper than allowing the games to be sold.

[MooseParade]

Just because a court in Country A rules something it doesn't mean that Company B has to follow it for the rest of the world. If the law states that XBone can't ban used games (which it's not, it's leaving that up to the discretion of the publisher) then the UK should ban the XBone. 

It all goes back to if you don't like it, don't buy it. 

[ALXAndy]

It all goes back to if you don't like it, don't buy it. 

 

Absolutely. Which seems to be the way things are headed. My friend lives in rural Maryland and went to four Walmarts yesterday trying to reserve a game for PS4. He couldn't as they had all sold out already.

 

I think like Windows 8 Microsoft have basically taken a step too far, too soon. We're not ready to be completely controlled yet and have decisions made for us.