Asrock M8 Transplant Project

[rodion.zissou]

The (crazy?) Plan to Swap into an Asrock M8

 

I happened across this awesome bare bones pc thanks to @Name Taken in response to a right angle pcie adapter question. I love it's size, aesthetics, supposed build quality (designed by BMW's DesignworksUSA), and nifty features like on-board amp powering front audio, possible 6 fan config, standard mitx compatibility, and even a physical lock and key system for lan parties! I haven't been able to find the case by itself, but I'm so enamored I'm trying to hatch a plan. I want to simply buy the barebones kit, and hock my current build sans the storage and GPU, which will go in the m8.

 

Questions and Concerns

 

The PSU is 450w, which is the minimum that can run my 780 and 4790k (what do you think about that?)

The chipset is last gen z87, so I'd be downgrading from a z97 to z87 (how much longer will z87 be relevant, does it matter?)

Thermal throttling : I'm inexperienced with mitx builds, so not having room for high-grade cooling solutions worries me. I know I won't be doing any overclocking, but should I worry about my 780 or 4790k temperature throttling?

 

Details and Pricing Factors to Consider

 

All of my parts were purchased brand new less than 2 months ago, and are still under warranty. I think I can sell parts for at least 75% of original price through Amazon or CL. Prices in USD. Links are general Amazon and Newegg prices; I'll post links in classifieds if I decide to list.

 

Selling

 

• Asus Sabertooth Z97 Mark 1 (5yr warranty) - $238.99
• Define R4 - $130.49 
• Corsair RM650 - $104.99 (5yr Warranty)
• Corsair Vengeance LP (2x8GB) - $185.74
• NZXT x41 - $109.99

 

Total x 75% = $557.40

 

Buying

 

• Asrock M8 -$360.49 (open box)
• Corsair Vengeance (2x8GB) SODIMM - $152.00

 

Total = $544.97 (before tax)

 

If I sell everything at least 75% of normal price, and get the current deals posted for the replacement items, I'd be looking at a pretty even swap. Taking shipping options and tax into account, I might loose around $100 after all is said and done. I'd be making a downgrade in expandability (no SLI, and older chipset), I wonder how much that really matters. I'm also inexperienced with MITX builds, and wonder what kind of performance hit to expect from Asrock M8 with it's smaller cooling solution than my current 3x140mm case fans plus 140mm AIO in the R4. I'd really like to hear some opinions on this lateral flat grade type plan.

[rodion.zissou]

bump

[brob]

The reference GTX 780 has a TDP of 250W. I doubt the EVGA you have is any less. Asrock suggests a max gpu TDP of 200W.

[rodion.zissou]

The reference GTX 780 has a TDP of 250W. I doubt the EVGA you have is any less. Asrock suggests a max gpu TDP of 200W.

I know, but I think it'll be alright. Because...

 

Linus shows system with gtx 780 and 4770k pulling 460w total from the wall. 

 

Ian Cutress of Anandtech states in his review of the M8 :

The 450W power supply is plenty for any GPU up to ASRock’s recommended 200W maximum, even though we topped out at ~250W at the wall under a GPU heavy load, meaning that I think that this PSU would handle 300W graphics cards – the only issue then would be heat removal.

 

[brob]

I know, but I think it'll be alright. Because...

 

Linus shows system with gtx 780 and 4770k pulling 460w total from the wall. 

 

Ian Cutress of Anandtech states in his review of the M8 :

 

It is doubtful that Anandtech ran the system under gaming loads for weeks or months. While the psu may be able to handle the load for a few tests. I am not sure that it or the rest of the system will last for years, especially if it runs hot.

[rodion.zissou]

It is doubtful that Anandtech ran the system under gaming loads for weeks or months. While the psu may be able to handle the load for a few tests. I am not sure that it or the rest of the system will last for years, especially if it runs hot.

 

A couple things to consider would be the gtx 900 series alleged 170w TDP (even if it's not that low, it will probably be lower because lower power consumption seems to be a main goal for this series); I will be getting a 900 series card on launch so that will be much less time for the 780 on the provided psu. Another option would be to replace the psu with something like the recently announced 600w SFX by SilverStone whenever it get's released, thus shortening the time with included PSU.

 

What do you think about either of those scenarios?

[brob]

A couple things to consider would be the gtx 900 series alleged 170w TDP (even if it's not that low, it will probably be lower because lower power consumption seems to be a main goal for this series); I will be getting a 900 series card on launch so that will be much less time for the 780 on the provided psu. Another option would be to replace the psu with something like the recently announced 600w SFX by SilverStone whenever it get's released, thus shortening the time with included PSU.

 

What do you think about either of those scenarios?

 

The GTX 9xx series may well provide a solution.

 

According to http://www.kitguru.net/desktop-pc/luke-hill/asrock-m8-mini-itx-z87-barebones-system-review/5/ the psu is not the easiest thing to replace. But it certainly is an option.

 

With a more powerful gpu, cooling might become a significant issue. A blower style card might help.

[rodion.zissou]

The GTX 9xx series may well provide a solution.

According to http://www.kitguru.net/desktop-pc/luke-hill/asrock-m8-mini-itx-z87-barebones-system-review/5/ the psu is not the easiest thing to replace. But it certainly is an option.

With a more powerful gpu, cooling might become a significant issue. A blower style card might help.

Yes, I agree. A blower would be best.

[rodion.zissou]

The GTX 9xx series may well provide a solution.

 

According to http://www.kitguru.net/desktop-pc/luke-hill/asrock-m8-mini-itx-z87-barebones-system-review/5/ the psu is not the easiest thing to replace. But it certainly is an option.

 

With a more powerful gpu, cooling might become a significant issue. A blower style card might help.

Here's Wendell from Tek Syndicate explaining that a 780 should work in here.

[craftyhack]

TL;DR:  I have and love this case as well, and have a similar config, but power is indeed a major concern, as is cooling.  With the right gear (you need a 780Ti with a GREAT cooler, the Nvidia reference blower vapor design isn't good enough, at least not the one on the 690...).  As Z97-M8 is on the way,after what I am going through with this Z87-M8, everything I want and more is in the Z97-M8 version, the cooling problems can be dealt with (and if you have the guts, you can do even better than I did to make it both cooler and quieter if you cut a hole in the plexi ).

 

I researched the heck out of this case, watching Tek, Linus, etc. and reading Tom's review (best of all reviews I think regarding info) plus as many forum posts and reviews (Newegg has the best) as I could find, and then decided to take on the challenge.

 

1)  ASRock shows a Z97-M8 at PAX that not only goes with the Z97 that more natively supports Devil's Canyon (Z87-M8 doesn't show a compatible BIOS update on ASRock's site and I cannot find anyone running a 4690k or 4790k in the M8, even though ASRock did update their standard Z87-mitx BIOS , so I dunno if i series Devil's canyon will even work correctly in Z87 M8... yet).  ALSO, and more importantly, the Z97-M8 has a 600W 80+GOLD PSU, Z87-M8 has 450W 80+ bronze.  So something to think about:  http://www.asrock.com/Nettop/overview.asp?cat=Memory&Model=M8%20Series%20(Z97)

 

2)  ExoticPC has options to build you an M8 with a 4790k and Matrix Platinum ROG cards, very power hungry beasts.  But, for their top two tiers, they don't give you a choice on sticking with the stock PSU, you have to upgrade to the SilverStone 450W.  I assume this is because the dang 450W FSP PSU in the Z87-M8 has 2x18A 12V rails  (according to the sticker I found on the M8 PSU) instead of the single 37A 12V rail like the Silverstone ST45SF-G, and perhaps it also has higher quality caps that will last at higher sustained operating temps combined with the fact that it should run cooler as the SilverStone is 80+Gold vs. the Z87-FSP PSU being 80+Bronze.  I have looked at getting the Silverstone myself(either the 450 or the new 600 would be even better), but it would be a PITA, and more expensive than just upgrading to the Z97-M8(after selling the Z87 version) given the included cabling with the SilverStone's doesn't work AT ALL for the M8, for routing(cable length and style (flat vs. round & sheathed) very important for the M8 given it's weird but fairly inflexible config on component placement, especially given the three cables running along the back you can see through the left window), the number and type of terminators, etc.

 

3)  I fell in love with the case as well and picked it up on a sale from the egg for $400 (new, after dumping the bundled games that came in the promo), and thinking it was only temporary until I could sell older parts to get better components, I went with a G3258, 1 256GB 840 EVO, and 16GB (2x8GB GSkill Ripjaw F3-1600C9S-8GRSL).  I put in my old GTX 690, and it ran OK, but MAN DOES IT GET HOT.  And this is only at a 4.2 GHz overclock, where I am using the Zalman CNPS8900 (based on Tom's roundup of low profile coolers, where they picked the Zalman even over the Thermalright for the M8, and I agree the Zalman works well in this case).  After modding the case a bit I got it to a much better place with airflow (removing ALL filters inside the case including ripping out the steel filters spot welded on the bottom fans as they were worthless given I secured all cables so no worries there and that really impacted airflow and lowered temps AND noise in a big way. I also flipped the bottom fans to be both intakes and the tops to be both exhausts, replacing all 4 fans from the stock "FD127010LB-H" to "FD127010HB-H" models, see chart here (http://www.ystech.com.tw/ysfan/products_detail.asp?id=43) for the rather large difference percentage wise in both CFM and SP.  Finally, I custom mate feet for it to sith on that raise it about 2.5" as when it sits on the tiny rubber feet the intakes on the bottom got almost no air.  After all of that I got CPU temps under control, never getting above 67 C (27C ambient) running AIDA64.  Now the GPU on the other hand was another problem (and I have no idea what the PSU temps look like ).  Even though it was a blower design which I thought would be better for this case... not so much, probably due to the lack of enough fresh air intake, it would regularly hit 90C+ on Unigen/gaming and continue to creep up.  I was also having some issues with games I shouldn't have been with a card of that caliber (like <30FPS in TR2013 @ 1440p with all of the recommended tweaks and medium settings, this is not a CPU intense game, so something with the 690 maybe).  Not wanting to cut a hole in the side for additional intake as ASRock will NOT sell me another side panel no matter how much I begged (just in case ), I looked for alternatives.

 

I found the ASUS ROG Matrix Platinum 780Ti on sale for $560 on Newegg (price mistake, but they shipped it, now sold out though), and not only did it fit PERFECTLY(aka BARELY ) both regarding size and color.  It also has the best air cooler for the 780Ti I know of on the planet (stock anyway, that you can buy, that is 2 slot).  All of my game play capabilities have increased dramatically, AND the card boosts to 1250 stock yet never gets above 78C or so GPU after hours of gaming on TR2013 Ultra settings, 1440p (I think I did over 10 hrs straight of TR with no crashing, etc., min frame rates in the 60s on Ultra everything, even turned on after effects and other cool but taxing stuff, no hairfx or whatever tho ).  THe thing that sucks is that the VRMs hit 100C, but they are rated for 105 steady according to ASUS here so I shouldn't worry (http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?46389-ASUS-GTX780Ti-DC2OC-_-VRM-are-Very-Very-HoT!/page3), and supposedly I can increase the fan curve and also add some thermal pads so the VRM components are in contact with the back plate to lower the temps a good bit.  As my VRMs being able to boil water bothers me I plan on doing that .  The big problem is with this M8 case design, the backplate for this card (and pretty much the back of any card is a mere 1 or 2 mm from the riser card frame, so there is almost 0 airflow going across the backplate .  I have some work to do to see if I can tame this problem as the VRM temps make me nervous,, 3 year warranty is great, but I would rather not deal with RMA BS.

 

Finally, the most important part... power consumption.  First, I have no idea how the 780Ti is performing as well as it is with an 18A rail, but it is.  Maybe the FSP sticker that is on my PSU is wrong and it really is a single rail, I dunno?  Anyway, using a Kill-A-Watt, when running Aidi64 (including GPU stress) or Unigen Heaven/Valley, I average about 380W from the wall, highest it ever hit was 400W.  I know that PFC can screw things up, but I only got what I got to measure with .  Anyway, using the highest efficiency bronze is rated at (85%), that means that my current config is pulling 340W.  I would really like to put at least a 4690k in it for other more CPU intensive games (and to be able to run antivirus, etc. without my gaming suffering ), but I am worried I will be pushing the power envelope too far.  Obviously I would much prefer a 4790k for a mere $80 more(Microcenter rocks) to get stock increase of 500Mhz, HT, more cache, etc., but again heat goes up and power at load goes up even more.  FInally, I don't even know if the dang things will run in this Z87-M8 board correctly since ASRock hasn't released a BIOS that says it is compatible .  Finally, I certainly want to add more drives to this, one of the reasons that I got it was for 5 SSD/2.5HDD capability for a huge installed steam library, media for HTPC usage, etc.... again more power needed though .  Even if all that runs, if I plug an iPad into the USB slot, will my PSU then blow up?  I dunno, but living on the edge like this sucks, and who knows how long the PSU will last running like this, I have no idea of the quality of the caps in this thing, no reviews whatsoever of this FSP 450W SFX PSU that I can find .

 

So, if I knew that the 600W 80+Gold Z97-M8 was coming a couple of months ago when I got the Z87 version, I DEFINITELY would have waited.  All of the problems that I need to solve are taken care of in the new version for a few hundred cheaper than if I solved them myself with my Z87 version(buying Silverstone 600W with custom cabling, replacement Z97 for compliance with Dveils Canyon and maybe Broadwell(I would use ASUS Impact VII though), where Broadwell should rock in this case), and the Z97 is the only mITX board I know of with 6 SATA ports and Core3D on board, and I WILL use them... if I have the power .

 

In my case, I am going to get a 4790k and see if it runs just out of curiosity for the short term and probably underclock it and the GPU in the short term (should still game and perform just fine), and do my best to try and get one of of the 600W PSUs from ASRock.  If I can't get one, then I haven't yet decided whether I will get the Z97-M8 or say screw it and completely redo my Z87-M8 with an ASUS Impact VII, SilverStone 600W with custom cabling, and work on some more creative cooling solutions to make this little build even more unique, basically a ROG mITX build with an ASRock case .

[rodion.zissou]

TL;DR: I have and love this case as well, and have a similar config, but power is indeed a major concern, as is cooling. With the right gear (you need a 780Ti with a GREAT cooler, the Nvidia reference blower vapor design isn't good enough, at least not the one on the 690...). As Z97-M8 is on the way,after what I am going through with this Z87-M8, everything I want and more is in the Z97-M8 version, the cooling problems can be dealt with (and if you have the guts, you can do even better than I did to make it both cooler and quieter if you cut a hole in the plexi ).

I researched the heck out of this case, watching Tek, Linus, etc. and reading Tom's review (best of all reviews I think regarding info) plus as many forum posts and reviews (Newegg has the best) as I could find, and then decided to take on the challenge.

1) ASRock shows a Z97-M8 at PAX that not only goes with the Z97 that more natively supports Devil's Canyon (Z87-M8 doesn't show a compatible BIOS update on ASRock's site and I cannot find anyone running a 4690k or 4790k in the M8, even though ASRock did update their standard Z87-mitx BIOS , so I dunno if i series Devil's canyon will even work correctly in Z87 M8... yet). ALSO, and more importantly, the Z97-M8 has a 600W 80+GOLD PSU, Z87-M8 has 450W 80+ bronze. So something to think about: http://www.asrock.com/Nettop/overview.asp?cat=Memory&Model=M8%20Series%20(Z97)

2) ExoticPC has options to build you an M8 with a 4790k and Matrix Platinum ROG cards, very power hungry beasts. But, for their top two tiers, they don't give you a choice on sticking with the stock PSU, you have to upgrade to the SilverStone 450W. I assume this is because the dang 450W FSP PSU in the Z87-M8 has 2x18A 12V rails (according to the sticker I found on the M8 PSU) instead of the single 37A 12V rail like the Silverstone ST45SF-G, and perhaps it also has higher quality caps that will last at higher sustained operating temps combined with the fact that it should run cooler as the SilverStone is 80+Gold vs. the Z87-FSP PSU being 80+Bronze. I have looked at getting the Silverstone myself(either the 450 or the new 600 would be even better), but it would be a PITA, and more expensive than just upgrading to the Z97-M8(after selling the Z87 version) given the included cabling with the SilverStone's doesn't work AT ALL for the M8, for routing(cable length and style (flat vs. round & sheathed) very important for the M8 given it's weird but fairly inflexible config on component placement, especially given the three cables running along the back you can see through the left window), the number and type of terminators, etc.

3) I fell in love with the case as well and picked it up on a sale from the egg for $400 (new, after dumping the bundled games that came in the promo), and thinking it was only temporary until I could sell older parts to get better components, I went with a G3258, 1 256GB 840 EVO, and 16GB (2x8GB GSkill Ripjaw F3-1600C9S-8GRSL). I put in my old GTX 690, and it ran OK, but MAN DOES IT GET HOT. And this is only at a 4.2 GHz overclock, where I am using the Zalman CNPS8900 (based on Tom's roundup of low profile coolers, where they picked the Zalman even over the Thermalright for the M8, and I agree the Zalman works well in this case). After modding the case a bit I got it to a much better place with airflow (removing ALL filters inside the case including ripping out the steel filters spot welded on the bottom fans as they were worthless given I secured all cables so no worries there and that really impacted airflow and lowered temps AND noise in a big way. I also flipped the bottom fans to be both intakes and the tops to be both exhausts, replacing all 4 fans from the stock "FD127010LB-H" to "FD127010HB-H" models, see chart here (http://www.ystech.com.tw/ysfan/products_detail.asp?id=43) for the rather large difference percentage wise in both CFM and SP. Finally, I custom mate feet for it to sith on that raise it about 2.5" as when it sits on the tiny rubber feet the intakes on the bottom got almost no air. After all of that I got CPU temps under control, never getting above 67 C (27C ambient) running AIDA64. Now the GPU on the other hand was another problem (and I have no idea what the PSU temps look like ). Even though it was a blower design which I thought would be better for this case... not so much, probably due to the lack of enough fresh air intake, it would regularly hit 90C+ on Unigen/gaming and continue to creep up. I was also having some issues with games I shouldn't have been with a card of that caliber (like <30FPS in TR2013 @ 1440p with all of the recommended tweaks and medium settings, this is not a CPU intense game, so something with the 690 maybe). Not wanting to cut a hole in the side for additional intake as ASRock will NOT sell me another side panel no matter how much I begged (just in case ), I looked for alternatives.

I found the ASUS ROG Matrix Platinum 780Ti on sale for $560 on Newegg (price mistake, but they shipped it, now sold out though), and not only did it fit PERFECTLY(aka BARELY ) both regarding size and color. It also has the best air cooler for the 780Ti I know of on the planet (stock anyway, that you can buy, that is 2 slot). All of my game play capabilities have increased dramatically, AND the card boosts to 1250 stock yet never gets above 78C or so GPU after hours of gaming on TR2013 Ultra settings, 1440p (I think I did over 10 hrs straight of TR with no crashing, etc., min frame rates in the 60s on Ultra everything, even turned on after effects and other cool but taxing stuff, no hairfx or whatever tho ). THe thing that sucks is that the VRMs hit 100C, but they are rated for 105 steady according to ASUS here so I shouldn't worry (http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?46389-ASUS-GTX780Ti-DC2OC-_-VRM-are-Very-Very-HoT!/page3), and supposedly I can increase the fan curve and also add some thermal pads so the VRM components are in contact with the back plate to lower the temps a good bit. As my VRMs being able to boil water bothers me I plan on doing that . The big problem is with this M8 case design, the backplate for this card (and pretty much the back of any card is a mere 1 or 2 mm from the riser card frame, so there is almost 0 airflow going across the backplate . I have some work to do to see if I can tame this problem as the VRM temps make me nervous,, 3 year warranty is great, but I would rather not deal with RMA BS.

Finally, the most important part... power consumption. First, I have no idea how the 780Ti is performing as well as it is with an 18A rail, but it is. Maybe the FSP sticker that is on my PSU is wrong and it really is a single rail, I dunno? Anyway, using a Kill-A-Watt, when running Aidi64 (including GPU stress) or Unigen Heaven/Valley, I average about 380W from the wall, highest it ever hit was 400W. I know that PFC can screw things up, but I only got what I got to measure with . Anyway, using the highest efficiency bronze is rated at (85%), that means that my current config is pulling 340W. I would really like to put at least a 4690k in it for other more CPU intensive games (and to be able to run antivirus, etc. without my gaming suffering ), but I am worried I will be pushing the power envelope too far. Obviously I would much prefer a 4790k for a mere $80 more(Microcenter rocks) to get stock increase of 500Mhz, HT, more cache, etc., but again heat goes up and power at load goes up even more. FInally, I don't even know if the dang things will run in this Z87-M8 board correctly since ASRock hasn't released a BIOS that says it is compatible . Finally, I certainly want to add more drives to this, one of the reasons that I got it was for 5 SSD/2.5HDD capability for a huge installed steam library, media for HTPC usage, etc.... again more power needed though . Even if all that runs, if I plug an iPad into the USB slot, will my PSU then blow up? I dunno, but living on the edge like this sucks, and who knows how long the PSU will last running like this, I have no idea of the quality of the caps in this thing, no reviews whatsoever of this FSP 450W SFX PSU that I can find .

So, if I knew that the 600W 80+Gold Z97-M8 was coming a couple of months ago when I got the Z87 version, I DEFINITELY would have waited. All of the problems that I need to solve are taken care of in the new version for a few hundred cheaper than if I solved them myself with my Z87 version(buying Silverstone 600W with custom cabling, replacement Z97 for compliance with Dveils Canyon and maybe Broadwell(I would use ASUS Impact VII though), where Broadwell should rock in this case), and the Z97 is the only mITX board I know of with 6 SATA ports and Core3D on board, and I WILL use them... if I have the power .

In my case, I am going to get a 4790k and see if it runs just out of curiosity for the short term and probably underclock it and the GPU in the short term (should still game and perform just fine), and do my best to try and get one of of the 600W PSUs from ASRock. If I can't get one, then I haven't yet decided whether I will get the Z97-M8 or say screw it and completely redo my Z87-M8 with an ASUS Impact VII, SilverStone 600W with custom cabling, and work on some more creative cooling solutions to make this little build even more unique, basically a ROG mITX build with an ASRock case .

It's great to get feedback from someone who purchased and wants to push it's limits. Thanks for all the info! So I guess in my shoes it'd be better to wait it out for the z97 since I'm planning to use my 4790k. Have you seen it listed anywhere? One thing you didn't touch on was noise. I've read this thing is loud and I'd imagine so with 4 70mm fans. Have you been able to find quiet and effective fans to replace stock? Can 2 additional fans be mounted in front?

[craftyhack]

It's great to get feedback from someone who purchased and wants to push it's limits. Thanks for all the info! So I guess in my shoes it'd be better to wait it out for the z97 since I'm planning to use my 4790k. Have you seen it listed anywhere? One thing you didn't touch on was noise. I've read this thing is loud and I'd imagine so with 4 70mm fans. Have you been able to find quiet and effective fans to replace stock? Can 2 additional fans be mounted in front?

Just like you heard on the Tek review if you watched that, yep, it CAN get loud.  With the changes that I made it is much quieter than when I first purchased, even while gaming, but when running benches that push it to 100%, it still can get pretty loud.  I game with volume high though (or with a headset), where in either case it is not a big deal for me.  it would miserably fail Linus' silence test though .  I have 3 different models that I went through(and who knows how many reviews I read for all 20 models of this sized fan that exists), and I have come to the conclusion that there are no 70mmx10mm fans in existence that have the high SP needed for this case, that have a good enough CFM for this case, and operate say below 20-25dB .  That said, it does come with fan control software that allows you to deal with ito a great degree, but you will hear it under heavy load, no doubt abut that.

 

I also purchased some thicker 70mm fans (like some evercool 70mmx25mm) that were much better in this respect, but they will only fit in the top if I am not using my Matrix Platinum... so no go there,  If your card is say 20mm more narrow than the Matrix, then you could probably use those and it would make a difference for half of the fans, but the ones on the bottom would require much more work given they are surrounded my metal framing that prevents any substitution.

 

When I replace the CPU I am going to completely dis-assemble it again (a couple hour project BTW, what a PITA, and I have done it like 10 times, it doesn't get any more fun ), and I will see if I can find any opportunities anywhere to improve cooling performance while making it quieter, perhaps even some type of watercooling (the Impact VI and VII have a full MB waterblock available (CPU, VRMS, and chipset), all I would need to find room for is a res, pump, and rad, and fans for the rad ).

 

EDIT:  anyone know of a 140mmx70mm=10mm fan/rad combo ?  I may be able to get away with 20mm thick combined if I pull out the cutting torch .  I am pretty sure I can find a pump res combo that is small enough to locate somewhere, but none of the usual suspects (frozencpu, frostytech, performance-pcs, etc.) have a rad in any dimension I can find that will come even close to being workable.  I even considered a hole in one of the side windows to mount the thinnest 120mmx120mm rad available (which I bought for this project), but not even close, that window is smaller than it looks, and clearance inside the case is also a show stopper.  I REALLY don't want to build/mod any extrusions for the case, although I am starting to wonder if building and external WC setup that looks cool is something to consider just because... but dang that would be a lot of work and turn an easily portable killer LAN rig into a somewhat clunky solution, I would rather get an N1 MCase and customize the crap out of that instead, I bet some things can be done to make that case a real looker.

[rodion.zissou]

Just like you heard on the Tek review if you watched that, yep, it CAN get loud. With the changes that I made it is much quieter than when I first purchased, even while gaming, but when running benches that push it to 100%, it still can get pretty loud. I game with volume high though (or with a headset), where in either case it is not a big deal for me. it would miserably fail Linus' silence test though . I have 3 different models that I went through(and who knows how many reviews I read for all 20 models of this sized fan that exists), and I have come to the conclusion that there are no 70mmx10mm fans in existence that have the high SP needed for this case, that have a good enough CFM for this case, and operate say below 20-25dB . That said, it does come with fan control software that allows you to deal with ito a great degree, but you will hear it under heavy load, no doubt abut that.

I also purchased some thicker 70mm fans (like some evercool 70mmx25mm) that were much better in this respect, but they will only fit in the top if I am not using my Matrix Platinum... so no go there, If your card is say 20mm more narrow than the Matrix, then you could probably use those and it would make a difference for half of the fans, but the ones on the bottom would require much more work given they are surrounded my metal framing that prevents any substitution.

When I replace the CPU I am going to completely dis-assemble it again (a couple hour project BTW, what a PITA, and I have done it like 10 times, it doesn't get any more fun ), and I will see if I can find any opportunities anywhere to improve cooling performance while making it quieter, perhaps even some type of watercooling (the Impact VI and VII have a full MB waterblock available (CPU, VRMS, and chipset), all I would need to find room for is a res, pump, and rad, and fans for the rad ).

A rad? Well definitely let me know if you get that in. Noise is an issue, because I use open phones and my room is pretty eco-y. You've done a lot of leg work and in turn can help all the people planning to use the M8. Good luck dialing in your rig, and I'll be sure to let you know if / when I work with the Z97 model.

[craftyhack]

A rad? Well definitely let me know if you get that in. Noise is an issue, because I use open phones and my room is pretty eco-y. You've done a lot of leg work and in turn can help all the people planning to use the M8. Good luck dialing in your rig, and I'll be sure to let you know if / when I work with the Z97 model.

Thanks!  TBH, this rig would be fine if the PSU was higher power, even when it comes to noise, given when the stock fans are 30% or lower it is pretty darn quiet, and if you flip em then I think they move enough air to hit a steady state that is acceptable.  To get there though need to go with low heat configs like probably no 4790k vs using a 4690k (or turn off HT and underclock and undervolt the 4790k), combined with a good cooler like the thermalright AP100 or Zalman 8900 that blows down to cool MB components as well and you should have no issues with MB or CPU temps requiring the fans to spin any faster.  If going with a 780ti, no overclocking(and I mean over reference) and must have a good air cooler (NVidia stock blower probably OK as long as it isn't a 690 ), then it should be a pretty quiet rig even when gaming, etc.  What is killing me is running this G3258 OCed with the voltage I had to bump it to to get this high.  Lower and I was having issues with a couple of games where my GPU is held back by the CPU.  But... if I go 4690k, then for single core games I will lose out.  Basically, PSU is really the biggest and hardest to solve problem.  I would really *like* to WC this, not only to make it a bit quieter, but just because I have been a temp nazi for the last 20 years of custom building PCs, having my parts run any higher than 65-70 for CPU or 80-85 for GPU ever is very hard for me to accept, I just don't like it, 100C for the VRMs is too much for this type A guy .

 

 

I game with open headphones as well sometimes, but with what I have done to it so far, it is quiet enough that I cannot hear it 3 ft away with the headphones on (either Audeze LCD3s, Hifiman HE-500's, Oppo PM-1's, or Sennheiser 650s).

 

I wouldn't have gone this route on parts vs. say a 760 FTW or something but I am wanting to drive either the 34" 21:9 that Linus reviewed or *maybe* 4K if Windows 9 fixes issues (getting beta next week ).... so here I am .

[rodion.zissou]

Thanks! TBH, this rig would be fine if the PSU was higher power, even when it comes to noise, given when the stock fans are 30% or lower it is pretty darn quiet, and if you flip em then I think they move enough air to hit a steady state that is acceptable. To get there though need to go with low heat configs like probably no 4790k vs using a 4690k (or turn off HT and underclock and undervolt the 4790k), combined with a good cooler like the thermalright AP100 or Zalman 8900 that blows down to cool MB components as well and you should have no issues with MB or CPU temps requiring the fans to spin any faster. If going with a 780ti, no overclocking(and I mean over reference) and must have a good air cooler (NVidia stock blower probably OK as long as it isn't a 690 ), then it should be a pretty quiet rig even when gaming, etc. What is killing me is running this G3258 OCed with the voltage I had to bump it to to get this high. Lower and I was having issues with a couple of games where my GPU is held back by the CPU. But... if I go 4690k, then for single core games I will lose out. Basically, PSU is really the biggest and hardest to solve problem. I would really *like* to WC this, not only to make it a bit quieter, but just because I have been a temp nazi for the last 20 years of custom building PCs, having my parts run any higher than 65-70 for CPU or 80-85 for GPU ever is very hard for me to accept, I just don't like it, 100C for the VRMs is too much for this type A guy .

I game with open headphones as well sometimes, but with what I have done to it so far, it is quiet enough that I cannot hear it 3 ft away with the headphones on (either Audeze LCD3s, Hifiman HE-500's, Oppo PM-1's, or Sennheiser 650s).

I wouldn't have gone this route on parts vs. say a 760 FTW or something but I am wanting to drive either the 34" 21:9 that Linus reviewed or *maybe* 4K if Windows 9 fixes issues (getting beta next week ).... so here I am .

I'm not sure water cooling will lower the noise levels, but it should cool your components a little better. You said there is a block for the mobo and VRMs? Do you have a low profile cpu cooler? I've heard a noctua model will actually fit.

[craftyhack]

I'm not sure water cooling will lower the noise levels, but it should cool your components a little better. You said there is a block for the mobo and VRMs? Do you have a low profile cpu cooler? I've heard a noctua model will actually fit.

I have not been able to find anything about when the Z97 is releasing, for how much, or where .  If you find it please post as I am definitely interested, once I see that I will decide on my next move, for now the rig is OK.

 

Yeah, I was considering WCing basically because I was looking for lower temps with at least equivalent if not lower noise, but given my modding skills (and lack of cajones on cutting into this case given there are no spare parts available)... WCing this is a pipe dream.  I haven't found anything WC wise that is close to workable in this case anyway even if I *could* mod, perhaps it is a problem with lack of imagination or lack of knowledge about a tiny WC loop out there somewhere.

 

I think you are talking about the Noctua NH-L12, and without the top fan it would fit, but it would honestly not only injur the look through the window compared to the Zalman (IMO anyway), the Zalman's performance seems quite good normally, the biggest problem wouldn't be solved with the Noctua either... removing that hot air from the case so that ambient for the CPU cooler is low enough for it to remain effective.  I can tell this is the problem given CPU and GPU temps rise rather slowly compared to relatively instant feedback of a bad cooler which normally hits whatever threshold in a few minutes, and the difference relative to ambient is relatively high.  It CERTAINLY doesn't help that the design has the PSU dumping exhaust air into the case as well .  When I tried a negative pressure setup with all four fans exhausting, they didn't have enough static pressure to pull enough air in through the somewhat crappy passive ventilation holes that only exist in the back of the case (they look awesome atleast ) to remove hot air fast enough, and where bottom intake and top exhaust is better, still not great.

 

Here is the article on the ITX coolers where they talk about usage in the M8 a lot from Tom's that led me to choose the Zalman... the article should apply to the Z97 version as well I think:  http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/low-profile-heat-sink-mini-itx,3639.html.  It doesn't hurt that the Zalman was also 1/3rd of the price(I got the quiet version although I have the Extreme version on the way after finding one for $25 to see if it helps).  On a side note you have to pull the MB out of the Z97 to install the backplate for any of these coolers which is a real PITA, set aside a few hours for that, it is basically a complete disassembly.

 

There is a full board WB available for the ASUS Impact VI and there will be one for the Impact VII (whenever THAT comes out... patiently waiting ), but no WB that I know of for this board.  I am not even sure if the Impact VII will fit in this case given its riser cards (especially the VRM riser) and I would lose 2 SATA ports over the M8 board, but I am still considering it anyway because I really like the Asus boards.  In this case (no pun intended) the fan expert 3 fan control software will be very useful to manage the noise level of this case as while the ASRock fan software is OK, it completely sucks compared to asus fan control software, fan expert 3 is AWESOME.  Crazy reason to replace the MB perhaps, but there it is  .  The alternative is to get a good fan controller(or figure out how to make speedfan or some other software work based on temp sensors I have to install).  I still need to research my options there, maybe the new corsair link kit will do what I want, but for the cost of a fan controller than can do what I want and be small enough to install somewhere in this case, I would rather spend a bit more for the Impact VII ROG board if I decide against going with the Z97-M8. 

 

Back to WC, I invested too far into how to air cool this thing once I got the Matrix as it is performing very well (1250 sustained boost) and very quietly(especially relative to the 70mm fans in the case ) at good temps, so my remaining issues to solve are less challenging than WCing this rig would be.  I just have to do a bit of work to sort out the VRM temps on the Matrix which is pretty easy (and will be effective I hope).  I wouldn't use a WB on this Matrix anyway, my main purpose for getting this card was its awesome air cooler combined with the price mistake .  I am assuming this card would be an OC beast with WC given that is what it was built for(LN2 really), but I could probably get something that could perform the same for a lower price if I were to get a WB including the price of the WB, where the WB for my Matrix is another $150 from EK not including shipping, fittings, etc.  E.g. an eVGA with a flashed firmware.  Given most of the space in the case is taken up by the Matrix, if I don't WC it, then I don't really have space for WC options for the rest of the parts even if there was an itty bitty setup available, as I figure that the GPU bay is where the rad would have to go (and even then the orientation would suck).

 

Basically, 1.0 of the M8 is not great for TOTL parts if you care about noise, but I think it is great if lower tier parts are used, so for a 1080p gamer it is a fine case with only a few easy changes with say a 770 and a 4690k or perhaps one of the low TDP devils canyon CPUs.  With top tier parts, this bronze PSU dumps too much heat in the case and is under powered, where with the 600W gold PSU, you should be golden even with your TOTL parts.  Assuming each part is right on spec and you are pulling 450W-500W from the wall while gaming, the jump from bronze to gold is 22.5W-25W less heat being dumped in the case which I think is a pretty significant difference over time given the case's *relatively* poor ventilation.

 

Here are a few nicely overexposed with crappy white balance pics (from my HTC One, good low light camera my arse) to show some of the things I am talking about:

 

M8 Back IO.jpg=showing the rather torturous and inefficient passive ventilation relative to the space consumed.  When I take it apart I will see about opening it up some more since the inner steel part reduces airflow for no benefit that I can see... just like the lower inner grills I already ripped out which made a huge difference.

 

M8 Inside.jpg=showing the size of the Zalman, imagine how the Noctua would change the aesthetic.  That is pretty subjective obviously, perhaps you would prefer the look, I dunno.  Also, the PSU cables really need resheathing, but I am not going to bother until I figure out which way I am going on this rig.  IMO they should have done individually sleeved cables(black, or or black and red even) or something considering the importance of aesthetic with this case, a pretty big miss IMO, for the MSRP and given the point of this case... not acceptable .

 

M8 GPU.jpg=trying to show on the top how the Matrix prevents the use of fans thicker than 10mm on the top of the case, unfortunate as I think the Matrix is probably the best 780Ti for this case considering its boost relative to its air-cooling performance, the 25mm thick fans were pretty good at drawing air from the lower chamber better .  The green arrow shows where the 10mm fan stops, and the red arrow shows where the edge of the Matrix is at it's widest point.  It is probably the widest 780Ti out there though, so for yours you should be able to put something like these 70mmx25mm Evercools in, assuming your 780ti is 282mm or less wide.  I had these Evercool's installed and while they are much quieter than the stock 10mm fans, they still had to ramp up pretty high to cool the 690 enough to avoid throttling.  If I hadn't gotten the Matrix so cheap(relatively speaking ) these Evercools plus a decent 780Ti would have been my solution and probably a great combo for this case to maintain a certain level of cooling while being quieter.  They are almost triple the CFM and SP of the stock fans at their highest setting.  I could not find a fan flow curve for them, the stock fans in this case, or any of the other fans I have tried and listed above, so my evidence is anecdotal.  I can tell you that I am pretty sure that the fan flow curve assuredly is terrible for the stock fans and the replacement 10mm thick fans I tried as the flow difference from removing the rather porous metal grills that are installed in the bottom of this case was increased DRAMATICALLY.  http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=37923.  P.S. you can see the memory defroster for the Matrix on the bottom corner of the pic... totally useless here, this card is kinda dumb in this case, but they don't make a card without all of these LN2 features with an air cooler this good (that is only 2 slot) that I know of so oh well .

 

M8 Window.jpg=Showing what it looks like with the Zalman, I think the Noctua would ruin the look, just IMO.  Also you can barely see it but the unsleeved mutli color PSU 24 pin connector is very obvious, and there is nothing I can do about it with routing alone given the routing alone .

 

M8 ROG.jpg=SHowing the Matrix ROG GPU load indicator peeking through the top of the case.  This is actually a pretty neat feature as I am often curious how hard a game is pushing my GPU while playing, now with a glance I can at least get an idea.  Blue=idle->Orange=doing fine->Red=You're killing me!

 

EDIT:  no way to add additional fans in the front that I can see.  Also, for the kit guru review, he was talking about remounting the stock PSU is a PITA, not replacing the PSU with a different model.  I will say that the first time or two putting the PSU was a PITA, but now I can take out the stock PSU and reinstall it no problem, just takes practice!  As far as the 980 or even 970 GTX, agreed that the rumored reduced TDP for these cards will be awesome for this case IMO.  I am looking forward to seeing how this release goes, but if the rumors are true, then I think a lot of mITX gamers are gonna be real happy with these new NVidia cards.

[rodion.zissou]

zap

 

Nice, it sounds like you're a pro at un/rebuilding that case by now. It looks so nice, even on your phone cam. I can see why there are such constraints on the fan thickness, it's obviously going for most performance/compactness. But, I wish they'd have left out the, grills and other useless shrapnel that you mentioned, impeding airflow. I'll PM you if I see a release for the z97 version. It seems like you can get rid of a lot of heat if you were able to get a better psu. Also, I bet a good fix would be to cut into the acrylic window. How big is the large facet (the flat part) on the window? Could you mount a 140mm? A quiet one? Red LEDs? You might be able to make that look good, with some careful modding.

[craftyhack]

Nice, it sounds like you're a pro at un/rebuilding that case by now. It looks so nice, even on your phone cam. I can see why there are such constraints on the fan thickness, it's obviously going for most performance/compactness. But, I wish they'd have left out the, grills and other useless shrapnel that you mentioned, impeding airflow. I'll PM you if I see a release for the z97 version. It seems like you can get rid of a lot of heat if you were able to get a better psu. Also, I bet a good fix would be to cut into the acrylic window. How big is the large facet (the flat part) on the window? Could you mount a 140mm? A quiet one? Red LEDs? You might be able to make that look good, with some careful modding.

Yep, the acrylic window is the best place I think too.  I have pleaded ASRock for another side panel (just in case), they can't do it.  I also looked at trying to remove the acrylic panel that is in there, then buying some acrylic to replace it with so I can experiment and have more than one chance.  The acrylic that is in there is textured in a way that I don't think can be replaced other than OEM.  But, it is slotted in a frame that is in turn glued to the aluminum, and it is adhered pretty solid.  The plastic frame doesn't look like it would survive being pried off .  Trying to cut into the current window... an 80mm fan is about what would fit without cutting into the Octogon patterns.  If I did cut into them then ya, a 140 would fit, but I can't think of how to do it without ruining the look of the case.  If I am going to ruin the look anyway, I would rather go with an N1 or similar that is functionally a better design for cooling, etc.  I am still thinking about how to do it and checking out the build threads for ideas...

 

Don't need any LEDs, the pictures are bad at showing it, but there are two led strips that are part of the case, and it is lit up pretty well when I have them on (done through A Command, kind of a PITA actually vs. a rocker, but whatever ).

[rodion.zissou]

@craftyhack

The lian N1? That thing looks waaaay small. Here's a video for installing a window. Since the hole for it is already there installing the right size piece of acrylic with a 140mm whole for fan would be easy. Also check out the nice rubber grommet he installs to make it look clean. You might be able to do that round the fan hole.

[craftyhack]

@craftyhack

The lian N1? That thing looks waaaay small. Here's a video for installing a window. Since the hole for it is already there installing the right size piece of acrylic with a 140mm whole for fan would be easy. Also check out the nice rubber grommet he installs to make it look clean. You might be able to do that round the fan hole.

Sorry, I meant the NCase M1, fairly boring but very classy and definitely can do a lot with it given the size.  Thanks for the vid, I have most of the tools too... I just need the guts to try and pry off the frame that holds the current window in place.  It is running pretty good right now since replacing the 690 though even with just a G3258, so I think I will wait for the Z97-M8 to see pricing and availability before I take an irreversible step with this one though, in case I have to resell it.  If not, then I will work on a replacement window... there are some nice 120/140mm fan bezels that are red annodized aluminum, black aluminum, etc. that I think would go well in plexi for a replacement window.  I may not even need a fan, I can just make it negative pressure again and this will be where all of the coll air will come in the case.