Help with some old house electrical problems

[scaryjam823]

In my great grandparents house there is some electrical issues I cannot seem to figure out, the house was built in the 40's and doesn't operate off of circuit breakers. It uses the old fuse style (forgot the real name) One day my mom was using a curling iron and the power went out. Ever since there has been no power in certain areas, they checked all the fuses and none were bad, before this there were no problems. Now I know for the most part how to wire a house, the problem is I cannot see any logical way this house was wired to figure the problem out. Assuming fuses are eliminated out of the problem I jumped to two things, one being an animal ate through a wire. However it seems odd for that to be the cause at the same time she plugged something in. The other is an outlet went bad, the problem there is it wouldn't make sense the way I know how to wire a house for that to the be problem because of the way power is out. Below is a rough picture of the house with labels to show where the problems are.

 

 

She was in bedroom 2 at the time. She plugged her curling iron into outlet 5. Power went out, when they replaced the fuse power was out on the following outlets, outlet 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15. To add to the confusion it killed power to the entire bedroom 3, no power to the fans or lights in that room and the hood for the range stopped working. The fuse panel is located in the laundry room. Outlets 7, 8, 12, 11, 2 all work fine.

 

I don't have a whole lot of knowledge as to how old houses could've been wired so I was hoping someone could give me insight. I know an outlet could've went bad causing the problem (had it happen before) but I don't understand why if that was true why bedroom 3 would've been wired to the outlets and had half the bedroom 1 to the same outlets.

 

I took a look in the attic and didn't see any noticeable damage to any wires so I'm sure the problem lies elsewhere. All the other outlets in the house still work, bedroom 2 is on the same fuse box as the living room and kitchen. I should also mention this house wasn't built by professionals, it was built by an individual so there's no telling how it was wired. However I'm going to assume whatever was popular for the times is at least somewhat the method used to wire the house.

 

I'm just hoping someone can give me some clues as to where to start looking for the problem. I will be testing the last working outlet next to the non working outlet in every room shortly, but I still cannot seem to understand how bedroom 3 could've been effected the way it was by all of this.

 

Any help or guidance is greatly appreciated.

[Puppet]

Not sure on this either considering the age of the house, but even then lights and sockets should be on separate circuits.

 

So it's either a problem with your distribution box or the wiring....

 

My recommendation- call in a professional spark to look at it. Be careful when taking advice from people on forums about this kind of stuff, it can literally be life or death.

[GzeroD]

Some clue as too where your fuse box and service entrance is would be helpful if you want ideas.

 

Also Is there a crawl space.

[Art Vandelay]

If a wire inside the house is damaged, you should call an electrician and not fix it yourself. Even if you can do this yourself, safely, without a license, it's not good for your home insurance.

[GzeroD]

If a wire inside the house is damaged, you should call an electrician and not fix it yourself. Even if you can do this yourself, safely, without a license, it's not good for your home insurance.

He is in the USA if one of the service wires outside is damaged it is actually illegal for him to work on it. also if it is a hazard it is illegal for your utility to not fix it (or at least make it safe) after you tell them about it.

 

also if about (could be more or less in a house that old) 1/2 of the house does not have power one of the service hot lines could be corroded, it the corrosion is bad enough then 1/2 of your service wont have power.  If this is the problem call an electritian, it needs to be diagnosed live and the electrician will get authorization from your local utility to remove your meter to make the repair as long as the break is after the repair.

[scaryjam823]

Not sure on this either considering the age of the house, but even then lights and sockets should be on separate circuits.

 

So it's either a problem with your distribution box or the wiring....

 

My recommendation- call in a professional spark to look at it. Be careful when taking advice from people on forums about this kind of stuff, it can literally be life or death.

That's what I was confused about, if they were wired anywhere close to how it should be the ceiling lights and sockets should be on different wires. Meaning one shouldn't cause the other to stop working. So I have no idea. Believe me I wouldn't try anything anyone says on here without killing power to the house and making sure it made sense/ doing further research before attemping it. If I had the money to call someone I would, I'm capable of fixing it myself if it is a minor problem, even if it isn't it doesn't hurt to try and find the problem as well as learn about it for future knowledge.

 

Some clue as too where your fuse box and service entrance is would be helpful if you want ideas.

 

Also Is there a crawl space.

In the post I said in the laundry room, there is a crawl space but the wiring is in the attic and the walls, nothing can be done under the house.

 

@Art Vandelay

 If money wasn't an issue someone who could actually fix the problem would be here. The problem is that the whole house needs to be rewired and have a 200amp fuse box put in with circuit breakers to get rid of this old 100amp fuse system. That isn't cheap.

[GzeroD]

do you know how to check to see if there is power at the fuse panned ? if you do you can check to see if the problem is there of further into your system.

[Art Vandelay]

@Art Vandelay

 If money wasn't an issue someone who could actually fix the problem would be here. The problem is that the whole house needs to be rewired and have a 200amp fuse box put in with circuit breakers to get rid of this old 100amp fuse system. That isn't cheap.

I'm just saying, if the shit ever hits the fan and you need your home insurance, unlicensed electrical work could be a problem. Whatever happens, don't tell the insurance company (don't lie though).

[GzeroD]

I'm just saying, if the shit ever hits the fan and you need your home insurance, unlicensed electrical work could be a problem. Whatever happens, don't tell the insurance company (don't lie though).

It would only be a problem if there was a fire or electrical fault. I have done electrical work in most of the housed I have lived in ( went to a vocational school for it but didn't follow up) and never had trouble with a claim. THen again it is legal to do that work in your own home here but in his area it may not be depends on his AHJ. (Authority Having Jurisdiction) 

 

 

Edit:

What kind of wiring is in use there? is it romex, flex multi conductor cable, ect.

also are most of the outlets 2 or 3 prong, if 3 prong, the house has probably been rewired before. 

[scaryjam823]

@GzeroD

They are 2 prong outlets facing horizontally, as far as the type of wiring I am not sure. I didn't inspect the wiring with that much detail (and it was about 3 weeks ago I looked), just mainly looked for some obvious problems. I'll have to get up there and take a look again later this week.

[GzeroD]

You said you know for the most part that you know how to wire a house. What kind of experience working with it do you have, I don't want to give you advice that leads to you getting yourself hurt.

[Puppet]

 

That's what I was confused about, if they were wired anywhere close to how it should be the ceiling lights and sockets should be on different wires. Meaning one shouldn't cause the other to stop working. So I have no idea. Believe me I wouldn't try anything anyone says on here without killing power to the house and making sure it made sense/ doing further research before attemping it. If I had the money to call someone I would, I'm capable of fixing it myself if it is a minor problem, even if it isn't it doesn't hurt to try and find the problem as well as learn about it for future knowledge.

 

Unfortunately I don't think it's going to be anything simple. If the wiring is as old as the house then that's more than likely the problem. Aside from checking the fuses and maybe some continuity tests there isn't really much you can do without tearing down walls and the conclusion is probably going to be a full rewire considering what has happened.

 

There's no cheap option for electrics in a house, you just have to go the proper way around. Have you got insurance? I'm guessing it's a no, but if you do, don't attempt anything as it might invalidate it and you should report it asap.

 

Anyways best to start off with an inspection, it shouldn't cost too much and at least you know where you stand. Worst case scenario is that you have to take a loan out.

[scaryjam823]

You said you know for the most part that you know how to wire a house. What kind of experience working with it do you have, I don't want to give you advice that leads to you getting yourself hurt.

I've worked in construction for the past 5 years. Roofing, framing a house,minor electrical ( running wires through studs), I have some experience outside of my work life with it as well, wiring lights, ceiling fans, replacing outlets etc.. Like I said above I'm not about to just try something someone random says on the internet or something I don't feel comfortable with. I take the advice given, think on it. Do some research and if it makes sense I will try it IF I am comfortable with the procedure. If I am not I wont even attempt it, I don't mess around with electricity. If you give me advice that I am not comfortable with I wont even try it, I'm not stupid and I have seen over the past several years what carelessness can lead to on the work site.

 

Unfortunately I don't think it's going to be anything simple. If the wiring is as old as the house then that's more than likely the problem. Aside from checking the fuses and maybe some continuity tests there isn't really much you can do without tearing down walls and the conclusion is probably going to be a full rewire considering what has happened.

 

There's no cheap option for electrics in a house, you just have to go the proper way around. Have you got insurance? I'm guessing it's a no, but if you do, don't attempt anything as it might invalidate it and you should report it asap.

 

Anyways best to start off with an inspection, it shouldn't cost too much and at least you know where you stand. Worst case scenario is that you have to take a loan out.

That's pretty much the conclusion I have, yes there is insurance on the home. But where I live isn't that strict, most homes were built by homeowners with very little knowledge (at least most of the older homes). They're still insured, we are allowed to do any kind of work we want. Now if some of the work we done causes the house to burn down for example and they can prove it was that particular work then it's bad. But they don't come and do any inspections of the home, just generally aren't that strict.

[GzeroD]

How many branch circuit fuses are in the box for the house (the small screw in ones not the larger block one(s))?

[scaryjam823]

How many branch circuit fuses are in the box for the house (the small screw in ones not the larger block one(s))?

There are 16 buss fuses in the panel, below is a picture of the panel. It was never labeled so the only way to find what fuses go to what are by taking them out and seeing what going out.

(no idea why my note 3 took such a crappy picture )

[GzeroD]

have you checked the fuses under the block disconnects (they pull out and have cartridge fuses in them)

[scaryjam823]

have you checked the fuses under the block disconnects (they pull out and have cartridge fuses in them)

Yes, there are some spares that we have that are good. Pulled every cartridge fuse out one by one and replaced it with the known good one. No change. We also checked evert buss fuse, none looked blown and we still tried swapping them with a known good fuse with no change.

[GzeroD]

I assume you already checked for corrosion in the buss fuse sockets and Cartridge fuse holders.

 

next I would ask you to take off the panel cover and check for corrosion in the panel, on aluminum wires it will be white and dull, and on copper it will be green.

If you see something that you want to tighten or check, remove the Main block and the rest of the panel should be dead except for the 2 conductors feeding the main (always test with a multimeter before touching anything in a panel)

[scaryjam823]

I assume you already checked for corrosion in the buss fuse sockets and Cartridge fuse holders.

 

next I would ask you to take off the panel cover and check for corrosion in the panel, on aluminum wires it will be white and dull, and on copper it will be green.

If you see something that you want to tighten or check, remove the Main block and the rest of the panel should be dead except for the 2 conductors feeding the main (always test with a multimeter before touching anything in a panel)

I just now got some time to mess around with it. I didn't pull the cover off, it's just something I don't feel comfortable with without someone with more knowledge there with me. While I know what to do to be safe, I'd rather have someone with more experience to help guide me. I did try some things however. First I found a known good buss fuse, the one that controlled the laundry room power. I used that fuse as my test, I swapped every fuse out with the known good fuse and nothing changed. I done a visual inspection on top of that to ensure none blew and they did not. The way the house is wired all the buss fuses control the rooms, found out from trial and error. However every fuse I pulled killed something in the house and when I swapped it not only was powered restored to where it killed power, it also didn't fix any of the power outage. Which leads me to believe there was more rooms than available circuits, at some point they started grouping two rooms together. There are more rooms to power than available buss fuses.

 

So my next thought was the buss fuses didn't change anything, so I tried the cartridge fuses. There was about 10 spare 60 amp fuses in the closest, I tried every combination possible to see if one was bad. All of them seemed to be good as power was restored everywhere after each fuse was tested. My next thought was the main fuses, had two of those spare. I swapped them out in every combination possible and still didn't fix the problem and power was going to everywhere else in the house.

 

After the fuse thing didn't work out I jumped to wiring, they wired the lights and the outlets on the same circuit. Now from experience I know an outlet can go bad and kill power to all the outlets after that. I got a new outlet, replaced the last working outlet in both rooms and still no power. I then tried replacing the first non-working outlet with the new one. Still no power. To top that off they stuff the outlet box full and I mean packed full of insulation. It's a wonder the house is still standing, I got that taken care of now.

 

The only other thing I know left to do is buy a multimeter and see if any power is getting to the outlet or the wires. I'm pretty much down to it's a wire that came loose somewhere. I'm making the assumption there is what should be a junction box in the attic or wall (though it's more than  likely just a mess of wires tied together as old as this house is) and the wires were coming loose. Either from age and the house settling, a bad connection to start, or possibly an animal chewed on it. Then when she gave a good amount of power through the wire it arched at the loose connection, separate the wires and now that's why there is no power.

 

I can do the final testing with the multimeter when I buy one, until then a guy who helped wire the house is going to come by and take a look. He'll know more about how they did it than I do, hopefully he can find the problem. If not then I guess the search will continue.

[GzeroD]

After the fuse thing didn't work out I jumped to wiring, they wired the lights and the outlets on the same circuit. Now from experience I know an outlet can go bad and kill power to all the outlets after that. I got a new outlet, replaced the last working outlet in both rooms and still no power. I then tried replacing the first non-working outlet with the new one. Still no power. To top that off they stuff the outlet box full and I mean packed full of insulation. It's a wonder the house is still standing, I got that taken care of now.

 

 

You should also try the last good outlet there could be an issue where only half the outlet is actually receiving power and the rest of the chain is connected to the other half.

[scaryjam823]

You should also try the last good outlet there could be an issue where only half the outlet is actually receiving power and the rest of the chain is connected to the other half.

Sorry if I wasn't clear I checked both the last working outlet and the first non-working outlet with a good one with no change to the problem. I've had an outlet go bad before where it killed power to everything in series with it. Thought it was my refrigerator that went bad, spent $1000 on a new one and it still didn't work. After an hour and a half troubleshooting I finally found out the last working outlet was the problem. The half giving power to the next outlet went bad, trust me something I will never forget lol.

 

The only possible thing I can think of, as I said before, there's a junction somewhere where some wires came loose. I've eliminated all other points of failure except the fuse box itself and I somewhat ruled that out by having ever buss fuse and cartridge fuse kill power to something when I removed them.

[GzeroD]

 

The only possible thing I can think of, as I said before, there's a junction somewhere where some wires came loose. I've eliminated all other points of failure except the fuse box itself and I somewhat ruled that out by having ever buss fuse and cartridge fuse kill power to something when I removed them.

 

 

That sounds about right, you might also want to get one of the little "wand or pen type voltage detectors. some thing like http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-Volt-Sensor-Non-Contact-Voltage-Tester-61-063/203761583#product_description

 

a multimeter will not show voltage on an ungrounded circuit if the neutral is broken, but there will still be power on the hot (energy carrying) side of the circuit. a voltage detecting pen will indicate voltage even if there is no neutral or ground at the outlet.

[scaryjam823]

That sounds about right, you might also want to get one of the little "wand or pen type voltage detectors. some thing like http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-Volt-Sensor-Non-Contact-Voltage-Tester-61-063/203761583#product_description

 

a multimeter will not show voltage on an ungrounded circuit if the neutral is broken, but there will still be power on the hot (energy carrying) side of the circuit. a voltage detecting pen will indicate voltage even if there is no neutral or ground at the outlet.

Yup, the multimeter kit I looked at came with a pen for live wires, an outlet tester and the multimeter unit itself.  Whichever comes first, the guy coming to look at it or when I get the money for the kit I'll do some more work on it trying to figure out the problem. I'll let you know what I figure out as soon as I know something. I appreciate your help thus far.

[scaryjam823]

That sounds about right, you might also want to get one of the little "wand or pen type voltage detectors. some thing like http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-Volt-Sensor-Non-Contact-Voltage-Tester-61-063/203761583#product_description

 

a multimeter will not show voltage on an ungrounded circuit if the neutral is broken, but there will still be power on the hot (energy carrying) side of the circuit. a voltage detecting pen will indicate voltage even if there is no neutral or ground at the outlet.

I went and bought the multimeter combo kit today. I first used the pen and it came on indicating there was voltage. I plugged a lamp into the socket and followed the wire with the pen, voltage all the way through but lamp didn't work. I used the outlet tester and it didn't register anything so I know there's not much voltage but the wire is live. So I went to test the outlet with the multimeter, set it to ac voltage, put the prongs into the outlet and had a 0 reading. I touched the ground to the ground in the outlet, then touched the hot from the multimeter to the live wire and still had no voltage after I checked the outlet. I then touched the hot wire to the ground wire bypassing the outlet and it read .3 volts. So it's getting power, just not enough to power anything. I tried all the non working outlets and it was the same. I'm at a loss and have no idea what to try next.