SSD Fragmentation :/

[hojnikb]

No it's not. In fact, a lot of the time, even a fresh install will not always detect SSDs that support it, depending on the ssd and the chipset.

I'd say out of all of the SSDs I've installed, that happens about a third of the time. If I imaged it,  it's 100% of the time disabled. In fact the only reason that trim is enabled sometimes after imaging is some imaging software does this in addition to properly aligning the partitions. 

Its always good to check.  

Of course it is only supported for sata devices in windows, so I'm not counting PCIe ssds in that. 

 

Well i can tell you, that i've installed many ssds (both fresh installs and restored) and i've NEVER EVER had issues with trim not working. In fact, i always check if trim is working with a simple app called "trimcheck" which actually test if trim is working (that windows command really isn't a good indicator of trim status at all). So yeah..

[hojnikb]

Of course it is only supported for sata devices in windows, so I'm not counting PCIe ssds in that.

 

 

pci-e support TRIM just aswell

[Syntaxvgm]

No, this is not correct. Trim and garbage collection are two completly separate things, but the DO work in conjunction.

 

Trim is a simple command, that windows sends to ssd when you delete something; because ssds are not filesystem aware, they dont really know when you delete something, unless some new data hits the same location as the deleted data. Here trim comes into play, as it tells the ssd immediatly, that you deleted something and can treat that data as invalid, thus using that space as free (this has several benefits, such as better write speeds over time, lower write amplification).

 

Garbage on the other hand is an internal mechanisem, that manages the data and keeps the ssd tidy.  Since flash works quite differently that harddrives (for example data cant be overwritten) a mechanisem like GC is required. It erases the blocks when needed (this can only happen at page level) and copies the data in the pages somewhere else if necessery. Here TRIM comes into play, since it decreases the number of blocks, that ssd needs to drag around, because it is only moving valid data (and no more user deleted data, that ssd isn't yet aware, that is invalid).

 

A more in depth read can be found here http://www.thessdreview.com/daily-news/latest-buzz/garbage-collection-and-trim-in-ssds-explained-an-ssd-primer/

You apparently don't now what garbage collection is. Even wikipedia backs me up

But many don't like that as a source. Traditional SSD garbage collection is the method, garbage collection is the goal. 

Garbage collection is not a term that refers to drives. 

Trim handles garbage collection overhead. SSD garbage collection is just a method of garbage collection for SSDs. 

You are obviously not a programmer. 

[Syntaxvgm]

pci-e support TRIM just aswell

nope. While the hardware supports it, windows does not. 

http://techreport.com/review/22663/ocz-revodrive-3-x2-240gb-solid-state-drive

I have personally tried this as well. 

[Syntaxvgm]

Well i can tell you, that i've installed many ssds (both fresh installs and restored) and i've NEVER EVER had issues with trim not working. In fact, i always check if trim is working with a simple app called "trimcheck" which actually test if trim is working (that windows command really isn't a good indicator of trim status at all). So yeah..

that combined with your pcie comment makes me want facepalm. 

[hojnikb]

that combined with your pcie comment makes me want facepalm. 

 

All of your comments makes me wanna shoot a kitten :blink:

[Syntaxvgm]

All of your comments makes me wanna shoot a kitten :blink:

Well at least this kitten is right. 

Today.

Yesterday I was totally, shamefully wrong about DACs. I'm not in expert in everything. 

[hojnikb]

nope. While the hardware supports it, windows does not. 

http://techreport.com/review/22663/ocz-revodrive-3-x2-240gb-solid-state-drive

I have personally tried this as well. 

from windows 8 onwards trim is also supported on pcie drives.

 

Windows 8's Storport driver is expected to add an extension that supports TRIM, though.

 

[hojnikb]

Well at least this kitten is right. 

Today.

Yesterday I was totally, shamefully wrong about DACs. I'm not in expert in everything. 

But im afraid you're not. Atleast i've got links to backup my statement, while you have absolutly nothing.

[hojnikb]

You apparently don't now what garbage collection is. Even wikipedia backs me up

But many don't like that as a source. Traditional SSD garbage collection is the method, garbage collection is the goal. 

Garbage collection is not a term that refers to drives.

 

Ofcourse i know. Because unlike you, i've actually understand the difference between ssds GC and memory GC. Two different things

 

Trim handles garbage collection overhead.

 

No it doesnt. It only does EXACTLY what i've stated above.

[Syntaxvgm]

from windows 8 onwards trim is also supported on pcie drives.

Now that I have not heard of at all. I've not worked with 8 way too much. I'm interested. A link? 

 

But im afraid you're not. Atleast i've got links to backup my statement, while you have absolutly nothing.

Go look up garage collection and come back to me. 

[Syntaxvgm]

Ofcourse i know. Because unlike you, i've actually understand the difference between ssds GC and memory GC. Two different things

 

 

No it doesnt. It only does EXACTLY what i've stated above.

memory garbage collection is another type of garbage collection. 

Garbage collection is a general term. 

I think this is where we are not aligning. 

[Syntaxvgm]

Ofcourse i know. Because unlike you, i've actually understand the difference between ssds GC and memory GC. Two different things

 

 

No it doesnt. It only does EXACTLY what i've stated above.

Forgive me for using wikipedia for a source, I'll find you a better one in minute. 

 

 

Trim was introduced soon after SSDs started to become an affordable alternative to traditional hard disks. Because low-level operation of SSDs differs significantly from hard drives, the typical way in which operating systems handle operations like deletes and formats resulted in unanticipated progressive performance degradation of write operations on SSDs.^[2] Trimming enables the SSD to handle garbage collection overhead, which would otherwise significantly slow down future write operations to the involved blocks, in advance.^[3]

[hojnikb]

memory garbage collection is another type of garbage collection. 

Garbage collection is a general term. 

I think this is where we are not aligning. 

 

Yeah its a general term, but if we're discussing in a ssd thread than its obvious, we're not talking about any other type of GC

[Syntaxvgm]

Yeah its a general term, but if we're discussing in a ssd thread than its obvious, we're not talking about any other type of GC

SSD garbage collection IS a type of garbage collection. Trim is a way to handle GC overhead, and thus manages garbage collection, therefore is in that category of garbage collection. 

this can be quite confusing. 

[hojnikb]

Trimming enables the SSD to handle garbage collection overhead, which would otherwise significantly slow down future write operations to the involved blocks, in advance.^[3]

 

 

This is a very clunky way to put TRIM operation. What it really does, it tells the ssds that deleted data is invalid and its time to treat those user deleted blocks as empty. So in a way, it decreases write aplification and wear. But it most certanly wont handle anything, since ssds came way before trim and they worked just fine and had garbage collection just aswell (just not as efficent as it is now with trim).

[hojnikb]

SSD garbage collection IS a type of garbage collection. Trim is a way to handle GC overhead, and thus manages garbage collection, therefore is in that category of garbage collection. 

this can be quite confusing. 

 

Trim is not a way to handle overhead, its only a command that consequently reduces overhead (due to less blocks needed to be moved around).

[Syntaxvgm]

This is a very clunky way to put TRIM operation. What it really does, it tells the ssds that deleted data is invalid and its time to treat those user deleted blocks as empty. So in a way, it decreases write aplification and wear. But it most certanly wont handle anything, since ssds came way before trim and they worked just fine and had garbage collection just aswell (just not as efficent as it is now with trim).

so here's where I may be categorizing it wrong:

Since trim assists garbage collection and makes it more efficient., I consider it part of the GC process. 

[hojnikb]

Since trim assists garbage collection and makes it more efficient., I consider it part of the GC process.

 

 

Yeah, one could say TRIM is a part of GC (since GC processes trim commands).

[hojnikb]

Although TRIM can get quite tricky, when dealing with sandforce drives.

In my eyes its really broken on those drives, because even though its working just fine when tested, it fails to keep consistent write speeds (which trim is really all about) on all of my 3 sandforce based drives.

[Syntaxvgm]

Although TRIM can get quite tricky, when dealing with sandforce drives.

In my eyes its really broken on those drives, because even though its working just fine when tested, it fails to keep consistent write speeds (which trim is really all about) on all of my 3 sandforce based drives.

That's one of the reason I avoid most of ADATA and PNY if i can. I really only buy Samsung for myself. 

[deviant88]

If you are using windows 8.1 with the built in Defrag tool you cant defragment an SSD only trimming when you click optimize,you can only defragment with a 3rd party software you can find on google,but you should never defragment an SSD only trimming.

End of story.

[hojnikb]

That's one of the reason I avoid most of ADATA and PNY if i can. I really only buy Samsung for myself. 

Thats not really PNYs and ADATAs fault, since ALL sandforce (yes, even mighty Intel) have the same issues.

[Syntaxvgm]

Thats not really PNYs and ADATAs fault, since ALL sandforce (yes, even mighty Intel) have the same issues.

Yah, you are right. I don't hate the brand because of it. I just avoid them becsause of sandforce. Kingston uses them too, right?

I mean I would for cheaper, slower SSDs where that wouldn't matter and I wanna throw it in a laptop or something.

[hojnikb]

Yah, you are right. I don't hate the brand because of it. I just avoid them becsause of sandforce. Kingston uses them too, right?

I mean I would for cheaper, slower SSDs where that wouldn't matter and I wanna throw it in a laptop or something.

 

There are over 50 manufactures, that use sandforce and yes, kingston is one of them. But they are the worst, since some time ago, they silently switched Sync nand to Async nand without any announcment.