Windows...yeesh.

[digitalscream]

OK, full disclosure - I've been a Linux guy for the best part of the last 20 years or so (yeah, I got started when it was...there's no gentle way to put it...bloody awful as a desktop experience).

 

I've recently been bitten by the sim-racing bug, so I got a decent T300 RS wheel and got Assetto Corsa running on my main Linux desktop. Seemed to be fine just for a lap here and there while I was testing, using Steam, but today I reserved some time to play properly and...it'd crash after five or six laps. Not ideal, especially when I'm still trying to get the hang of the controls.

 

Decided to chuck together a gaming PC, so I raided my AI server for parts and put together an i5-12400F / 7800 XT rig, with the idea of putting Windows on it. 128GB RAM, 500GB NVMe drive (WD, I think).

 

Now, that machine's not exactly the fastest thing out there, but it's no slouch either. However, the whole thing just felt...wrong. I figured it was something I'd done wrong, so I booted up a Ubuntu USB disk and...snappy as you like.

 

The problem's Windows, on the same hardware. How on earth do you Windows folk live with it? It's horrendous, there's just this overall feeling of lag doing absolutely anything on it.

 

I'm trying to get past my own feeling of ick at the user interface (I fully acknowledge that's my problem), but...has anybody else had this experience? Is there anything I can do do make it less...annoying? I mean, I don't think I really need do, since the only thing the Windows interface is going to be used for is launching Steam, but it'd be nice to avoid that momentary "ugh"

[Needfuldoer]

1 minute ago, digitalscream said:

(yeah, I got started when it was...there's no gentle way to put it...bloody awful as a desktop experience).

So, 1993 to present?  

 

2 minutes ago, digitalscream said:

Now, that machine's not exactly the fastest thing out there, but it's no slouch either. However, the whole thing just felt...wrong. I figured it was something I'd done wrong, so I booted up a Ubuntu USB disk and...snappy as you like.

 

The problem's Windows, on the same hardware. How on earth do you Windows folk live with it? It's horrendous, there's just this overall feeling of lag doing absolutely anything on it.

Did you install all the device-specific drivers for your PC, or were you just rolling with the generic ones? That can significantly impact performance, especially if the graphics driver is missing.

[digitalscream]

23 minutes ago, Needfuldoer said:

So, 1993 to present?  

 

Did you install all the device-specific drivers for your PC, or were you just rolling with the generic ones? That can significantly impact performance, especially if the graphics driver is missing.

Yep, installed everything - chipset, Intel stuff, audio stuff, AMD GPU drivers etc.

[digitalscream]

OK, so I'm a bit of a dumbass - I'm using a spare TV as the monitor, and it wasn't in game mode. Switched that on (after disabling the indexing, I'd forgotten about that), and it's partially solved the problem; it still feels slightly laggy, but it's usable now.

 

So...partial apologies to Microsoft, I guess?

 

Also, when did Microsoft break the start menu? I've obviously been out of the loop for far too long here. I mean...I installed the T300 drivers, and then searching for "Thrustmaster" in the start menu brings up ads for joysticks and autocomplete options for searching Bing instead of the menu folder actually called "Thrustmaster". FFS.

[gentlemanspot]

13 hours ago, digitalscream said:

Also, when did Microsoft break the start menu? I've obviously been out of the loop for far too long here. I mean...I installed the T300 drivers, and then searching for "Thrustmaster" in the start menu brings up ads for joysticks and autocomplete options for searching Bing instead of the menu folder actually called "Thrustmaster". FFS.

What do you mean you didn't what to bing?  ... try a little regedit 

 

1. Open Registry Editor.
2. Navigate to HKEY_CURRENT_USERSoftwarePoliciesMicrosoftWindowsExplorer.
3. Create a new DWORD (32-bit) Value.
4. Name it DisableSearchBoxSuggestions.
5. Set the value to 1.

[Mark Kaine]

13 hours ago, digitalscream said:

OK, so I'm a bit of a dumbass - I'm using a spare TV as the monitor, and it wasn't in game mode. Switched that on (after disabling the indexing, I'd forgotten about that), and it's partially solved the problem; it still feels slightly laggy, but it's usable now.

 

So...partial apologies to Microsoft, I guess?

 

Also, when did Microsoft break the start menu? I've obviously been out of the loop for far too long here. I mean...I installed the T300 drivers, and then searching for "Thrustmaster" in the start menu brings up ads for joysticks and autocomplete options for searching Bing instead of the menu folder actually called "Thrustmaster". FFS.

i honestly haven't seen adds in windows ever (if we exclude "edge", which we definitely should lol)... and that's even with vanilla windows...   don't get me wrong my windows is still vanilla, i just turned off updates because, yes, indeed,  a guy called "waasmedic" will show up constantly otherwise and make your day miserable... that's literally the downside of windows , yeah. its unusable.  because of him. but not because of what you said. even though i have a feeling those two things are connected...

(im using sledgehammer btw, amongst a gazillion "update killer tools" that's the most seamless and painless imho)

 

now lets go over some other stuff: no, you shouldn't turn off indexing, it maybe be fine as long you don't have many files,  but once you have a bunch of videos, pictures,  documents... you really wanna turn this on...

 

 

there's a bunch of other "tweaks" you should do, such as turning off fast startup,  and hibernation, but that doesn't involve turning off "page file", windows needs that, without exceptions... (or as said indexing) 

 

Also lastly,  just a question... you don't have windows 11 installed,  do you??  

 

 

 

[Mark Kaine]

On 11/23/2024 at 9:02 PM, LloydLynx said:

and then the contents load. Social/media sites like Youtube do this same technique, where you will see placeholder shades before the content comes in.

i mean... sometimes this happens,  but its not the norm... you know where this happens too?  On Android... and you know what that is??  ... yes, that's right!  LINUX, lol...! 

 

 That's just like, how the internet works my man, you really can't blame poor Billy for that, or can you?

[Mark Kaine]

2 hours ago, LloydLynx said:

I'm not saying it's a bad technique. But I will argue it is the norm, as I see it implemented very frequently in modern UX design. And also calling out Linux for common place UX design on Android is apples vs basket balls.

its not the norm its more something i associate with the 90s and early smartphones... barely ever see it nowadays,  but it does happen, usually seems to be server overload or similar,  not really a OS thing at all.

[digitalscream]

8 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

i honestly haven't seen adds in windows ever (if we exclude "edge", which we definitely should lol)... and that's even with vanilla windows...   don't get me wrong my windows is still vanilla, i just turned off updates because, yes, indeed,  a guy called "waasmedic" will show up constantly otherwise and make your day miserable... that's literally the downside of windows , yeah. its unusable.  because of him. but not because of what you said. even though i have a feeling those two things are connected...

(im using sledgehammer btw, amongst a gazillion "update killer tools" that's the most seamless and painless imho)

 

now lets go over some other stuff: no, you shouldn't turn off indexing, it maybe be fine as long you don't have many files,  but once you have a bunch of videos, pictures,  documents... you really wanna turn this on...

 

 

there's a bunch of other "tweaks" you should do, such as turning off fast startup,  and hibernation, but that doesn't involve turning off "page file", windows needs that, without exceptions... (or as said indexing) 

 

Also lastly,  just a question... you don't have windows 11 installed,  do you??  

 

 

 

Yeah...I guess I can do all that, but it really shouldn't be necessary in order to have a snappy, responsive system. I guess part of my problem is that I last used Windows in 2005, and this system doesn't feel particularly more responsive than my high-end system did back then (albeit through the lens of a couple of decades of ageing).

 

As it is, this is just a matter of curiosity; I don't need the Windows interface for anything other than launching games, so I can live with the laggy feeling in the UI. I've turned off indexing, as noted, because this machine isn't ever going to be used for anything that would be useful for.

[Mark Kaine]

16 minutes ago, digitalscream said:

Yeah...I guess I can do all that, but it really shouldn't be necessary in order to have a snappy, responsive system. I guess part of my problem is that I last used Windows in 2005, and this system doesn't feel particularly more responsive than my high-end system did back then (albeit through the lens of a couple of decades of ageing).

 

As it is, this is just a matter of curiosity; I don't need the Windows interface for anything other than launching games, so I can live with the laggy feeling in the UI. I've turned off indexing, as noted, because this machine isn't ever going to be used for anything that would be useful for.

also this might sound dumb, and you're probably going to tell me you already have a $1000 mouse () but that can actually make a *huge* difference, especially in combination with (other) usb devices, or even internal harddrives... yes, none of this is perfect or even great, im just telling you, it can make a difference...

 

my current pc (ryzen/nvidia system)  has always been "snappy" except when it wasn't (lol)... all down to peripherals,  hard-drives (umm Kingston A400? yikes!) and even RAM...

 

now i have Samsung/ crucial drives, Samsung RAM and a G502 HERO (wired) and it's all shockingly responsive at all times, boots fast, etc...

 

only windows "explorer" is admittedly kinda shit (it seems to hate large folders, like above 7GB or so... -.-)

 

so again, yeah you shouldn't need to do all that, but it *is* possible to have a responsive/ snappy windows system,  and im frankly quite sure Linux won't be perfect out of the gate either (you likely just already know all the ins and outs)

[Mark Kaine]

11 minutes ago, digitalscream said:

As it is, this is just a matter of curiosity; I don't need the Windows interface for anything other than launching games, so I can live with the laggy feeling in the UI. I've turned off indexing, as noted, because this machine isn't ever going to be used for anything that would be useful for.

 

nah, you could even launch steam into big picture mode and never see the windows UI... I think...

 

 

personally i absolutely hate steam bpm... so i cant really be certain... i use steam (small mode) and or windows for everything,  except sometimes other launchers obviously...

[digitalscream]

Just now, Mark Kaine said:

also this might sound dumb, and you're probably going to tell me tou have a $1000 mouse () but that can actually make a *huge* difference, especially in combining with (other) usb devices, or even internal harddrives... yes, none of this is perfect or even great, im just telling you, it can make a difference...

 

my current pc (ryzen/nvidia system)  has always been "snappy" except when it wasn't (lol)... all down to peripherals,  hard-drives (umm Kingston A400? yikes!) and even RAM...

 

now i have Samsung/ crucial drives, Samsung RAM and a G502 HERO (wired) and it's all shockingly responsive at all times, boots fast, etc...

 

only windows "explorer" is admittedly kinda shit (it seems to hate large folders, like above 7GB or so... -.-)

 

so again, yeah you shouldn't need to do all that, but it *is* possible to have a responsive/ snappy windows system,  and im frankly quite sure Linux won't be perfect out of the gate either (you likely just already know all the ins and outs)

Good lord, no...I built this system out of spare parts I had lying around. The mouse is a decent, but not exceptional, Logitech. Doesn't need to be high-spec for sim-racing.

 

As for the Linux comparison...it really is much better (smoother and more responsive) out of the box, even using GNOME; if I switch to XFCE, it's like upgrading the computer by two generations (but I happen to like the smoother experience of more animated GUIs). It's also a nicer installation experience, given that all the hardware is fully supported right out of the box (no Nvidia here).

 

Maybe part of it is that Linux only uses the swap file when it absolutely needs to, whereas Windows seems to use it all the time?

[Mark Kaine]

3 minutes ago, digitalscream said:

Good lord, no...I built this system out of spare parts I had lying around. The mouse is a decent, but not exceptional, Logitech. Doesn't need to be high-spec for sim-racing.

it doesn't need to be eXtra super high end, decent and *not* wireless seems to be enough... its the wireless stuff windows often cant handle... (aka likely driver issues)  

 

 

(for example i need to use a phone charger to use my Dualshock 4 "wireless" controller... because as soon i plug it into my pc windows throws an error and it stops working  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  )

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, digitalscream said:

Maybe part of it is that Linux only uses the swap file when it absolutely needs to, whereas Windows seems to use it all the time?

idk man...

 

 

-->

 

 

 

 

as i said, its all self taught, similar to how you know Linux i guess, after 30 odd years you get a master at making your hardware your own i guess!

 

me, i can't use Linux for shit, slow, sluggish,  illogical ad absurdum, outdated, deal with it (and i do, by not dealing with it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  )

[digitalscream]

Windows uses the page file for inactive processes, which means there's a lag when waking them up again - it's just a different model, because Linux uses it when main memory's exhausted. For example, after leaving the Windows box on overnight there was about 10% usage...that machine has 128GB RAM, there's absolutely no pressure on the memory at all.

 

For what it's worth...Linux is just plain nasty with Nvidia cards, even the iGPU on a 7th-gen Intel CPU is smoother in the user interface - I changed from a desktop with a 1080 Ti to a NUC, and I couldn't believe it when desktop performance improved out of all recognition. That's why I use AMD cards in all my machines these days, the open source drivers integrate so much better. Won't be going back to Nvidia until they properly sort out their drivers (and start giving us reasonable amounts of VRAM).

[Mark Kaine]

If you *really* have issues with "swap file" i recommend ISLC... but i would make sure "standby memory" (which is how windows calls this internally) really doesn't clear by itself... (if it doesn't then there's a real issue,  but ISLC fixes that!)

 

 

https://www.wagnardsoft.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1256

 

 

 

[Mark Kaine]

43 minutes ago, digitalscream said:

Windows uses the page file for inactive processes, which means there's a lag when waking them up again - it's just a different model, because Linux uses it when main memory's exhausted. For example, after leaving the Windows box on overnight there was about 10% usage...that machine has 128GB RAM, there's absolutely no pressure on the memory at all.

 

For what it's worth...Linux is just plain nasty with Nvidia cards, even the iGPU on a 7th-gen Intel CPU is smoother in the user interface - I changed from a desktop with a 1080 Ti to a NUC, and I couldn't believe it when desktop performance improved out of all recognition. That's why I use AMD cards in all my machines these days, the open source drivers integrate so much better. Won't be going back to Nvidia until they properly sort out their drivers (and start giving us reasonable amounts of VRAM).

yeah, but see above,  as long standby memory clears itself you can basically ignore page file (it works just differently than on linux, but not necessarily better or worse)

 

agreed about the nvidia thing... its a shame, if that wasn't the case I'd be more confident to give linux another try, but as it stands i don't really need to so i don't and im not gonna buy an amd card just for that (i need nvidia mostly for the nvenc/recording stuffs...) 

 

ps: if i can say this... i find it really weird how people complain about windows memory management, and usually these people don't let windows do it automatically,  turn indexing off and also refuse to turn off fast startup... so all things you can do wrong done wrong, but somehow its still "windows fault"... not aimed at you in particular,  just a more general observation,  because if there's one thing windows got down its memory management  - yes, it seems weird, but it literally just works (except on some hardware configurations, which is why ISLC exists, so its again a non issue) 

 

as for drivers, especially usb/ wireless i really cant tell if that's a hardware issue or software issue,  but generally windows is good with drivers too (ideally you don't need to install anything,  except gpu and chipset) 

[Mark Kaine]

idk if this helps, but this is how windows memory "management" works...

 

 

so 10GB of 16GB "used" 

 

but

 

 

it also says "15MB" free... 

 

thing is standby memory is really my "free" RAM... so plenty left, no lag, i can watch yt, copy stuff, etc, no stutters whatsoever , all while CPU is pretty much running full tilt - on the other hand, it *would* probably lag like hell if i were using a wireless mouse (yikes)  

 

 

(page file is not ever a factor in this equation,  for me at least, it's usually at like 2%... forever ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  )