New Build help

[idanach]

Games, programs or workloads that it will be used for: Gaming, Programming (planning to work with language models)

Other details (existing parts lists, whether any peripherals are needed, what you're upgrading from, when you're going to buy, what resolution and refresh rate you want to play at, etc): Have a case for ATX motherboards, have a cpu coller, 2TB HDD.

 

Current build:

Intel i7-6700

ASUS B150M-A

32 GB 2133MHz RAM 

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970 (4 GB)

550W PSU

 

Planned build:

AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D AM5

Corsair DDR5 64G (2x32G) 6000 CL30 Vengeance RGB Black

Gigabyte GeForce RTX 4070Ti (DLSS 3) GV-N407TAORUS E-12GD

Gigabyte X670 AORUS ELITE AX

Samsung SSD 1.0TB 990 PRO NVMe M.2

be quiet! PSU 750W STRAIGHT POWER 11 PLATINUM

 

Any suggestions?  Thanks!

 

[podkall]

7 minutes ago, idanach said:

have a cpu coller

what kind?

[LinusIsTuff]

There was a lot of stuff you were overpaying on. This has a better gpu and should cost about the same or less

 

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/tBfDyg

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D 4.2 GHz 8-Core Processor  ($369.00 @ Amazon) 
Motherboard: ASRock B650 LiveMixer ATX AM5 Motherboard  ($149.99 @ Newegg) 
Memory: Mushkin Redline ST 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-6400 CL32 Memory  ($179.99 @ Newegg) 
Storage: Kingston NV2 1 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  ($60.80 @ Amazon) 
Video Card: PNY VERTO OC GeForce RTX 4070 Ti SUPER 16 GB Video Card  ($789.99 @ Newegg) 
Power Supply: Deepcool PM750D 750 W 80+ Gold Certified ATX Power Supply  ($82.99 @ Adorama) 
Total: $1632.76
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-03-21 13:22 EDT-0400

[podkall]

9 minutes ago, idanach said:

Gigabyte X670 AORUS ELITE AX

any reason why you need this expensive behemoth?

 

and what's the budget? you could opt for this: (but could be better if the budget allows)

 

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D 4.2 GHz 8-Core Processor  ($369.00 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Gigabyte B650 AORUS ELITE AX ATX AM5 Motherboard  ($150.00 @ Amazon)
Memory: *Mushkin Redline ST 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-6000 CL30 Memory  ($184.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: *Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  ($84.99 @ Amazon)
Video Card: *PNY VERTO OC GeForce RTX 4070 Ti SUPER 16 GB Video Card  ($789.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: Cooler Master MWE Gold 850 - V2 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply  ($94.99 @ Amazon)
Custom: exists ($0.00)
Total: $1673.96
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
*Lowest price parts chosen from parametric criteria
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-03-21 13:28 EDT-0400

 

1 minute ago, Linuswasright said:

Storage: Kingston NV2 1 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  ($60.80 @ Amazon)

not my favorite choice for a high end build

[LinusIsTuff]

Just now, podkall said:

any reason why you need this expensive behemoth?

 

and what's the budget? you could opt for this: (but could be better if the budget allows)

 

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D 4.2 GHz 8-Core Processor  ($369.00 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Gigabyte B650 AORUS ELITE AX ATX AM5 Motherboard  ($150.00 @ Amazon)
Memory: *Mushkin Redline ST 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-6000 CL30 Memory  ($184.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: *Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  ($84.99 @ Amazon)
Video Card: *PNY VERTO OC GeForce RTX 4070 Ti SUPER 16 GB Video Card  ($789.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: Cooler Master MWE Gold 850 - V2 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply  ($94.99 @ Amazon)
Custom: exists ($0.00)
Total: $1673.96
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
*Lowest price parts chosen from parametric criteria
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-03-21 13:28 EDT-0400

 

not my favorite choice for a high end build

It’s good enough. His budget is iffy. 

Also bruv that is like my build 1:1. Also the psu is a bit overpriced, and 850 watts is a weird spot for this.

[podkall]

6 minutes ago, Linuswasright said:

It’s good enough. His budget is iffy. 

Also bruv that is like my build 1:1. Also the psu is a bit overpriced, and 850 watts is a weird spot for this.

it's fine, for a person who considered buying 200$ MB I doubt the budget is iffy,

 

also 850W for headroom, it's nice to have a PSU that doesn't freak out when you upgrade to slightly better GPU

[LinusIsTuff]

45 minutes ago, podkall said:

it's fine, for a person who considered buying 200$ MB I doubt the budget is iffy,

 

also 850W for headroom, it's nice to have a PSU that doesn't freak out when you upgrade to slightly better GPU

He hasn’t said his budget, it’s way up in the air rn.

Tru

[idanach]

7 hours ago, podkall said:

what kind?

corsair h100i pro

[idanach]

6 hours ago, Linuswasright said:

He hasn’t said his budget, it’s way up in the air rn.

Tru

I didn't say my budget because of the absurd prices in my country
Even the Planned build, converted to USD is somewhere around 2800$... 
I kind of just meant for advice aside from the budget. For any other recommendations or parts that suit the build better.

 

[LinusIsTuff]

Just now, idanach said:

I didn't say my budget because of the absurd prices in my country 
Even the Planned build, converted to USD is somewhere around 2800$... 
I kind of just meant for advice aside from the budget. For any other recommendations or parts that suit the build better.

 

Ya because you’re overpaying a lot for your planned build

What country r u in? We are good at finding prices. Most of time with high end builds it’s finding the best way to decrease cost while increasing performance.

[idanach]

1 minute ago, Linuswasright said:

Ya because you’re overpaying a lot for your planned build

What country r u in? We are good at finding prices. Most of time with high end builds it’s finding the best way to decrease cost while increasing performance.

I'm from Israel

[LinusIsTuff]

1 minute ago, idanach said:

I'm from Israel

Can u buy from Amazon de or worldwide? Where do you normally buy from

[idanach]

7 hours ago, podkall said:

any reason why you need this expensive behemoth?

 

and what's the budget? you could opt for this: (but could be better if the budget allows)

As I said in the first post, For programming/gaming station, I'm a software dev, and most of the time i need to run VMs.

[idanach]

2 minutes ago, Linuswasright said:

Can u buy from Amazon de or worldwide? Where do you normally buy from

No, I tried seeing if that was an option, but the import tax here is about 17% before shipping (Which is another bag of snakes).
After looking, I concluded that locally will be the cheaper option.

[LinusIsTuff]

5 minutes ago, idanach said:

As I said in the first post, For programming/gaming station, I'm a software dev, and most of the time i need to run VMs.

Go intel if you care more about programming, and if you care more about gaming. 7800x3d is probably a pretty good balance.

[idanach]

1 minute ago, Linuswasright said:

Go intel if you care more about programming

What is the difference? Is it better for virtualization?

[podkall]

4 hours ago, idanach said:

What is the difference? Is it better for virtualization?

Intel has more cores, but if more cores don't matter then AMD is good, AMD is better but it's even more expensive for productivity with their 7900x and 7950x,

 

7800x3D is good for gaming, it has 6 cores 12 threads, big cache, the big cache can be good at some productive tasks too, it really just depends what the program you're going to use wants, if it just goes off of like a GPU and likes Nvidia more and doesn't care about CPU you can just get the gaming CPU,

 

 

4 hours ago, idanach said:

I didn't say my budget because of the absurd prices in my country
Even the Planned build, converted to USD is somewhere around 2800$... 
I kind of just meant for advice aside from the budget. For any other recommendations or parts that suit the build better.

 

so, to save budget you could get:

- cheaper B650 motherboard

- for SSD you can get any of these, the higher price (based on US pricing) the better: (the top 2 area bout same)

PCPartPicker Part List

Storage: TEAMGROUP MP33 1 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 3.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  ($61.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital Blue SN570 1 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 3.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  ($69.99 @ Western Digital)
Storage: TEAMGROUP MP44L 1 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  ($64.98 @ Amazon)
Storage: Acer Predator GM7000 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  ($124.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital Black SN770 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  ($138.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $460.94
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-03-22 02:08 EDT-0400

 

 

-and I can definitely find cheaper PSU that still won't explode when GPU decides to work hard

[BahnStormer]

On 3/22/2024 at 6:10 AM, podkall said:

Intel has more cores, but if more cores don't matter then AMD is good, AMD is better but it's even more expensive for productivity with their 7900x and 7950x,

 

7800x3D is good for gaming, it has 6 cores 12 threads, big cache, the big cache can be good at some productive tasks too, it really just depends what the program you're going to use wants, if it just goes off of like a GPU and likes Nvidia more and doesn't care about CPU you can just get the gaming CPU,

to clarify a few points: 

7800X3D is 8 cores, 16 threads.

 

Most games use 6 or less cores, unless they're hosting a server while playing.... so there is no benefit to lots more cores unless you're using software that can actually use those cores (e.g. some video rendering / CAD modelling can't use the GPU and needs a powerful CPU).

 

Once you go above 8 cores things can get messy too: 

 

"The Intel has more cores" statement is technically correct, but very misleading:

 

Intel top i9's (e.g. 14900K) has 8 VERY inefficient, but very fast "performance" cores (16 thread) will be used for gaming and another 16 "efficiency" cores that are there so the inefficient cores can power down for most day-to-day tasks.... in theory all 24 cores can be active at the same time, but usually have to clock themselves to a much slower speed unless you have incredibly high end cooling and power delivery (the CPU is quoted as 125W.... to 253W..... but actually needs over 400W to deliver all-core boost even for a few seconds.... and 400W of cooling!). Intel cores also run at a higher clock speed to compensate for their lower IPC (instructions per clock) and lack of L3 cache. In theory this 8P+16E core layout gives this CPU a 24 cores count (and 32 threads). The i9 has the most cache for any Intel CPU 32Mb L3 and a smaller amount of L1 and L2 per core.

 

What matters more for gaming is the on-CPU L3 cache... this where AMD has massively helped, but also caused a LOT of confusion.... both for consumers AND for Windows!

 

AMD has two main branches of high end CPUs (ignoring the F / G variants for now!)... they are the X and X3D versions.

 

X still has a good amount of L3 cache and tries to just brute force the productivity workloads with cores (e.g. 7950X with 16 cores and 32 threads). The Ryzen CPU's cores are already very efficient (peak load around 200W, compared to 400W in the i9)... so all 16 cores are the same "performance" version and they are arranged in two banks of 8, with 32Mb cache per bank: 64Mb L3 cache, plus a smaller amount of L1 and L2 per core. It has the same number of usable threads as the Intel for content creation, but narrowly loses out on most productivity (video editing) benchmarks by 5%-10% with only a few equally narrow wins on things like 7zip.

 

X3D is where it can get REALLY messy:, but also really good for gamers if you choose carefully:

 

Ryzen 7 7800X3D is the top pick for gamers and it is the most straight-forward: it has one bank of 8 cores, 16 threads and it has 96Mb L3 cache dedicated to those cores.... despite running at a ~20% LOWER clock speed than the X-variant, it absolutely thrashes it in games.... it even beats the 14900K in most games despite the i9 14900K running at 40% high clock speed (4.2Ghz vs 6Ghz) and using 120% more power (170W peak vs 400W peak). The 7800X3D is a very, very efficient gaming CPU! It is capable of doing content creation (video editing), but loses to other CPUs with higher clock speeds and more cores.

 

Ryzen 9 (e.g. 7950X3D) is where it gets confusing as it is one half (8 cores) of 7800X3D (lower clock speed, but 96Mb L3 cache) and the other half X-series (higher clock speed, only 32Mb L3 cache).... so in theory you could get the 16 cores 32 thread productivity performance AND the 7800X3D gaming performance.

 

The 7900X3D is the same layout, but only 6 cores on each half - still very capable, but has the some potential draw-backs.

 

In practice Windows sometimes struggles to separate these two sets of capabilities in the Ryzen 9 CPUs (for now), so sometimes you get the game running on the lower L3 cache by mistake... overall it is VERY capable and a very clever design, but also definitely compromised.

 

In theory you could try to de-activate the high-clock side of the 7950X3D to guarantee your games run on the 3D V-cache side... but unless you are constantly needing to switch over to productivity loads, why not just buy a 7800X3D instead?

[Ofear]

Is the 7800X3D is future proof CPU?

I mean, does Unreal 5.4 and assuming Unreal 6 will make games more efficient as using all cores like video editing software?

 

Will this impact the choice of selecting this CPU?

I'm one click from ordering the 7800X3D (seems like it the best CPU for the value)

[podkall]

36 minutes ago, Ofear said:

Is the 7800X3D is future proof CPU?

I mean, does Unreal 5.4 and assuming Unreal 6 will make games more efficient as using all cores like video editing software?

 

Will this impact the choice of selecting this CPU?

I'm one click from ordering the 7800X3D (seems like it the best CPU for the value)

7800x3D is the fastest gaming CPU in current selection of CPUs

[Why_Me]

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/unreal-engine-intel-core-14th-gen-vs-amd-ryzen-7000/

 

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: *Intel Core i7-13700F 2.1 GHz 16-Core Processor  ($344.99 @ Amazon) 
CPU Cooler: *Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120 SE 66.17 CFM CPU Cooler  ($35.90 @ Amazon) 
Motherboard: *MSI B760 GAMING PLUS WIFI ATX LGA1700 Motherboard  ($159.99 @ Amazon) 
Memory: *Mushkin Redline ST 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-6000 CL30 Memory  ($184.99 @ Newegg) 
Storage: *Acer Predator GM7000 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  ($124.99 @ Amazon) 
Video Card: *Gigabyte EAGLE OC GeForce RTX 4070 Ti SUPER 16 GB Video Card  ($799.99 @ Newegg) 
Power Supply: *MSI MAG A850GL PCIE5 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply  ($89.99 @ Amazon) 
Total: $1740.84
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
*Lowest price parts chosen from parametric criteria
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-03-24 06:29 EDT-0400

[BahnStormer]

4 hours ago, Ofear said:

Is the 7800X3D is future proof CPU?

I mean, does Unreal 5.4 and assuming Unreal 6 will make games more efficient as using all cores like video editing software?

 

Will this impact the choice of selecting this CPU?

I'm one click from ordering the 7800X3D (seems like it the best CPU for the value)

Never kid yourself that overspending now will somehow get you some miracle "future-proof" CPU.... there never has been such a thing.

 

7800X3D is, on average, the fastest gaming CPU available today... plus on AM5 there will be 8000 and SHOULD be at least 9000 series CPU's over the next couple of years.

 

In theory the three other contenders to other "fastest CPU" titles:

i9 14900K (or any of the other almost identical variants like the 13900K, 13900KS, 14900KS) - but it is a dead-end platform and mind-bendingly power hungry and hot...

R9 7950X - very efficient all-rounder, better at productivity than the X3D... but not much better than a R7 7800X for games.

R9 7950X3D - very interesting concept, could theoretically deliver almost all the 7950X core capacity AND the 7800X3D's games performance, but Windows doesn't quite know how to manage all those vastly different capabilities right now.... a bit like if you put an Intel P-core/E-core CPU on Windows before they optimised the task scheduler for it.

 

Personally I'd opt for the 7800X3D every day of the week and eagerly look forward to the a Windows Task scheduler upgrade that will make it worth paying the extra for a 8950X3D/9950X3D on the same platform in the future.

[BahnStormer]

4 hours ago, Why_Me said:

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/unreal-engine-intel-core-14th-gen-vs-amd-ryzen-7000/

 

 

Don't confuse Unreal Engine "shader compile" performance with gaming... those scores are productivity scores for the game DEVELOPERS... they have zero bearing on the Unreal engine gaming performance.

 

7800X3D should still be able to handle "programming" and most LLM work will be off-loaded to the GPU, so focus on getting a GPU that supports the software you're using (nVidia normally has better support via their CUDA cores, if you are in any doubt).

[Ofear]

Last question, I'm coming from 30+- years of Intel CPU only, (yeah, I'm that old..)

Is there a difference regarding Bios? Or any other behaviors that I need to be aware of? 

(Have a little fear changing to AMD)

[BahnStormer]

You'll be fine (I'm even older!*): Other than the fact that it's now "UEFI" not "BIOS"... but this is for AMD and Intel... but overall the interface should feel very familiar to any current Intel build and reasonably familiar to legacy BIOS, especially when you put it in "advanced" mode - it reverts to more detailed "lines of options", instead of a clickable GUI.

 

In terms of what needs to be changed in the BIOS: it is all reasonably intuitive and will be the same as Intel... the only difference is in the more advanced tweaking of settings. 

 

There's not a huge benefit in trying too much tweaking / overclocking other than the RAM: default speeds with AMD/Intel are very slow and you normally need to enable the XMP profile to ensure that the RAM runs at the recognised, tested performance speeds. In AMD systems this is called "EXPO"/"DOCP", instead of "XMP", but it's all the same supported higher clock speed + voltage + tighter memory timings... but this is not the same as actually "overclocking" a system to run at a higher than advertised speed.

 

Applying XMP is as difficult as finding the RAM options and selecting "apply XMP/EXPO/DOCP".

After that, the only "advanced" EUFI/BIOS activity you might consider is manually tuning the RAM timings... it's a low risk way to get a bit of performance and normally allows you to UNDERvolt your RAM - can make a nice difference to speed and temps as the XMP profiles tend to overvolt quite a bit, which can generate a lot of heat. There are great guides on how to do this and the fall-back option is always just to set it back to XMP in the UEFI/BIOS if it gets unstable.

 

*Strange to think of that level of brand loyalty... I just stuck with whatever was the best at the time! When I was a kid tinkering with my first PCs.I briefly had an Intel 8086 4.77Mhz.... then onto my first non-Intel "X20 clone" that had a 12Mhz "boost" speed.... never looked back: Intel 286, a hybrid Intel 386DX25 + AMD FPU "co-processor" in the early 90's... a few Intel/AMD 486's... then a Cyrix 6x86 in the mid-90's.... and have been bouncing back and forth between AMD and Intel ever since then (Athlon MP, Dual Intel P3s, x64 dual cores, Intel C2Q/X... still running a netbook with a C2Duo!)...

 

Until Ryzen came along I had a string of Intels, but the value of an AM4 platform has just been incredible.... I only upgrade every two years and I got fed up with the new motherboard + new RAM every time I wanted a decent step improvement in CPU.... I still have a "spare PC" (my son's gaming PC) that is a 5yr old B450 board that has had a 1600X, 2700X and now 5800X3D!