3090 vs 4070 super vs 4070 ti

[Agall]

13 minutes ago, GuiltySpark_ said:

 

This concept I think many have a real problem with in theory. Less effort will need to be put into optimization if the end result is your expected to always use some sort of machine learning enhancement, I think is people's fear. Oversimplifying but that's the gist of it.  

 

Personally I think the tech is exciting and I'm totally here for seeing how it progresses, I don't have the doom and gloom outlook yet. 

I'll have to reverify this with more accurate quantities, but in Warframe I ended up enabling DLSS Quality even though I don't need to. I couldn't find a scenario where it was noticeable, it marginally increased my framerate while also reducing power consumption.

 

Yeah, there's a limit to it, but if a 75W dGPU can get sufficient rasterization performance and then have enough tensor cores to bat above its power draw in performance, I see that as a win for the consumer and the environment.

 

7 minutes ago, podkall said:

that's more of Cinebench kind of application power I'd assume, you're not drawing 200+W on 150W turbo spec CPU if you're gaming

I agree, but its an extreme value to consider if we're discussing a potential power limitation with the PSU. Unrelated to the 12600kf but to the topic, AD102 and the RTX 3090 to be specific is notorious for insane short power spikes, where going one step above the PSU recommendation was generally a good idea. It varied heavily by the AIB, but is always worth a consideration with AD102 and upper end RX 6000 that has the same problem. RTX 3090 with its doubled sided VRAM configuration is also notorious for VRAM temp problems.

 

I'm unsure of OP's country of origin, but given the Euro signs, I assume somewhere where power isn't the cheapest given the current geopolitical climate. 12600kf being a great value CPU and would pair nicely with any of these choices, but I'd simply opt for the 4070S if it were me.

[podkall]

10 minutes ago, GuiltySpark_ said:

For sure but you want to consider max load of all components at once. Gaming yeah, it would be fine. 

not in gaming,

 

5 minutes ago, Agall said:

I agree, but its an extreme value to consider if we're discussing a potential power limitation with the PSU. Unrelated to the 12600kf but to the topic, AD102 and the RTX 3090 to be specific is notorious for insane short power spikes, where going one step above the PSU recommendation was generally a good idea. It varied heavily by the AIB, but is always worth a consideration with AD102 and upper end RX 6000 that has the same problem. RTX 3090 with its doubled sided VRAM configuration is also notorious for VRAM temp problems.

 

I'm unsure of OP's country of origin, but given the Euro signs, I assume somewhere where power isn't the cheapest given the current geopolitical climate. 12600kf being a great value CPU and would pair nicely with any of these choices, but I'd simply opt for the 4070S if it were me.

honestly I'd be more concerned if it wasn't an A-tier PSU, but TX is A-tier, so we're underestimating a powerful boy here

 

on same note, here's my screenshot for 5600 with PBO while playing R6 siege capped 90fps on ultra settings 1080p,

 

it hits above 60W, but full power in cinebench can go 10-20W more up to 70-80W:

 

[GuiltySpark_]

Just now, podkall said:

not in gaming

I understand, but you don’t size a PSU for gaming, you size it for max power draw of all components at the same time. 

[podkall]

1 minute ago, GuiltySpark_ said:

I understand, but you don’t size a PSU for gaming, you size it for max power draw of all components at the same time. 

only if your use case actually goes as far as doing an all core load + GPU, let's remember that even if all core load is a thing, it's also in programs that don't utilize GPU that much, unless it's like Blender or something

[GuiltySpark_]

Just now, podkall said:

only if your use case actually goes as far as doing an all core load + GPU, let's remember that even if all core load is a thing, it's also in programs that don't utilize GPU that much, unless it's like Blender or something

I don't agree. If I'm specing a system, the PSU installed should be able to power all the components i'm putting it it at full load. OCCT actually has a test for this. I think it would be irresponsible to build a system for someone that is going to trip PSU protection circuit if they happen to load up a game with a CPU render happening in the background. 

[podkall]

15 minutes ago, GuiltySpark_ said:

I don't agree. If I'm specing a system, the PSU installed should be able to power all the components i'm putting it it at full load. OCCT actually has a test for this. I think it would be irresponsible to build a system for someone that is going to trip PSU protection circuit if they happen to load up a game with a CPU render happening in the background. 

yeah yeah I agree, if I'm building system I 95% of the time check on GPU's power and then even on AMD I'm seeing if I can go 100W above recommended,

 

but on upgrade it could work, if the TX750 isn't old it might handle the 3090 very well with 0 issues with the Intel CPU, @Ed.Nev's probably more of a gamer

 

unless I'm wrong, I don't think they use any program that does both CPU + GPU at 100% power

[podkall]

46 minutes ago, Agall said:

I'm unsure of OP's country of origin, but given the Euro signs, I assume somewhere where power isn't the cheapest given the current geopolitical climate. 12600kf being a great value CPU and would pair nicely with any of these choices, but I'd simply opt for the 4070S if it were me.

I guess the 4070S/Ti isn't the worst choice, speed is speed, the only downside of Ti is the price,

 

hmmm, I guess if it's not 4K or AAA 1440p, then Super's good despite some VRAM emptiness feel

[Agall]

11 minutes ago, podkall said:

I guess the 4070S/Ti isn't the worst choice, speed is speed, the only downside of Ti is the price,

 

hmmm, I guess if it's not 4K or AAA 1440p, then Super's good despite some VRAM emptiness feel

I think 12GB is the general minimum now a days, since a lot of games are built around the 16GB memory buffer of the consoles. My understanding is that 8GB can be a limit for VRAM on a dGPU but 12GB isn't since it would be reasonable to assume they'd leave at least 4GB for the CPU.

 

I've gotten games to actually use in excess of 18GB, specifically Division 2 at 4K ultra on DX12. It was a problem on my 6900 XT where I had to run DX11 which is how I know it was actually using the VRAM it was reporting and not just allocating for it. Single digit framerates unless using DX11 or lowering texture settings on the 6900 XT. Those are fringe but do lend to 4K high/ultra settings needing at least 16GB, if not 20GB.

[podkall]

3 minutes ago, Agall said:

I think 12GB is the general minimum now a days, since a lot of games are built around the 16GB memory buffer of the consoles. My understanding is that 8GB can be a limit for VRAM on a dGPU but 12GB isn't since it would be reasonable to assume they'd leave at least 4GB for the CPU.

 

I've gotten games to actually use in excess of 18GB, specifically Division 2 at 4K ultra on DX12. It was a problem on my 6900 XT where I had to run DX11 which is how I know it was actually using the VRAM it was reporting and not just allocating for it. Single digit framerates unless using DX11 or lowering texture settings on the 6900 XT. Those are fringe but do lend to 4K high/ultra settings needing at least 16GB, if not 20GB.

yeah but that's 4K, it gets different based on what resolution you're on kind of, no?

[Agall]

3 minutes ago, podkall said:

yeah but that's 4K, it gets different based on what resolution you're on kind of, no?

I believe its primarily based on texture settings, but yes, I imagine running 1440p probably won't use full 4K textures, even if the Ultra setting for texture quality does use 4K textures. I could test that in 2 weeks if I remember, since I don't have an easy way to setup my desktop still (2.5 weeks only on the Steam Deck OLED so far).

[podkall]

3 minutes ago, Agall said:

I believe its primarily based on texture settings, but yes, I imagine running 1440p probably won't use full 4K textures, even if the Ultra setting for texture quality does use 4K textures. I could test that in 2 weeks if I remember, since I don't have an easy way to setup my desktop still (2.5 weeks only on the Steam Deck OLED so far).

I found this, 1:50 is an instant timestamp if you only want to watch few seconds,

 

[Agall]

5 minutes ago, podkall said:

I found this, 1:50 is an instant timestamp if you only want to watch few seconds,

 

 

So that pretty much confirms my suspicion, texture settings can be or is resolution dependent.

 

Most people aren't playing at 4K and I imagine are still at 1080p or 1440p.

 

There's also the nature of someone running 4K is likely to buy a certain tier of dGPU, only a few of which have sufficient performance to be capable of actually running games that would have texture packs high enough in resolution to necessitate more than 12GB of VRAM. RTX 4070ti 12GB and RTX 4080 Super 16GB being potential candidates in my mind.

[podkall]

16 minutes ago, Agall said:

 

So that pretty much confirms my suspicion, texture settings can be or is resolution dependent.

 

Most people aren't playing at 4K and I imagine are still at 1080p or 1440p.

 

There's also the nature of someone running 4K is likely to buy a certain tier of dGPU, only a few of which have sufficient performance to be capable of actually running games that would have texture packs high enough in resolution to necessitate more than 12GB of VRAM. RTX 4070ti 12GB and RTX 4080 Super 16GB being potential candidates in my mind.

Isn't 4080 Super almost same as 3090? Only slightly less TDP

[GuiltySpark_]

3 minutes ago, podkall said:

Isn't 4080 Super almost same as 3090? Only slightly less TDP

Not really. 

 

[Agall]

7 minutes ago, podkall said:

Isn't 4080 Super almost same as 3090? Only slightly less TDP

The RTX 4070 Super is comparable to the RTX 3090 in performance, so the RTX 4080 Super is quite handsomely above that.

 

RTX 4070 Super is a '4K capable' card, but its not a 4K card, being it can run plenty of less demanding games at 4K comfortably but not the newest AAA games. That's at least how I define it, which isn't some crazy standard, but at least one I can relate to as someone who's been running 4K for a while now.

 

I'd be curious about your opinions on the RTX 4070's capabilities at 4K since you have that card, and if you agree with my arbitrary standard.

 

The RTX 3090 being close to that with its memory bandwidth which is nearly double that of the RTX 4070 Super and closer to the RTX 4090's. RTX 4080 Super falling between those two, the quantities in this being ~500GB/sec vs ~750GB/sec vs ~1TB/sec respectively. Memory bandwidth and textures/resolution being an important point of discussion, something that the upsold bin of RTX 4000 series' mid range cards struggle with like the RTX 4060ti 16GB.

[podkall]

3 minutes ago, GuiltySpark_ said:

Not really. 

 

PSU wise not performance

 

2 minutes ago, Agall said:

The RTX 4070 Super is comparable to the RTX 3090 in performance, so the RTX 4080 Super is quite handsomely above that.

yeah I meant power not performance

 

3 minutes ago, Agall said:

I'd be curious about your opinions on the RTX 4070's capabilities at 4K since you have that card, and if you agree with my arbitrary standard.

I don't have it, I have GTX 1080ti, I'm still in golden age

 

 

[GuiltySpark_]

Just now, podkall said:

PSU wise not performance

Oh, well then yeah, roughly. 4080 Super being a little better on power (320W TDP vs. 350W). The way Ada functions in general means it'll routinely be using less power. 

[podkall]

1 minute ago, GuiltySpark_ said:

Oh, well then yeah, roughly. 4080 Super being a little better on power (320W TDP vs. 350W). The way Ada functions in general means it'll routinely be using less power. 

still 320*2=640+150=790W

[Ed.Nev]

11 minutes ago, podkall said:

still 320*2=640+150=790W

Not at all saying you are wrong here but i have never heard or seen anything about doubling the “average power draw” of a gpu to determine the most it might draw. I could understand adding like 100W to get an estimate but from what i know, doubling it seems a bit extreme.

 

 

[GuiltySpark_]

6 minutes ago, podkall said:

still 320*2=640+150=790W

Oh, yeah there is no question the OP's PSU will be fine. 

[podkall]

3 minutes ago, Ed.Nev said:

Not at all saying you are wrong here but i have never heard or seen anything about doubling the “average power draw” of a gpu to determine the most it might draw. I could understand adding like 100W to get an estimate but from what i know, doubling it seems a bit extreme.

 

 

You're right, but adding 100W would be quite low,

 

3090 TDP is 350W,

 

3090 transients: (and that's FE, it's not even an OC overclocked version from different brand)

 

[podkall]

2 minutes ago, GuiltySpark_ said:

Oh, yeah there is no question the OP's PSU will be fine. 

I mean like I said, in gaming it will be fine even with a 3090 most likely

[igormp]

2 hours ago, podkall said:

You're right, but adding 100W would be quite low,

 

3090 TDP is 350W,

 

3090 transients: (and that's FE, it's not even an OC overclocked version from different brand)

 

That has been mostly solved through driver updates, and good quality PSUs should be able to handle this kind of transients without tripping OCP, so you don't need to buy an exaggerated PSU just for transients.

 

As a point of reference, I run two 3090s on a 850W PSU.

[podkall]

18 hours ago, igormp said:

That has been mostly solved through driver updates, and good quality PSUs should be able to handle this kind of transients without tripping OCP, so you don't need to buy an exaggerated PSU just for transients.

 

As a point of reference, I run two 3090s on a 850W PSU.

I'm not sure driver updates can solve base design of transistor requiring certain amount of power to go zooming, but perhaps the extremes are lower and less often I guess, I still say that for gaming when not 100%ing both CPU and GPU the 3090's probably fine

[igormp]

7 minutes ago, podkall said:

I'm not sure driver updates can solve base design of transistor requiring certain amount of power to go zooming, but perhaps the extremes are lower and less often I guess, I still say that for gaming when not 100%ing both CPU and GPU the 3090's probably fine

From the other Igor's website:

https://www.igorslab.de/en/wonder-how-invidia-the-crashes-of-the-force-rtx-3080-andrtx-3090-will-be-removed-and-still-will-be-removed-even-from-the-power-supplies-analysis/