Framework firmware support is lacking (at best)

[0591ryan]

So, I'm going to be as transparent as I can with this post since I don't want any accusations. I am a 12th gen owner of the Framework laptop and I (and others) are rather unhappy about how Framework has handled their BIOS updates but I only speak for myself. My goal here is to provoke some kind of concrete answer as to how long support will last, no to attack Framework or its employees. I will be posting links as appropriate to Framework forum threads to demonstrate my points as needed. (Note: I am GhostLegion there so you can see what I said and when). This issue for me really started almost 2 months ago in the now locked Coreboot thread (link leads to my best summary of my position) on the forums. Before this devolves into something about Coreboot specifically, let me get out ahead and say that it isn't specifically Coreboot I'm married to. I think it is the best idea for a number of reasons but hardly the sole solution. Framework's messaging and communication around firmware support and updates has been absolutely atrocious. Let me demonstrate with a few links. Here we see a response promising a follow-up and then radio silence. Here was an agreement that communication has been lacking but no follow-up. Last linked thread has multiple posters inquiring just what is going on with one even questioning if the head engineer even still works at Framework that's how little we hear from him. Before I go further, let me reiterate that this is not meant to be an attack on Framework or its employees. I like the laptop, it has its issues but I can truthfully say that some of them are outside Framework's control. It is great that Framework has designed and manufactured a laptop that is built to be repaired but if firmware support falls off after 2 years then I can truthfully say that all the repairability in the world means nothing. It's a laptop, not a toaster, it needs software support for security and compatibility and I have no idea either from previous track record (because there isn't one) nor corporate statement (because there isn't one except for the Chromebook variant. I worry about how wise of a purchase I made. I can see on my wife's laptop that her 10th gen laptop got a BIOS update in March of this year, not bad I'd say. On the other end of the spectrum, we can see products like this Asus mobo haven't gotten a BIOS update in 2 years. Neither company has a written policy to my knowledge how long long support will last. Should we not ask companies to be better? Especially if their marketing leads a consumer to believe that they are different than the rest? My hardware will last much longer than 2 years unless I break it, my wife's laptop has lasted this long.

 

TL;DR : Framework markets themselves as being greener than the competition because of the repairability with a stated focus to reduce e-waste but without consistent firmware updates, I fear their products will be reduced to e-waste. A lack of commitment and lack of communication about firmware does not help things. I want to hold Framework to their stated mission and hear an actual number for how long product support will last. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. That is the order of actions by priority and not having support last at least 3-5 years is just not going to help reduce e-waste.

[seanondemand]

Here's the thing - you chose to be an early adopter on a small brand, and being an early adopter means you get to deal with the things that go along with that - flawed products with big potential, customer support and messaging that might not necessarily be a top priority for a company that's trying to grow in other ways, a customer journey that's still developing. And that can be fun, and cool, but sometimes frustrating. If you want 5 years of updates, buy a corporate-market model from Dell, HP, or Lenovo.

 

Here's the other thing - once they delivered you a working laptop, aside from whatever warranty and extended support you might have bought, this company doesn't owe you squat. They can make the decision to make the post-sales experience suck and deal with the ramifications of that, but it's pretty rich to fire up linustechtips.com and demand a response from a company that you've probably made a single purchase with. Don't hold your breath. 

[Lurking]

Is there an issue with the laptop you need a BIOS update for?

 

Unless you get a newer CPU, or there is a fault with the old BIOS (like ASUS burning up sockets ..), you never need one. Actually manufacturers recommend not to update BIOS if there is no issue since there always is the risk of something going wrong. 

 

Security updates are Windows. That's not really what BIOS updates do unless they screwed up and forgot to enable security features.

 

And don't think manufacturers with frequent BIOS updates fix all issues. They will fix some serious issue, and sometimes introduce new issues, and then release another fix that may or may not fix things. They won't give you new features or make a real improvement.

[0591ryan]

37 minutes ago, Lurking said:

Is there an issue with the laptop you need a BIOS update for?

 

Unless you get a newer CPU, or there is a fault with the old BIOS (like ASUS burning up sockets ..), you never need one. Actually manufacturers recommend not to update BIOS if there is no issue since there always is the risk of something going wrong. 

 

Security updates are Windows. That's not really what BIOS updates do unless they screwed up and forgot to enable security features.

 

And don't think manufacturers with frequent BIOS updates fix all issues. They will fix some serious issue, and sometimes introduce new issues, and then release another fix that may or may not fix things. They won't give you new features or make a real improvement.

No, there is nothing that I think a BIOS update would fix for me. Potentially it could help with my issues but I doubt it. That isn't the point though. Consider this, if you were to buy a 12th gen Framework today, it might come with a pre 3.06 BIOS. 3.06 Beta BIOS is what delivers Thunderbolt certification and a linked thread from my post will show that support will tell customers to update to 3.06. If you were to visit the BIOS download page you will note that 3.06 is not there. It exists only as a beta on the forums...as it has for 6 months. No update on any kind of timeline. None of this remotely touches upon what I consider the crux of the problem, a lack of commitment to support the product for X number of years. Framework lauds and pushes the idea that the mainboards can be reused/repurposed for other duties when their usefulness as a laptop is at an end. You can even find projects on the forum that enable you to mount a mainboard in a 3D printed AIO or in a regular desktop chassis. This is great! Reuse of mainboards is superior to recycling them. Tell me though, would you use hardware from 10 years ago in a outside network facing role? I wouldn't. I like the thought of reusing my laptop as a NAS someday but I'd be leery of doing so if I thought any major firmware risks would never be patched if discovered. Maybe that's just me but I don't think it's too much to ask for a company ostensibly committed to reducing e-waste to support their product for some number of years. Without some kind of public comment, it's Schrodinger's cat as far as support goes. And even if we ignore that, the communication about existing firmware is absolutely terrible. 

[0591ryan]

5 hours ago, seanondemand said:

Here's the thing - you chose to be an early adopter on a small brand, and being an early adopter means you get to deal with the things that go along with that - flawed products with big potential, customer support and messaging that might not necessarily be a top priority for a company that's trying to grow in other ways, a customer journey that's still developing. And that can be fun, and cool, but sometimes frustrating. If you want 5 years of updates, buy a corporate-market model from Dell, HP, or Lenovo.

 

Here's the other thing - once they delivered you a working laptop, aside from whatever warranty and extended support you might have bought, this company doesn't owe you squat. They can make the decision to make the post-sales experience suck and deal with the ramifications of that, but it's pretty rich to fire up linustechtips.com and demand a response from a company that you've probably made a single purchase with. Don't hold your breath. 

Sure, for some things, you are quite right. I am still an early adopter even with 12th gen. You would be wrong about single purchase but that's besides the point. For hardware issues, I give quite a bit of leeway. Even some weirdness with OS-level stuff is to be somewhat expected. Support though? That's firmly within Framework's control and can be adjusted at any time unlike say a revision of laptop. I disagree with the notion that Framework owes me nothing beyond the delivery and warranty of my laptop. The promise of repairability and user freedom/modding is built into their PR and sales, while Framework is not responsible for creating alternate uses nor supporting hardware modifications, they are responsible for their messaging. If a company advertises a use that the product in question does not have, is that not false advertising? If I was sold on the idea that my laptop could be repurposed after sale into any number of other things but I'm limited by firmware support, have I been deceived? 

[Lurking]

10 minutes ago, 0591ryan said:

No, there is nothing that I think a BIOS update would fix for me. Potentially it could help with my issues but I doubt it. That isn't the point though. Consider this, if you were to buy a 12th gen Framework today, it might come with a pre 3.06 BIOS. 3.06 Beta BIOS is what delivers Thunderbolt certification and a linked thread from my post will show that support will tell customers to update to 3.06. If you were to visit the BIOS download page you will note that 3.06 is not there. It exists only as a beta on the forums...as it has for 6 months. No update on any kind of timeline. None of this remotely touches upon what I consider the crux of the problem, a lack of commitment to support the product for X number of years. Framework lauds and pushes the idea that the mainboards can be reused/repurposed for other duties when their usefulness as a laptop is at an end. You can even find projects on the forum that enable you to mount a mainboard in a 3D printed AIO or in a regular desktop chassis. This is great! Reuse of mainboards is superior to recycling them. Tell me though, would you use hardware from 10 years ago in a outside network facing role? I wouldn't. I like the thought of reusing my laptop as a NAS someday but I'd be leery of doing so if I thought any major firmware risks would never be patched if discovered. Maybe that's just me but I don't think it's too much to ask for a company ostensibly committed to reducing e-waste to support their product for some number of years. Without some kind of public comment, it's Schrodinger's cat as far as support goes. And even if we ignore that, the communication about existing firmware is absolutely terrible. 

So when you bought it, was thunderbolt advertised as a feature? And does thunderbolt not work yet?

 

Other than that, if everything works, what would a new BIOS do? 

 

On a laptop you don't upgrade the CPU that will need new BIOS. I know framework have CPU upgrade option, but that comes with a new MB anyway, so that will support the CPU.

 

Was it literally Framework employees telling you to install 3.06? Then I agree, it should be available. But manufacturers also sometimes pull a bad BIOS. 

 

Lack of BIOS isn't what will make the laptop obsolete in a few years. And laptop BIOS are much more conservative compared to desktop gamer/OC BIOS. So there is much less to go wrong. They don't get the last bit power out of the hardware like some gaming MB do. 

 

Their promise is that the laptop is repairable and upgradeable to a degree. And they deliver on that. Obviously future standards will limit upgrades somewhat, but that is outside their control. Like they can't promise that they can provide a 14th or 15th generation for your laptop since those are unknown yet and may have incompatible designs.

 

And if you don't have an issue, or need to upgrade, it isn't even recommended to upgrade BIOS. Most people just use the laptop, let Windows update, and live happily ever after. 

 

 

[0591ryan]

8 minutes ago, Lurking said:

So when you bought it, was thunderbolt advertised as a feature? And does thunderbolt not work yet?

 

Other than that, if everything works, what would a new BIOS do? 

 

On a laptop you don't upgrade the CPU that will need new BIOS. I know framework have CPU upgrade option, but that comes with a new MB anyway, so that will support the CPU.

 

Was it literally Framework employees telling you to install 3.06? Then I agree, it should be available. But manufacturers also sometimes pull a bad BIOS. 

 

Lack of BIOS isn't what will make the laptop obsolete in a few years. And laptop BIOS are much more conservative compared to desktop gamer/OC BIOS. So there is much less to go wrong. They don't get the last bit power out of the hardware like some gaming MB do. 

 

Their promise is that the laptop is repairable and upgradeable to a degree. And they deliver on that. Obviously future standards will limit upgrades somewhat, but that is outside their control. Like they can't promise that they can provide a 14th or 15th generation for your laptop since those are unknown yet and may have incompatible designs.

 

And if you don't have an issue, or need to upgrade, it isn't even recommended to upgrade BIOS. Most people just use the laptop, let Windows update, and live happily ever after. 

 

 

Let's make this a hypothetical. I have a NAS that I can access from wherever, whenever. Which is better, a NAS that is still receiving security updates as necessary or one that is not? Either one will perform the task as expected, neither is technically obsolete. Now, eventually I do expect to upgrade this laptop and yes, replace the mainboard. Could I find uses for the old mainboard that don't require network access or limited access? Sure I could. Is it unreasonable to expect a manufacturer that claims to be better or at least different to live up to that claim?

 

This isn't about one particular BIOS revision or another, this is about their continued poor messaging and communication. The lack of potential support is equally concerning. I'm not asking for a new BIOS this second or even in 6 months or whenever, when some security vulnerability pops up then I'd like it to be taken care of. Not on some specific timeline. Communication regarding what work is being done can also be improved, regardless of anything else, surely you can see how poorly Framework is communicating with its customers?

[Lurking]

2 minutes ago, 0591ryan said:

Let's make this a hypothetical. I have a NAS that I can access from wherever, whenever. Which is better, a NAS that is still receiving security updates as necessary or one that is not? Either one will perform the task as expected, neither is technically obsolete. Now, eventually I do expect to upgrade this laptop and yes, replace the mainboard. Could I find uses for the old mainboard that don't require network access or limited access? Sure I could. Is it unreasonable to expect a manufacturer that claims to be better or at least different to live up to that claim?

 

This isn't about one particular BIOS revision or another, this is about their continued poor messaging and communication. The lack of potential support is equally concerning. I'm not asking for a new BIOS this second or even in 6 months or whenever, when some security vulnerability pops up then I'd like it to be taken care of. Not on some specific timeline. Communication regarding what work is being done can also be improved, regardless of anything else, surely you can see how poorly Framework is communicating with its customers?

I'm sorry, did they sell you a laptop, or an NAS? And what have BIOS updates to do with security issues? 

 

All that BIOS updates do is fixing problems (so they actually are a sign for sloppy BIOS to begin with) or add support for new hardware. They don't really change security or features. And unlike a desktop MB that could be paired with random parts, a laptop has very limited variety. CPU and often RAM are soldered on. So they don't need a BIOS that works with hundreds of hardware combinations. They also don't overclock or go for high performance. So, a laptop will have an inherently more conservative BIOS and require much less updating. 

 

None of the major MB manufacturers will tell you when exactly they release what BIOS. They release one when GN calls them out for burning up CPUs. And then another one a week later because the first fix was bad. And their communication will be a shitshow where they tell you you lose all warranty if you update with the BIOS they tell you you have to use. Untill GN calls them out. Be happy with a more conservative approach.

 

Bill Gates also doesn't tell you months ahead what patch will be released. They get published when they do. 

 

Save complaining for when you actually have issues that require them providing a new BIOS and they don't provide one within reasonable time.

[0591ryan]

6 hours ago, Lurking said:

I'm sorry, did they sell you a laptop, or an NAS? And what have BIOS updates to do with security issues? 

 

All that BIOS updates do is fixing problems (so they actually are a sign for sloppy BIOS to begin with) or add support for new hardware. They don't really change security or features. And unlike a desktop MB that could be paired with random parts, a laptop has very limited variety. CPU and often RAM are soldered on. So they don't need a BIOS that works with hundreds of hardware combinations. They also don't overclock or go for high performance. So, a laptop will have an inherently more conservative BIOS and require much less updating. 

 

None of the major MB manufacturers will tell you when exactly they release what BIOS. They release one when GN calls them out for burning up CPUs. And then another one a week later because the first fix was bad. And their communication will be a shitshow where they tell you you lose all warranty if you update with the BIOS they tell you you have to use. Untill GN calls them out. Be happy with a more conservative approach.

 

Bill Gates also doesn't tell you months ahead what patch will be released. They get published when they do. 

 

Save complaining for when you actually have issues that require them providing a new BIOS and they don't provide one within reasonable time.

They sold me a NAS, they sold me a power bank and they sold me on the idea that when my laptop is no longer fit for use as a laptop it can be turned into other products. Clearly you aren't looking at Framework's marketing very much or you would see this. Do you want some threads proving this? Or will you take me at my word that Framework promised me (and every other customer) this concept? Just to prove this, take this thread from 2021, when Framework didn't yet have the ability in BIOS to run the mainboard without the battery and display attached. It was fixed via update but many people were pissed that functionality was promised in advertising but not delivered in the final product. Same goes for Thunderbolt certification, which like I said, is only official in the 3.06 BIOS for 12th gen and will never be given to 11th gen. BIOS updates are more than just security but that happened to be the example I chose. I seriously doubt this laptop doesn't have other issues lurking in firmware, given that Framework has outsourced the BIOS dev work to Insyde.

 

Are you really going to pretend like security and firmware aren't related? Do you not remember spectre and meltdown? How about just updating keys when signing keys get leaked? So no, I don't think I need to save my complaining for later, I was promised and sold on the idea of long-term support and yet recent events over the past 2 months have really shaken that faith and I don't think it is unreasonable to look for assurances from Framework to the contrary and a public commitment. Again, I'm not looking for a specific timeline, I'm looking for a statement along the lines of "firmware support for the next X years". That's it. Why is that so controversial to you? How can you not see how it relates to Framework's marketing? You talk about reasonable time frames...is 6 months in beta a reasonable time frame? With few status updates on when it will move out of beta and be considered a stable release?

[Qyygle]

Spectre and Meltdown are the only security patches in my recent memory that were BIOS level updates from manufacturers and I hated manufacturers that forced those patches though. The vulnerability both required physical access to the device, and the 'fix' disabled undervolting on the patched devices, which was in my opinion a much worse quality of life change compared to hypothetical bad actor stealing my computer to exploit the vulnerability (at that point, Spectre or not, they have the computer...).

 

I think I agree with you in principal, eventually Framework will have to prove that it's not only hardware they promise to keep relevant as long as possible. That being said, there's not a lot that BIOS updates have done on most laptops. More often than not, BIOS updates for my various machines in the past did more harm than good. I've seen a lot of gaming laptops (looking at you Alienware cough cough...) suddenly highly power limited via various BIOS updates compared to their launch (and reviewer) condition. The amount of time I've spent scrawling forums looking for ways to backflash to older BIOS versions is pretty considerable.

 

It would be nice to have more of the EC exposed to user editing, such as fan controls, etc. but for the amount of gain vs. what I imagine is a crunch-time to get the 16" ready right now, I'm not surprised that communications/efforts on their team in this front have dropped off for now.

[0591ryan]

8 hours ago, Qyygle said:

Spectre and Meltdown are the only security patches in my recent memory that were BIOS level updates from manufacturers and I hated manufacturers that forced those patches though. The vulnerability both required physical access to the device, and the 'fix' disabled undervolting on the patched devices, which was in my opinion a much worse quality of life change compared to hypothetical bad actor stealing my computer to exploit the vulnerability (at that point, Spectre or not, they have the computer...).

 

I think I agree with you in principal, eventually Framework will have to prove that it's not only hardware they promise to keep relevant as long as possible. That being said, there's not a lot that BIOS updates have done on most laptops. More often than not, BIOS updates for my various machines in the past did more harm than good. I've seen a lot of gaming laptops (looking at you Alienware cough cough...) suddenly highly power limited via various BIOS updates compared to their launch (and reviewer) condition. The amount of time I've spent scrawling forums looking for ways to backflash to older BIOS versions is pretty considerable.

 

It would be nice to have more of the EC exposed to user editing, such as fan controls, etc. but for the amount of gain vs. what I imagine is a crunch-time to get the 16" ready right now, I'm not surprised that communications/efforts on their team in this front have dropped off for now.

Removing undervolting was related to Plundervolt not Spectre iirc, which also requires physical access. Honestly, again, security was just the example I chose. The BIOS is not bug-free and still needs updates to squish those bugs. It took months for the beta BIOS for 11th gen to move out of beta and the 12th gen version still isn't and that beta BIOS is what guarantees Thunderbolt compatibility, something a little necessary when all ports (for Intel models) are Thunderbolt. If their communication had just dropped off temporarily, I'd agree with you but it's been like this for some time and when their primary revenue stream is hardware...I worry that firmware has taken and will always be second fiddle in their view. 

 

Consider this thread where WiFi 6E is broken on 11th gen because of a BIOS issue and also note that their linux support lead stated just under the linked comment that it looks like it will be unlikely to be fixed because they are pivoting to 13th gen. Perhaps instead of potential security flaws (which I am sure exist because no software is that good) I should have focused on concrete and tangible examples that exist today.

 

Edit: Or This official thread that reports a problem with the 3.06 beta BIOS

[kengineer79]

Having a horrible time with framework support laptop never worked out of the box but after three days of them messing around with me, basically looking for reasons not to RMA the unit and to say it's not under warranty even thought the laptop is DOA littler will, not turn on out of the box. they should do one of those secret shoppers with them. i have sent litter 300 pictures to the and they just keep asking for more 

[0591ryan]

On 7/7/2023 at 5:44 AM, kengineer79 said:

Having a horrible time with framework support laptop never worked out of the box but after three days of them messing around with me, basically looking for reasons not to RMA the unit and to say it's not under warranty even thought the laptop is DOA littler will, not turn on out of the box. they should do one of those secret shoppers with them. i have sent litter 300 pictures to the and they just keep asking for more 

That sucks but not exactly the point of this thread? Sorry to hear that either way.

[CodeAsm]

Im getting tired of the negativity. cant we just have a small update?

[CodeAsm]

On 7/7/2023 at 12:44 PM, kengineer79 said:

Having a horrible time with framework support laptop never worked out of the box but after three days of them messing around with me, basically looking for reasons not to RMA the unit and to say it's not under warranty even thought the laptop is DOA littler will, not turn on out of the box. they should do one of those secret shoppers with them. i have sent litter 300 pictures to the and they just keep asking for more 

Ive had issues with a fan, send a video (actually, i posted a hidden YT video, cause email doesnt like large MP4 files) and they shipped me a fan replacement for free. positive support experience sofar. (i first was asked to do a little cleaning, and I tried, but the little bit of dust that would maybe be there, dint make a difference once removed).

They did post in the thread about the beta firmware there where issues with the update method, especially for would be version 3.07 that they internally test. I hope they continue to work on this (cant Linus help them somehow? by allocating testers with some skills?)

[arfikk]

I also have a framework 12th gen. I signed up here because the framework forum posts on the topic essentially get locked with fanboys defending the company. I agree that as an early adopter the issues are not that unusual, but it is disappointing.

 

The messaging is extremely unclear - they claimed high and wide that they will have certified thunderbolt 4 but it's still not there. FWIW I have lots of small issues with the USB ports. Also clearly (based on their posts) framework bios development and firmware is not at all done in house and so they have very little control on it. There's nothing wrong with using an ODM but it really seems that their value add is very limited...

[CodeAsm]

3 hours ago, arfikk said:

I also have a framework 12th gen. I signed up here because the framework forum posts on the topic essentially get locked with fanboys defending the company. I agree that as an early adopter the issues are not that unusual, but it is disappointing.

 

The messaging is extremely unclear - they claimed high and wide that they will have certified thunderbolt 4 but it's still not there. FWIW I have lots of small issues with the USB ports. Also clearly (based on their posts) framework bios development and firmware is not at all done in house and so they have very little control on it. There's nothing wrong with using an ODM but it really seems that their value add is very limited...

im also on there and maybe a bit of a fan. But I see the firmware issues, really hoping they get help and resources to fully develop these updates. the beta is supposed to add the thunderbolt support officially, it also is supposed to work already for some docks and modules.

The negative comments over there just spiral down and they even had to lock the thread originally (some idiot spammed curse words due to lack of updates) so im glad its open again and some updates did come. sadly its still a slow one. I dont have a thunderbolt 4 device to test either old or new firmware but if there wasnt a intel bootguard, id have tried porting coreboot myself.

 

What issues do you see with your USB? I havent, well, unless we count the ejecting procedure not always as easy (press the button and pull)and maybe i have issues with devices not always show up due to me using Arch linux and have updated the kernel (a reboot fixed it). Guess its more like a thinker laptop then normal consumers still. The tiny wire wasnt easy to solder. now have to flash the new firmware and beta firmware to see if my power standby issues appear less often. (I also always have issues with other hardware, so I blame electronics to be scared of me)

[arfikk]

Seems I missed the notification . I'm glad to see the topic is back, didn't realise insults had started flying around, that's clearly stupid.

 

The official responses are nice, but also kind of disappointing, it seems essentially they rely entirely on a support partner and that the beta was done with spare capacity they had. So essentially seems they where not planning to do any updates and completely underestimated the task :(.

 

As for my issues, I have a HP thunderbolt dock that I use also with a HP elitebook and with the framework there are lots of issues using it, disconnections mostly but also sometimes the monitor doesn't work. Ironically I used the framework to update the firmware on the dock! Then there's the powerdraw whilst in suspend, which seems to be an issue you also have :(. I'm totally fine with the issue itself, as you say it's kind of a tinkerer's laptop, but to have 0 updates is just very disappointing and doesn't match my expectation of a 'tinker' device.

 

[Likwid]

2 hours ago, arfikk said:

Seems I missed the notification . I'm glad to see the topic is back, didn't realise insults had started flying around, that's clearly stupid.

 

The official responses are nice, but also kind of disappointing, it seems essentially they rely entirely on a support partner and that the beta was done with spare capacity they had. So essentially seems they where not planning to do any updates and completely underestimated the task :(.

 

As for my issues, I have a HP thunderbolt dock that I use also with a HP elitebook and with the framework there are lots of issues using it, disconnections mostly but also sometimes the monitor doesn't work. Ironically I used the framework to update the firmware on the dock! Then there's the powerdraw whilst in suspend, which seems to be an issue you also have :(. I'm totally fine with the issue itself, as you say it's kind of a tinkerer's laptop, but to have 0 updates is just very disappointing and doesn't match my expectation of a 'tinker' device.

 

I have a few branch thunderbolt docks at work and different brand of laptops and most of time all functionality only works with respective brands are paired together and even then from time to time stuff just doesn't work.

In general Thunderbolt 3/4 just has always worked like trash even when bandwidth is not limiting factor I can't get two 5 Gbps Usb devices and Display working at the same time. Only docks that work all the time are USB 4.0 (non thunderbolt) docks

[CodeAsm]

5 hours ago, arfikk said:

Seems I missed the notification . I'm glad to see the topic is back, didn't realise insults had started flying around, that's clearly stupid.

 

The official responses are nice, but also kind of disappointing, it seems essentially they rely entirely on a support partner and that the beta was done with spare capacity they had. So essentially seems they where not planning to do any updates and completely underestimated the task :(.

 

As for my issues, I have a HP thunderbolt dock that I use also with a HP elitebook and with the framework there are lots of issues using it, disconnections mostly but also sometimes the monitor doesn't work. Ironically I used the framework to update the firmware on the dock! Then there's the powerdraw whilst in suspend, which seems to be an issue you also have :(. I'm totally fine with the issue itself, as you say it's kind of a tinkerer's laptop, but to have 0 updates is just very disappointing and doesn't match my expectation of a 'tinker' device.

 

https://community.frame.work/t/12th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-06-beta/25726/370?u=codeasm

 

I read they planned on this beta to become release but ran into issues. and yes, their partner was working on this. allocation of limited resources like human hours and humans in general (often not even theirs, but from the partner). the outcry does seem to have sparked more openess and a somewhat more idea of what to expect in the next months. sure sad it took so long, but like Linus media group, larger than a one guy shop, smaller then the big players. They will get there.