140mm Fractal stock vs 120mm Arctic P12 PWM PST

[Vincenterino]

I got Fractal meshify 2 compact which has 2 fans at front 140mm (1000rpm) and 120mm in the back. All of them 3 pin.

Because my 3080 is a big boy, im pretty sure its running quite hot, because of not enough airflow/deadzone for the gpu.

I bought value pack of Arctic P12 PWM PST some time ago so now i have 2 choices.

1) keep the stock fans and just add 1x P12 at the front + 1x P12 on bottom for intakes

2) add the front and bottom, but also change those stock 140mm for P12s

 

I understand that 140mm are overall better pick over 120mm, but i also read that people change their fractal stock fans asap. Also their max rpm is 1000 rpm while P12 max at 1800 rpm and 3 pin vs 4 pin.

I dont really care about the noise, my main goal is to get rid of the heat.

Please share your opinion.

Thanks a lot

[Agall]

5 minutes ago, Vincenterino said:

I got Fractal meshify 2 compact which has 2 fans at front 140mm (1000rpm) and 120mm in the back. All of them 3 pin.

Because my 3080 is a big boy, im pretty sure its running quite hot, because of not enough airflow/deadzone for the gpu.

I bought value pack of Arctic P12 PWM PST some time ago so now i have 2 choices.

1) keep the stock fans and just add 1x P12 at the front + 1x P12 on bottom for intakes

2) add the front and bottom, but also change those stock 140mm for P12s

 

I understand that 140mm are overall better pick over 120mm, but i also read that people change their fractal stock fans asap. Also their max rpm is 1000 rpm while P12 max at 1800 rpm and 3 pin vs 4 pin.

I dont really care about the noise, my main goal is to get rid of the heat.

Please share your opinion.

Thanks a lot

TBH I preferred the FD case fans that came with my FD Torrent and FD North over my Noctua or EKWB fans. Not sure why, but the report at the lower RPMs I run the fans at just worked better. I generally stick to sub 1200 RPM.

[RevGAM]

12 minutes ago, Vincenterino said:

I got Fractal meshify 2 compact which has 2 fans at front 140mm (1000rpm) and 120mm in the back. All of them 3 pin.

Because my 3080 is a big boy, im pretty sure its running quite hot, because of not enough airflow/deadzone for the gpu.

I bought value pack of Arctic P12 PWM PST some time ago so now i have 2 choices.

1) keep the stock fans and just add 1x P12 at the front + 1x P12 on bottom for intakes

2) add the front and bottom, but also change those stock 140mm for P12s

 

I understand that 140mm are overall better pick over 120mm, but i also read that people change their fractal stock fans asap. Also their max rpm is 1000 rpm while P12 max at 1800 rpm and 3 pin vs 4 pin.

I dont really care about the noise, my main goal is to get rid of the heat.

Please share your opinion.

Thanks a lot

Why not try both and see which best meets your needs?

[johnno23]

Stock Fractal Fans 140mm are pretty good. I have some artic 120mm and they sit in the drawer as I found them to be far too noisy. not coil whine just the sound of the air at higher speeds required to make up for smaller fan blades. they were cheap but as they sit in a drawer and do nothing I wasted my money.

if you are worried just dump them at lowest speed in the top of the case to help pull hot air out of the system as that is a benefit and will assist in faster ambient air exchange

[Vincenterino]

8 minutes ago, RevGAM said:

Why not try both and see which best meets your needs?

while i built my pc 3 times, im far from experienced builder so with me its whole day process if i have time for it

im not doing any speed running builds any time soon

So if someone dealt with similar issue and share their opinion its huge save of time for me, but also i understand other peoples time is valuable so i googled hard before creating this topic

[Vincenterino]

20 minutes ago, johnno23 said:

Stock Fractal Fans 140mm are pretty good. I have some artic 120mm and they sit in the drawer as I found them to be far too noisy. not coil whine just the sound of the air at higher speeds required to make up for smaller fan blades. they were cheap but as they sit in a drawer and do nothing I wasted my money.

if you are worried just dump them at lowest speed in the top of the case to help pull hot air out of the system as that is a benefit and will assist in faster ambient air exchange

Awesome, thanks for the tip

[GuiltySpark_]

I've got 4x Fractal Prisma 140's in my Torrents and have no complaints. At the essentially static RPM they run at in my setup they're silent. 

[RevGAM]

54 minutes ago, Vincenterino said:

I got Fractal meshify 2 compact which has 2 fans at front 140mm (1000rpm) and 120mm in the back. All of them 3 pin.

Because my 3080 is a big boy, im pretty sure its running quite hot, because of not enough airflow/deadzone for the gpu.

I bought value pack of Arctic P12 PWM PST some time ago so now i have 2 choices.

1) keep the stock fans and just add 1x P12 at the front + 1x P12 on bottom for intakes

2) add the front and bottom, but also change those stock 140mm for P12s

 

I understand that 140mm are overall better pick over 120mm, but i also read that people change their fractal stock fans asap. Also their max rpm is 1000 rpm while P12 max at 1800 rpm and 3 pin vs 4 pin.

I dont really care about the noise, my main goal is to get rid of the heat.

Please share your opinion.

Thanks a lot

U haven't tested those fans yet but if you are concerned about heat and don't care about noise, whichever has the highest static pressure should be used for intake, and the highest airflow for exhaust. That may mean a combo or just the Arctics. Sorry, I'd look for you but my break is over. 

[191x7]

Take the Fractal fans out. Put the Arctic in. You'll feel better.

What I did and never looked back. But I did use the Fractal for some time.

[TeraSeraph]

Artic P12 PWM PST fans can have some pretty annoying harmonics when pushed to higher speeds. The large blade area to root ratio causes a loud resonance. 

[Lurking]

Arctic are just average fans, so are Fractal. Fractal probably has much better consistent quality. Arctic has lot of duds that have weird noises. 140mm is better than 120mm all the time. You would need a very premium 120mm fan to be better than a really crappy 140mm fan. It's just physics and the inherent advantage of the much larger cross section of the larger fan.

 

Noctua 140mm may be an actual upgrade. But Arctic isn't. The only good thing about Arctic are the cheap 5-packs. But this tells you they sell by price, not quality.

 

It isn't just the larger fan, you also use the larger section of the dust filter to move air through. Much lower velocity of air through the filter if you use the larger fan. Pressuredrop and noise increases to the square of velocity increase. 

[RevGAM]

1 hour ago, Lurking said:

Arctic are just average fans, so are Fractal. Fractal probably has much better consistent quality. Arctic has lot of duds that have weird noises. 140mm is better than 120mm all the time. You would need a very premium 120mm fan to be better than a really crappy 140mm fan. It's just physics and the inherent advantage of the much larger cross section of the larger fan.

 

Noctua 140mm may be an actual upgrade. But Arctic isn't. The only good thing about Arctic are the cheap 5-packs. But this tells you they sell by price, not quality.

 

It isn't just the larger fan, you also use the larger section of the dust filter to move air through. Much lower velocity of air through the filter if you use the larger fan. Pressuredrop and noise increases to the square of velocity increase. 

Aside from the EK Meltemi (discontinued), and possibly the Phanteks T30, are there other fans that might beat 140s?

 

My Meltemi is currently serving as my fan on this hot day.

[RevGAM]

As you can see below, the 120mm FDs have the best pressure, and the 140s have the best airflow.

 

Dynamic X2 GP-12 PWM

• PWM support offers a wide 500 to 2,000 RPM
• Noise level
  32.2 dB (A)
• Airflow
  87.6 CFM
• Static pressure
  2.3 mm H2O
• Fan input power
  1.32 W
• Fan max input current
  0.2 A
• Fan input voltage
  12 V
• Fan starting voltage
  6 V
• Low (0-20%) PWM speed
  500 RPM
• Low PWM noise level
  <10 dB (A)
• Low PWM airflow
  30.5 CFM
• Low PWM static pressure
  0.51 mm H2O
• MTBF
  100,000 hours

Dynamic X2 GP-14 PWM

• PWM support offers a wide 500 to 1700 RPM
• Noise level
  33.7 dB (A)
• Airflow
  105.9 CFM
• Static pressure
  1.95 mm H2O
• Fan input power
  1.7 W
• Fan max input current
  0.25 A
• Fan input voltage
  12 V
• Fan starting voltage
  6 V
• Low (0-20%) PWM speed
  500 RPM
• Low PWM noise level
  <10 dB (A)
• Low PWM airflow
  47.9 CFM
• Low PWM static pressure
  0.5 mm H2O
• MTBF
  100,000 hours

 

Arctic P12 PWM PST

• Fan Speed:
  200—1800 rpm (0 rpm below 5 % PWM)
• Airflow:
  56.3 cfm | 95.7 m³/h
• Static Pressure:
  2.20 mmH₂O
• Noise Level:
  0.3 Sone
• Warranty:
  6 years
• Typical Voltage:
  12 V DC
• Starting Voltage:
  3.9 V
• Current | Voltage:
  0.1 A | 12 V DC

[Lurking]

2 hours ago, RevGAM said:

As you can see below, the 120mm FDs have the best pressure, and the 140s have the best airflow.

 

Dynamic X2 GP-12 PWM

• PWM support offers a wide 500 to 2,000 RPM
• Noise level
  32.2 dB (A)
• Airflow
  87.6 CFM
• Static pressure
  2.3 mm H2O
• Fan input power
  1.32 W
• Fan max input current
  0.2 A
• Fan input voltage
  12 V
• Fan starting voltage
  6 V
• Low (0-20%) PWM speed
  500 RPM
• Low PWM noise level
  <10 dB (A)
• Low PWM airflow
  30.5 CFM
• Low PWM static pressure
  0.51 mm H2O
• MTBF
  100,000 hours

Dynamic X2 GP-14 PWM

• PWM support offers a wide 500 to 1700 RPM
• Noise level
  33.7 dB (A)
• Airflow
  105.9 CFM
• Static pressure
  1.95 mm H2O
• Fan input power
  1.7 W
• Fan max input current
  0.25 A
• Fan input voltage
  12 V
• Fan starting voltage
  6 V
• Low (0-20%) PWM speed
  500 RPM
• Low PWM noise level
  <10 dB (A)
• Low PWM airflow
  47.9 CFM
• Low PWM static pressure
  0.5 mm H2O
• MTBF
  100,000 hours

 

Arctic P12 PWM PST

• Fan Speed:
  200—1800 rpm (0 rpm below 5 % PWM)
• Airflow:
  56.3 cfm | 95.7 m³/h
• Static Pressure:
  2.20 mmH₂O
• Noise Level:
  0.3 Sone
• Warranty:
  6 years
• Typical Voltage:
  12 V DC
• Starting Voltage:
  3.9 V
• Current | Voltage:
  0.1 A | 12 V DC

They don't show the full fan curve, so those values aren't useful. You don't know if that pressure value was measured at that flowrate. For all we know both values could be from opposite ends of the fan curve.

 

So far Noctua is the only PC fan manufacturer I ever saw a fan curve from. 

 

This also ignore that a 140mm fan moving a given airflow through a filter needs to provide significantly less pressure than a 120mm fan. The 140mm fan can move the air through the filter with much less speed for a given airflow. So this requires less pressure. Half the speed would only require a quarter of the pressure. 

 

So no, a 120mm fan won't outcompete a 140mm fan in a filtered case intake. 

[Paul17]

11 hours ago, TeraSeraph said:

Artic P12 PWM PST fans can have some pretty annoying harmonics when pushed to higher speeds. The large blade area to root ratio causes a loud resonance. 

I thought the argb version was supposedly designed (and succeeded?) to solve this - are considered 'better' fans?  At any rate, they're different?  No?   I guess that doesn't help the OP even if they were since he didn't buy that version.  

 

Anyway, the vast number of reviewers who tested Arctic fans wouldn't agree with Lurking's take.

[TeraSeraph]

6 hours ago, Paul17 said:

I thought the argb version was supposedly designed (and succeeded?) to solve this - are considered 'better' fans?  At any rate, they're different?  No?   I guess that doesn't help the OP even if they were since he didn't buy that version.  

 

Anyway, the vast number of reviewers who tested Arctic fans wouldn't agree with Lurking's take.

"I bought value pack of Arctic P12 PWM PST some time ago so now i have 2 choices." What are you on about? this is from the OP's first post. I see no mention of ARGB?

[Paul17]

1 hour ago, TeraSeraph said:

"I bought value pack of Arctic P12 PWM PST some time ago so now i have 2 choices." What are you on about? this is from the OP's first post. I see no mention of ARGB?

I'm on about the idea that the usual Arctic P12 PWM PST fans were very good at cooling and being quiet - up to about 1000 rpm - under or over - they were okay but around that speed - they had the 'annoying harmonics.'   The ARGB version of the fans supposedly don't have that issue but still offer good air flow performance and are pretty quiet.  Comparative to the non-argb version but without the annoying harmonics issue.  

[RevGAM]

12 hours ago, Lurking said:

They don't show the full fan curve, so those values aren't useful. You don't know if that pressure value was measured at that flowrate. For all we know both values could be from opposite ends of the fan curve.

 

So far Noctua is the only PC fan manufacturer I ever saw a fan curve from. 

 

This also ignore that a 140mm fan moving a given airflow through a filter needs to provide significantly less pressure than a 120mm fan. The 140mm fan can move the air through the filter with much less speed for a given airflow. So this requires less pressure. Half the speed would only require a quarter of the pressure. 

 

So no, a 120mm fan won't outcompete a 140mm fan in a filtered case intake. 

True, but those are their statistics, so why would FD make the 120 look better than the 140 for SP?

[Lurking]

1 hour ago, RevGAM said:

True, but those are their statistics, so why would FD make the 120 look better than the 140 for SP?

The static pressure number they provide could be at near-zero flow, and the flowrate could be at the very right (free flow, no pressure). None of those values are usable (zero flow isn't what you want, and in a case, you have obstruction and not free flow). Here an example of a fan curve.

 

Below I highlighted where they may have measured:

- blue may be the static pressure (at zero flow, so really useless)

- orange could be where they measured flowrate at zero pressure (free flow): also useless for a case

- Yellow is what you actually need to know since there will be pressure drop at the flow you have. But this is not the value they give you

 

The static pressure at zero flow being higher isn't "better" since zero or near zero flow isn't your objective. the graph shows a system curve, that is based on the actual case conditions (filters and other instructions). The actual flow will be where system and fan curve intersect. 

 

A larger fan also needs less pressure to move a given air volume through a filter, radiator or other obstruction. The larger cross section significantly reduced the required velocity (at given airflow). Adn pressuredrop through an obstruction increases witht he square of velocity. So if you double velocity, this quadruples pressure. But if you half the velocity, this also quarters pressure required. Larger fans (and larger cross sections) have a very big inherent advantage. No fancy invention can overcome those inherent advantages of larger fans. 

 

Note that the below only shows a curve for one speed. For multiple speeds there would be multiple fan curves. but it should simply demonstrate why just telling 2 values is totally meaningless. 

 

In real commercial life, fan manufacturers ALWAYS provide the whole fan curve (inc. for varying rpm). Only in this hobbyist PC fan scene they get away with totally incomplete data. 

 

noctua does show something, but not as clearly and for all fans as I like. Here some more explanation.

 

IME, if a manufacturer omits typically required data, this is intentional. If they did any R&D at all, they do have those data. It is 100% not acceptable to not show the entire fan curve. If they had measured favorable data, they would publish them. You cannot compare fans without the required data. what they publish at most is an indication. and that is phrasing int generously. 

 

[Paul17]

Hey, guys - the 140 fans might be quieter - push more air etc. compared to 120s - might it depends a lot on the design/quality of the fan - PLUS, there seems to be more 'premium' 120 fans - Noctua and Phanteks(?) T30/D30 - it might be a factor of the thickness sure but some 120s are 'better' than 140s - but, all being equal quality.... then...

 

Also, I read that some ppl say the 120s (at the front) look better than 140s at the front - what is that about?   

[Lurking]

1 hour ago, Paul17 said:

Hey, guys - the 140 fans might be quieter - push more air etc. compared to 120s - might it depends a lot on the design/quality of the fan - PLUS, there seems to be more 'premium' 120 fans - Noctua and Phanteks(?) T30/D30 - it might be a factor of the thickness sure but some 120s are 'better' than 140s - but, all being equal quality.... then...

 

Also, I read that some ppl say the 120s (at the front) look better than 140s at the front - what is that about?   

Looks are subjective, so draw your own conclusion. 

 

For the reasons I listed above, you would need a very expensive and sophisticated 120mm fan to out-compete an average or even crappy 140mm fan. So a $40 120mm fan could be better than a $5 140mm fan.... 

 

But if your case supports 140mm fan, there is zero logic to using a 120mm fan if performance/noise matters. If you spend tons of $ on 120mm noctua fans, you may as well get 140mm Noctua fans for a similar price and have a huge inherent advantage. and since OP already has 140mm fans of at least average quality, they would spend money on 120mm fans to potentially even downgrade performance. 

 

Don't study marketing material, study actual science if you want to decide on fans. 

[RevGAM]

5 hours ago, Lurking said:

The static pressure number they provide could be at near-zero flow, and the flowrate could be at the very right (free flow, no pressure). None of those values are usable (zero flow isn't what you want, and in a case, you have obstruction and not free flow). Here an example of a fan curve.

 

Below I highlighted where they may have measured:

- blue may be the static pressure (at zero flow, so really useless)

- orange could be where they measured flowrate at zero pressure (free flow): also useless for a case

- Yellow is what you actually need to know since there will be pressure drop at the flow you have. But this is not the value they give you

 

The static pressure at zero flow being higher isn't "better" since zero or near zero flow isn't your objective. the graph shows a system curve, that is based on the actual case conditions (filters and other instructions). The actual flow will be where system and fan curve intersect. 

 

A larger fan also needs less pressure to move a given air volume through a filter, radiator or other obstruction. The larger cross section significantly reduced the required velocity (at given airflow). Adn pressuredrop through an obstruction increases witht he square of velocity. So if you double velocity, this quadruples pressure. But if you half the velocity, this also quarters pressure required. Larger fans (and larger cross sections) have a very big inherent advantage. No fancy invention can overcome those inherent advantages of larger fans. 

 

Note that the below only shows a curve for one speed. For multiple speeds there would be multiple fan curves. but it should simply demonstrate why just telling 2 values is totally meaningless. 

 

In real commercial life, fan manufacturers ALWAYS provide the whole fan curve (inc. for varying rpm). Only in this hobbyist PC fan scene they get away with totally incomplete data. 

 

noctua does show something, but not as clearly and for all fans as I like. Here some more explanation.

 

IME, if a manufacturer omits typically required data, this is intentional. If they did any R&D at all, they do have those data. It is 100% not acceptable to not show the entire fan curve. If they had measured favorable data, they would publish them. You cannot compare fans without the required data. what they publish at most is an indication. and that is phrasing int generously. 

 

Thank you for the excellent explanation. I really appreciate it. Could you explain how total efficiency is 77 when the curve peaks below 7000? I'm assuming there's an equation involved. What is the vertical blue line at almost 27 m3/sec? If I haven't misunderstood, you are suggesting that the AF and SP listed may be "bad" because we don't have a chart like the example you provided, but you/we have no way to know since they have deliberately withheld data. I see no reason why manufacturers do this because there is no single excuse that would justify every company doing it, and all the excuses still wouldn't cover all the companies, so it smells of chicanery or malfeasance.

One thing, though: either I missed it, or you didn't answer my question: "Why would FD make the 120 look better than the 140 for SP?"

Thanks again!

[RevGAM]

5 hours ago, Lurking said:

Looks are subjective, so draw your own conclusion. 

 

For the reasons I listed above, you would need a very expensive and sophisticated 120mm fan to out-compete an average or even crappy 140mm fan. So a $40 120mm fan could be better than a $5 140mm fan.... 

 

But if your case supports 140mm fan, there is zero logic to using a 120mm fan if performance/noise matters. If you spend tons of $ on 120mm noctua fans, you may as well get 140mm Noctua fans for a similar price and have a huge inherent advantage. and since OP already has 140mm fans of at least average quality, they would spend money on 120mm fans to potentially even downgrade performance. 

 

Don't study marketing material, study actual science if you want to decide on fans. 

@Paul17 I 100% agree with @Lurking on every point.

[Paul17]

5 hours ago, Lurking said:

Looks are subjective, so draw your own conclusion. 

 

For the reasons I listed above, you would need a very expensive and sophisticated 120mm fan to out-compete an average or even crappy 140mm fan. So a $40 120mm fan could be better than a $5 140mm fan.... 

 

But if your case supports 140mm fan, there is zero logic to using a 120mm fan if performance/noise matters. If you spend tons of $ on 120mm noctua fans, you may as well get 140mm Noctua fans for a similar price and have a huge inherent advantage. and since OP already has 140mm fans of at least average quality, they would spend money on 120mm fans to potentially even downgrade performance. 

 

Don't study marketing material, study actual science if you want to decide on fans. 

So, don't get Phanteks T30s, everyone.  I'm done here.  

[Vincenterino]

Thank you all.

I learnt so much in this topic, i really appreciate it.