FRAMEWORK 16

[thanoos]

I am very excited after the announcement of framework 16! BUT... 2 problems.. 1st) Framework isn't selling in my country Greece, which is part of EU so I don't understand why and 2) will the framework include a mux switch?? I hope it does though cause I remember watching maybe Linus(?) saying that a mux switch doesn't add significant to the cost of a laptop. 

 

Would you buy framework 16 if it doesn't have mux switch??

[RONOTHAN##]

Do remember that this laptop is still very much in pre-production, so odds are it's 6 months out at least and decisions like a MUX switch are not likely to be final at this point. 

 

2 minutes ago, thanoos said:

Would you buy framework 16 if it doesn't have mux switch??

If I was in the market for one, yes, but I would be running it with the removable battery attachment because I don't need any more graphics power than an iGPU can provide in a laptop and would prefer a machine that I need to charge as little as possible. The fact it can have a dedicated GPU is irrelevant for my use case since for what I tend to do with laptops (mostly just typing), and I tend to avoid laptops with dGPUs like the plague for better battery life. Honestly, the thing that would push me away from it the most is the lack of a trackpoint (the nipple between the g, h, and b keys), since I'm just so used to having them. Don't think they're trying to steal away the Thinkpad users though, so I don't have my hopes up for it. 

 

If I was in a theoretical scenario where I would need a dGPU for gaming on the go, it would be nice to have, though I still don't think I'd care enough about the FPS I'd lose by not having it. Realistically if you're a gamer on the go and care about getting all the FPS you can possible get, you're probably gonna be getting one of those mobile workstation tier laptops instead, which gaming laptops in the Framework 16's form factor aren't really trying to compete with. 

[thanoos]

The only reason I care about a mux switch is because I am a seaman and a laptop is the way to go if I want to game. And I don't like having to buy a new laptop all the time if I want to upgrade, so framework is ideal for me.

[Bismut]

46 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

Realistically if you're a gamer on the go and care about getting all the FPS you can possible get, you're probably gonna be getting one of those mobile workstation tier laptops instead, which gaming laptops in the Framework 16's form factor aren't really trying to compete with.

It seemed like the right Framework module could offer some real cooling, not just the bare minimum to support 1/4 of a GPU like a lot of other "gaming" laptops have. We'll have to wait for reviews, but I'm excited to see what modules will exist and the potential they bring.
You can also get the 13" if you don't need a GPU, it'll be less annoying to lug around and someone might develop a keyboard replacement with a trackpoint at some point.

 

36 minutes ago, thanoos said:

a laptop is the way to go if I want to game.

Why not go for an ITX build? The Dr Zaber Sentry is bigger than a laptop, but way more flexible than even a Framework.

[thanoos]

7 minutes ago, Bismut said:

 

Why not go for an ITX build? The Dr Zaber Sentry is bigger than a laptop, but way more flexible than even a Framework.

I have no idea what is this, I will have to check it at first chance.

[Bismut]

2 minutes ago, thanoos said:

I have no idea what is this

ITX = small motherboard standard
Dr Zaber Sentry: a console-sized ITX case that can still fit large-ish GPUs and SFX PSUs, so you can have a reasonably quiet and somewhat cheap system. There's also knockoff cases on Taobao and such

[Csupati]

4 hours ago, thanoos said:

I am very excited after the announcement of framework 16! BUT... 2 problems.. 1st) Framework isn't selling in my country Greece, which is part of EU so I don't understand why and 2) will the framework include a mux switch?? I hope it does though cause I remember watching maybe Linus(?) saying that a mux switch doesn't add significant to the cost of a laptop. 

 

Would you buy framework 16 if it doesn't have mux switch??

As I see in the video , He removed the "MXM" GPU and there was still display on the LCD, so i think it has a high chance to be a mux switch there.

My fear of it is that , the GPU has 2 heatpipes only and i can hardly belive that is a 4090 or something like that.

I have some questions about it and i hope Linus or somebody can answer it:

- If its is indeed an "MXM" port with upgradeable GPU then it has some other thing that comes with it

-Charger, VRM and etc. are capable for the bigger power delevery ?

-Now as in the video shown , the "current" GPU has only 2 heatpipes, it will have a bigger ass like AW 13/15/17 6-7-8-9 gen cpu models, for better cooling performance?

-What specs will we have for it?

-We are at RTX 40xx series, but will it be compatible backwards , like GTX 10XX ,RTX 20XX and 30XX?

The modular ports are my favorite about it , i dont know who invented it but He/She was a genius!

For the keyboard reposition ,is again a great idea, but for the touchpad it self i can hope we will get big touchpad like mac's , like the hole palmrest area for work,and the keys like on the Zephyrus touch/numpad combo but the whole palmrest is touchpadd / key combo.

Msi had one laptop series that was equipped with blacklighted usb ports, but no one copyed them unfortunetly.

I know its in developing but maybe We can have  a litle bit more information about it , it would be awesome. Im very interested about what will be the final product.

[thanoos]

10 hours ago, Bismut said:

ITX = small motherboard standard
Dr Zaber Sentry: a console-sized ITX case that can still fit large-ish GPUs and SFX PSUs, so you can have a reasonably quiet and somewhat cheap system. There's also knockoff cases on Taobao and such

aah, ok then, it sounds good but that means I'll have to carry around a monitor which is not practical due to weight limitations and space on my luggage. 

[thanoos]

6 hours ago, Csupati said:

As I see in the video , He removed the "MXM" GPU and there was still display on the LCD, so i think it has a high chance to be a mux switch there.

My fear of it is that , the GPU has 2 heatpipes only and i can hardly belive that is a 4090 or something like that.

I have some questions about it and i hope Linus or somebody can answer it:

- If its is indeed an "MXM" port with upgradeable GPU then it has some other thing that comes with it

-Charger, VRM and etc. are capable for the bigger power delevery ?

-Now as in the video shown , the "current" GPU has only 2 heatpipes, it will have a bigger ass like AW 13/15/17 6-7-8-9 gen cpu models, for better cooling performance?

-What specs will we have for it?

-We are at RTX 40xx series, but will it be compatible backwards , like GTX 10XX ,RTX 20XX and 30XX?

The modular ports are my favorite about it , i dont know who invented it but He/She was a genius!

For the keyboard reposition ,is again a great idea, but for the touchpad it self i can hope we will get big touchpad like mac's , like the hole palmrest area for work,and the keys like on the Zephyrus touch/numpad combo but the whole palmrest is touchpadd / key combo.

Msi had one laptop series that was equipped with blacklighted usb ports, but no one copyed them unfortunetly.

I know its in developing but maybe We can have  a litle bit more information about it , it would be awesome. Im very interested about what will be the final product.

worst thing is I'm gonna have to do one more trip with my old laptop before they release f16 hopefully in time if all goes well

[Bismut]

8 hours ago, Csupati said:

My fear of it is that , the GPU has 2 heatpipes only and i can hardly belive that is a 4090 or something like that.

Doesn't mean that no one is going to make one in the future, that's the beauty of open standards. And they might've only produced a RX 6600 XT module or so so far, NVIDIA is pretty limiting in what they allow with their GPUs (correct me if I'm wrong please)

[Bismut]

2 hours ago, thanoos said:

aah, ok then, it sounds good but that means I'll have to carry around a monitor which is not practical due to weight limitations and space on my luggage. 

There's those portable monitors, 10 bucks says that you can figure out a way to attach one.

[thanoos]

On 3/27/2023 at 12:20 AM, Bismut said:

There's those portable monitors, 10 bucks says that you can figure out a way to attach one.

will check out about it, but I highly doubt that it's gonna be the solution for me.

[Bismut]

3 hours ago, thanoos said:

will check out about it, but I highly doubt that it's gonna be the solution for me.

I'll involve some jank for sure, but I got used to that while attending jerry rig university. That Ziptieology degree really comes in useful

[Csupati]

On 3/26/2023 at 11:19 PM, Bismut said:

Doesn't mean that no one is going to make one in the future, that's the beauty of open standards. And they might've only produced a RX 6600 XT module or so so far, NVIDIA is pretty limiting in what they allow with their GPUs (correct me if I'm wrong please)

Yes i saw in a few place that nvidia is limiting everything .

Then out best hope or option  is and EGPU adapter for the "mxm" slot, like the Lenovo ultrabay EGPU version  ,or an aliexpress mxm to pcie egpu stand. These are using PCIe 3.0X16@ 3.0 X16.

I was manage to test the Alienware Graphics Amplifier,  but its only @ 3.0 X8 and its limited by transfer speed. The M2 , expresscard, pci slot egpu adapters using 3.0  X4 sometimes 2.0 X4 speed. Maybe its gonna be a better solution then the compact  graphics unit that can be connected. 

[Bismut]

10 hours ago, Csupati said:

I was manage to test the Alienware Graphics Amplifier,  but its only @ 3.0 X8 and its limited by transfer speed.

Did they not say that the expansion thing would be x8 as well? Most laptop GPUs are not designed with x16 in mind anyway AFAIK, so the performance loss should be minimal. Same goes for an eGPU, Dawid Does Tech Stuff made a video about that and the impacts are way smaller than you might think.

[Csupati]

2 hours ago, Bismut said:

Did they not say that the expansion thing would be x8 as well? Most laptop GPUs are not designed with x16 in mind anyway AFAIK, so the performance loss should be minimal. Same goes for an eGPU, Dawid Does Tech Stuff made a video about that and the impacts are way smaller than you might think.

Im using a Clevo P751DM2-G,  it has a 3.0 X16 mxm slot,  and the ali egpu mxm adapter is same X16 so theres no performance lost, only drawback is that its not sending back signal to the screen directly , you need intel hd or a monitor .

The with the AGA i had bad performance issues,  like if i mooved in games there was hughe fps drop,  like from 120 to 30 sometimes, maybe it was AWCC that was lessing things up but i dont think it was the reason for the drop.

[Bismut]

7 minutes ago, Csupati said:

The with the AGA i had bad performance issues,  like if i mooved in games there was hughe fps drop,  like from 120 to 30 sometimes, maybe it was AWCC that was lessing things up but i dont think it was the reason for the drop.

Could you try to rephrase that? I did not understand it, I am afraid.
 

 

8 minutes ago, Csupati said:

Im using a Clevo P751DM2-G,  it has a 3.0 X16 mxm slot,  and the ali egpu mxm adapter is same X16 so theres no performance lost, only drawback is that its not sending back signal to the screen directly , you need intel hd or a monitor .

That makes sense, the GPU is likely behaving just like it would in a desktop computer. I still do not believe that the x8 lane limitation actually matters for most users though, especially if they are using laptop GPUs.

[Csupati]

56 minutes ago, Bismut said:

Could you try to rephrase that? I did not understand it, I am afraid.

So  the AGA(graphics amplifier)has X8 transfer speed , with an 5700XT i had around 120 fps and  drop to 100-90 fps while i started moving, compared when i was stationary( no turning no mooving).  With an RTX 3060TI i had bigger drops , base was around 150fps and if i mooved or turned  sometimes it went down to 30 fps.

On the other forum , theres a Guy who using an mxm 3.0 X16 egpu adapter to PCIe X16 3.0 to , He has no lost on connection at benchmarking,  while the alienware graphics amplifier had around 10% loss even if we used a monitor, not the builted in screen( we used only gpu related performance datas) the cpu was similar an i7 6700hq allcore 3.1ghz , and an i7 7700k desktop cpu tuned down to same speed.

[Bismut]

17 hours ago, Csupati said:

So  the AGA(graphics amplifier)has X8 transfer speed , with an 5700XT i had around 120 fps and  drop to 100-90 fps while i started moving, compared when i was stationary( no turning no mooving).  With an RTX 3060TI i had bigger drops , base was around 150fps and if i mooved or turned  sometimes it went down to 30 fps.

On the other forum , theres a Guy who using an mxm 3.0 X16 egpu adapter to PCIe X16 3.0 to , He has no lost on connection at benchmarking,  while the alienware graphics amplifier had around 10% loss even if we used a monitor, not the builted in screen( we used only gpu related performance datas) the cpu was similar an i7 6700hq allcore 3.1ghz , and an i7 7700k desktop cpu tuned down to same speed.

That does not sound like a proper comparison to me to be honest, I would test the exact same hardware twice, once at x8, once at x16 if possible.