Dac / soundcard for good headphones

[BlauparK]

What audio solution would you recommend to drive a sennheiser hd 598 se / 560s on the PC. Besides gaming, I like to hear classical music / opera the most, electric guitar pieces aswell. The onboard audio is kinda lackluster. I value sound quality over features, dont need home theater systems, 5.1 etc. Just pure sound over the headphones

 

The HD 598 are rated for 50 ohms, but i have readed that on the 100hz they get lot higher, the 560s are 120ohm. I could be getting a higher impedance ones in the future. Sound cards, Dac/amps are kinda unknown to me. If its available on amazon on europe would be best

 

Thanks you, regards

 

 

[191x7]

Well, you're asking the right people here, and I might be the right person to answer your call.

I have the HD 560s. And multiple other headphones, IEM-s and I have experience with budget and mid-range headphones and gaming headsets.

 

The ideal option for the HD 560s would be a AMP/DAC that has a balanced output (2.5mm or better 4.4mm) and a cable that can provide the balanced signal.

The 560s are wired balanced internally.

 

Non-balanced means the signal pushes the driver and the driver comes back to the original position on it's own.

Balanced means there's a signal that pushes the driver and there's a signal that pulls the driver.

With balanced you get a slightly higher volume, better channel separation and (some claim) better imaging for music and/or games.

 

I just checked the HD 598 SE and they have balanced internals too. And use the same cable connector as the 560s. Meaning you can use them balanced.

 

As for the recommended AMP&DAC, I got myself an Akliam PD4 that has a balanced 4.4mm out and a regular 3.5mm. The input is USB-C (PC and Phone compatible).

The AMP/DAC used inside is actually a pair of the Cirrus Logic CS4131 and there are two crystal oscilators for filtering (most other similar devices don't have those).

Here's the AliExpress link https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005149661523.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.21.1de71c244cA9lI

 

And this is the cable I got to use the headphones balanced

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001245397221.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.16.1de71c244cA9lI

(selected the 4.4 variant. I could have ordered the Akliam PD3 which has a 2.5mm balanced port - then I'd choose the other cable).

 

There are alternatively good DAC-s for a similar price like the Truthear Shio (uses a "higher" Cirrus Logic chip).
I'd recommend watching this:

 

But the HD 560s are easy to drive although the impedance is 120 Ohm.

They work quite fine over some soundcards like the Asus Xonar U5 that I also have (and which is weak for my Truthear Zero IEM-s) and even on my Realtek ALC1220.

The only two sources I found lacking for the HD 560s are a Realtek ALC 897 (cheap motherboards) and a cheap USB soundcard labeled "USB sound adapter".

 

Here's a cheap thing that drives the 560s quite nice, the HyperX Cloud also acceptable and most of my IEM-s also decently:

- a cheap USB-C to 3.5mm dongle DAC

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003955547612.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.88.5a9a1802TgEMI8

A huge upgrade over an Realtek ALC897, maybe a bit better than ALC1220. Worse then newer Realtek (2000 and 4000 series).

 

@BlauparK

[BlauparK]

Thats a really detailed response, TY so much sir

 

Looking at the video right now, regards

[Heats with Nvidia]

31 minutes ago, 191x7 said:

Non-balanced means the signal pushes the driver and the driver comes back to the original position on it's own.

Balanced means there's a signal that pushes the driver and there's a signal that pulls the driver.

With balanced you get a slightly higher volume, better channel separation and (some claim) better imaging for music and/or games.

I am sorry but that is wrong. what you describe is a push-pull configuration and single ended amplifiers and i havent seen a single ended headphone amp since the tube days. Ok, some newer tube amps also are single ended, but even the cheapest solid state headphone amps are push-pull. The only thing that makes technical sense when it comes to balanced is the better channel separation part because both drivers don`t have to share a wire for the return.

[191x7]

1 hour ago, Heats with Nvidia said:

I am sorry but that is wrong. what you describe is a push-pull configuration and single ended amplifiers and i havent seen a single ended headphone amp since the tube days. Ok, some newer tube amps also are single ended, but even the cheapest solid state headphone amps are push-pull. The only thing that makes technical sense when it comes to balanced is the better channel separation part because both drivers don`t have to share a wire for the return.

Ok, can you explain balanced for headphones? I might have outdated data or I have misunderstood the information I worked with.

[Heats with Nvidia]

Balanced means you have four wires insted of three. When you only have three, you share one wire for both drivers which is used as ground. The disadvantages are that you will have a tiny amont of bleed between the channels and you can`t use bridged amplifiers.

 

So whats the difference between a normal and a bridged amplifier? A normal amplifier can only change the voltage on one of the wires, while with a bridged amplifier you have an amplifier for both wires on the same driver. Because you basically have one unbalanced amplifier per wire. The main differences are that you can have a higher output voltage with the same supply voltage of the amplifier, because one can go to ne negative maximum and the other to the positive maximum, so you effectively have double the voltage swing. But you can have the same by doubling the supply voltage of a normal push-pull amp. You also have the disadvantage of having two amps and with that twice the distortion and noise.

 

For the driver itself, the difference is not that much, because a normal push-pull amp also has feedback and monitors its output voltage and controls the movement of the cone, because it can also deliver negative and positive voltages (hence push-pull).

 

 

[Heats with Nvidia]

Balanced lines really make sense when you have a pretty weak signal and high impedance and / or a lot of outside interference.

So its really nice for microphones, turntables and line signals when you have really long cable runs. It was actually invented for analog telephones. But for a low impedance application like headphones (and even 600Ohms Headphones are low impedance in comparision to line signals) with really short wires, i don`t see any advantage in the noise and distortion part, because you have one amp more on each driver that produces noise and distortion. Although with a good amp, this will be minimal. The only real advantage is the channel separation. But with good and rather short cables and good connectors, i don`t think thats something you should worry about when you are not at the very bleeding edge of whats possible. So when you already spent several thousand dollars on headphone gear, fine, it might make a positive difference, but if you have not, don`t worry about it. If its a feature thats built in an amp that doesn`t cost more than one without it, maybe. But don`t let it be the defining feature.

[rice guru]

4 hours ago, BlauparK said:

What audio solution would you recommend to drive a sennheiser hd 598 se / 560s on the PC. Besides gaming, I like to hear classical music / opera the most, electric guitar pieces aswell. The onboard audio is kinda lackluster. I value sound quality over features, dont need home theater systems, 5.1 etc. Just pure sound over the headphones

 

The HD 598 are rated for 50 ohms, but i have readed that on the 100hz they get lot higher, the 560s are 120ohm. I could be getting a higher impedance ones in the future. Sound cards, Dac/amps are kinda unknown to me. If its available on amazon on europe would be best

 

Thanks you, regards

 

 

If you plan to get into the headphone game the safest recommendation for me if you in the US is schiit stack has all the power anyone needs and the modi is a great DAC and most people shouldn't need more than it.  As previously stated though you can get away with pretty weak gear for these 2 headphones. If you just want something that is better than on board audio you can get something like a cheap dongle dac

[BlauparK]

1 hour ago, rice guru said:

If you plan to get into the headphone game the safest recommendation for me if you in the US is schiit stack has all the power anyone needs and the modi is a great DAC and most people shouldn't need more than it.  As previously stated though you can get away with pretty weak gear for these 2 headphones. If you just want something that is better than on board audio you can get something like a cheap dongle dac

Schiit has a webstore for europe, but prices seems to skyrocket on this one compared to the US one, don't know why. Modi+ for example is 129$ , on europe 200+ euro. Not very fair, I can afford it but makes me not so happy knowing im overpaying for it. I'm prolly going with the solution @191x7 provided me on the first post, as long as it could power a higher one on the future. TY guys

[creesch]

5 hours ago, BlauparK said:

What audio solution would you recommend to drive a sennheiser hd 598 se / 560s on the PC. Besides gaming, I like to hear classical music / opera the most, electric guitar pieces aswell. The onboard audio is kinda lackluster. I value sound quality over features, dont need home theater systems, 5.1 etc. Just pure sound over the headphones

 

The HD 598 are rated for 50 ohms, but i have readed that on the 100hz they get lot higher, the 560s are 120ohm. I could be getting a higher impedance ones in the future. Sound cards, Dac/amps are kinda unknown to me. If its available on amazon on europe would be best

 

Thanks you, regards

 

 

 

I am going to go against the grain a little bit. Their impedance and sensitivity aren't of such caliber that they are difficult to drive. You might benefit from a DAC/AMP but it doesn't need to be super special or pricey.  To clarify, the 560s have a fairly high impedance but also a fairly high sensitivity. A lot of the times only impedance is taken into account while it is just one aspect of the entire picture. 

 

As you also mention gaming you could have a look at an audio interface of decent quality. Something like the Scarlett Solo which is decently priced in Europe as well. This has the side benefit of also allowing you to plug in an XLR microphone in the future if you want to. 

 

If you really don't need the microphone input there are a variety of DAC/AMP combos out there that are quit decent to start out with that won't bankrupt you and are available in Europe. 

Something like the FiiO K3 is available for around 100 euro on Amazon. 

 

As a general disclaimer, most audio chips in desktop computers these days are fairly decent. So don't expect a huge improvement when switching to an external DAC/AMP. With laptops it is a little bit of a different story, they tend to have more noise in their output so switching from there can make a bigger difference. 

 

[rice guru]

1 hour ago, BlauparK said:

Schiit has a webstore for europe, but prices seems to skyrocket on this one compared to the US one, don't know why. Modi+ for example is 129$ , on europe 200+ euro. Not very fair, I can afford it but makes me not so happy knowing im overpaying for it. I'm prolly going with the solution @191x7 provided me on the first post, as long as it could power a higher one on the future. TY guys

yeah unfortunate. the solutions provided by 191x7 should power these headphones you wanna get fine. the limitation of a dongle dac is often power but that's fine you can just buy a headphone amp later when you want to gget something that requires it. and use a dongle as your dac instead of getting something like a modi.

[BlauparK]

I finally went with the FIIO K3 creesch suggested above for 103e , It will be arriving next week.

 

Thanks again for all the input, very informative overall. Take care

[cmndr]

TLDR: K3 is probably is probably overkill, have fun, enjoy, hope it makes you happy. 

You probably don't need to buy anything. I'd worry more about having a good seal from your headphones around your ears vs having slightly cleaner power or more of it. I'd have personally gotten a second set of headphones (ATH-M50x, DT770 32 Ohms) just so that I could swap up what sound I'm getting based on my mood. 
 

 

The 598s aren't that hard to drive (they don't need much power) and most modern desktops are "good enough" in terms of sound processing with their built in onboard audio - much of the "you need a dedicated DAC" rhetoric is a hold over from the 1990s when onboard audio sounded like hot garbage - these days it's more of a cherry on top thing than an essential. I paid around $100ish for my 598s around 10 years ago and could get them louder than was comfortable using onboard gear. 


Balanced outputs probably don't matter for headphones. Balanced cables are used to reduce line noise and push more power. Unbalanced cables are usually preferred for wire lengths under 25' and balanced cables are generally preferred for lengths over 25'. If you live near a radio tower or otherwise have tons of RF noise the calculus might shift though. I want to emphasize, noise on the line isn't usually a huge issue for audio, most of the noise occurs in frequencies above the human hearing range (your pet bat might care). More often than not, the $$$ spent on balanced connections would've been better spent on other areas of the amp to get even cleaner power (but this is splitting hairs). Depending on the design of the amp, the balanced or the unbalanced output might sound slightly better, I couldn't tell you which without either testing or digging deep into a circuit diagram.  
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/are-headphone-balanced-cables-snakeoil.5589/

Your K3 will probably be fine for the next 5-30 years (if they become obsolete it's likely because USB-C has stopped being used or there's some radical change to audio encoding) and is arguably overkill for most headphones. The usual rule of thumb I use is to spend 2-10x on headphones as you do on the DAC/Amp. My HD800s were bought for $800 used, my e10 and Shiit amp were about $200 together. They're all 10ish years old.
 

5 minutes ago, TechlessBro said:

those 500 series don’t need much power so balanced and external DAC is a bit of a waste.

This... 

[HumdrumPenguin]

On 2/25/2023 at 4:59 AM, BlauparK said:

What audio solution would you recommend to drive a sennheiser hd 598 se / 560s on the PC. Besides gaming, I like to hear classical music / opera the most, electric guitar pieces aswell. The onboard audio is kinda lackluster. I value sound quality over features, dont need home theater systems, 5.1 etc. Just pure sound over the headphones

 

The HD 598 are rated for 50 ohms, but i have readed that on the 100hz they get lot higher, the 560s are 120ohm. I could be getting a higher impedance ones in the future. Sound cards, Dac/amps are kinda unknown to me. If its available on amazon on europe would be best

 

Thanks you, regards

 

 

Both headphones you have are a tad bright. I think they would pair really, really well with a Schiit Asgard 3 and Bifrost 2. I loved that combo when I had it.

[BlauparK]

The thing is, my motherboard is 9 years old, the realtek audio on it is very outdated. That reason itself is not why I'm looking for a sound solution for the PC, it's because with the HD 598 specially on the bass lacked punch and volume overall when connceted to the computer compared to my dedicated music reproductor, and I recently purchased this nice 560s on a good deal of 115e on amazon and is the same thing. The solution 191x7 provided was quite reasonable, and as willing to pay 70e on it, preffer to do it on amazon for the K3 for 100e and be able to test it myself, and if its not working, or overkill I can just return it and try out another solution. Besides I can use the dac/amp for other devices besides the PC, what is a plus

 

@HumdrumPenguin bad thing is in europe schiit is too expensive, and that ones also a bit overkill maybe on my case as they have pointed out in the thread

 

Btw, now im not sure if balanced cables was not needed, I'll look for it after. TY again guys

[rice guru]

5 hours ago, BlauparK said:

The thing is, my motherboard is 9 years old, the realtek audio on it is very outdated. That reason itself is not why I'm looking for a sound solution for the PC, it's because with the HD 598 specially on the bass lacked punch and volume overall when connceted to the computer compared to my dedicated music reproductor, and I recently purchased this nice 560s on a good deal of 115e on amazon and is the same thing. The solution 191x7 provided was quite reasonable, and as willing to pay 70e on it, preffer to do it on amazon for the K3 for 100e and be able to test it myself, and if its not working, or overkill I can just return it and try out another solution. Besides I can use the dac/amp for other devices besides the PC, what is a plus

 

@HumdrumPenguin bad thing is in europe schiit is too expensive, and that ones also a bit overkill maybe on my case as they have pointed out in the thread

 

Btw, now im not sure if balanced cables was not needed, I'll look for it after. TY again guys

while balanced cables are not super necessary its the superior output of the 2 on the K3 more power as well as better sound quality. the thing with balanced amp or amps and DACs are they are more often designed to be balanced and the unbalanced out is often an afterthought why there is this misconception that balanced is always better. the fact is when you compare a balanced and single ended output on the same amp the single ended is more often than not worse cause again it's an afterthought.

[BlauparK]

1 hour ago, rice guru said:

while balanced cables are not super necessary its the superior output of the 2 on the K3 more power as well as better sound quality. the thing with balanced amp or amps and DACs are they are more often designed to be balanced and the unbalanced out is often an afterthought why there is this misconception that balanced is always better. the fact is when you compare a balanced and single ended output on the same amp the single ended is more often than not worse cause again it's an afterthought.

Im getting this cable that 191x7 recommended, for using the headphones with the balanced jack output 4.4mm of the K3

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001245397221.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.16.1de71c244cA9lI

 

Spoiler

 

[mishatoast]

I'm an audio engineer by trade and I can tell you when I'm doing editorial and need to hear fine details clearly, I plug my M50x's straight into my interface and call it a day. Fancy expensive DACs may offer a unique coloration to the sound you're hearing, and by all means, if you're after that unique coloration, then go for it! But most mainstream outboard interfaces (think Focusrite, Presonus, Motu, UAD, SSL, etc.) will offer pretty solid D/A conversion with decent (and transparent) headphone amplification right out of the box. You should be able to run those Sennheisers off of most interfaces.

[BlauparK]

Coming to update my experience with the fiio new k3 vs motherboard sound, after only one day of use ... First I have to say, the difference is noticeable. On the dac soundstage is definitively wider, more spatial sound, more clear differentiation between instruments specially on pieces where a whole orchestra is involved. No overlaping or mudding the sound between them oposed more to onboard sound. I can pinpoint more easily a given instrument when the whole orchestra attacks in interacting with the soloist. Is clearly lot better. Oh and Javier Camarena, the crispness is real with no sibilances on high notes. What a voice btw

 

Regarding the overkill of the dac/amp, actually with the hd 560s i need to pull the volume kinda up and use the gain swicth or it can't handle it on the single ended jack. I'm waiting for the balanced cable to get here from china in almost 2 weeks, I guess that can change things. But, the little fiio budy is at its limits already. I want to get a closed back more studio like headphones on the future and this little guy with no external power could be insufficient for them, and for wanting to go cheaper actually be lost money. Im considering already to get a more powerful output one, still deciding. I have to say though, I'm surprised of teh overall sound quality of this little thing. Is worth the money

 

Also paradoxically, despite its tiny size and ease of cables / setup it can be worse for a music device with battery, as it demands 2 much power from the usb cable. One with a power supply would not have this issue, besides able to drive higher headphones.

 

Thank you all again, learned a lot in this thread as a starting point to research myself. Still investigating many things when i have time for it, regards

[Ripred]

How did I miss this thread?  everyone else pretty much covered all the base's but id say to simplify because audio reproduction quality is a massive deep rabbit hole that would take way to long to cover everything but I Digress, unless you want to go down the rabbit hold if you want a little taste of the fidelity and original intent of the composer just start were they started with a simple quality audio interface something like a Focusrite Solo or a Presonus Studio 24c relatively cheap introduction into higher quality audio output and some inputs of you ever feel the need to record something 

[BlauparK]

You are pretty knowledgeable guys so I wanted to ask something ... I can guess that gain and volume is not the same concept / process in audio (don't really know). So does the gain switch in amps "alter" the sound signal and therefore degrades its quality or changes its behavior ?

 

Thanks

[Heats with Nvidia]

6 minutes ago, BlauparK said:

You are pretty knowledgeable guys so I wanted to ask something ... I can guess that gain and volume is not the same concept / process in audio (don't really know). So does the gain switch in amps "alter" the sound signal and therefore degrades its quality or changes its behavior ?

 

Thanks

Short answer: Not really

Long answer: Actually yes, but very, very little. At least with a good amp. Every increase in gain also amplifies the noise of every stage that comes before it and increases the distortion of that amplifier stage and every stage behind it in the signal chain. When the amp is of decent quality, don`t worry about it. Especially when its not loud enough without it.

[Ripred]

34 minutes ago, BlauparK said:

You are pretty knowledgeable guys so I wanted to ask something ... I can guess that gain and volume is not the same concept / process in audio (don't really know). So does the gain switch in amps "alter" the sound signal and therefore degrades its quality or changes its behavior ?

 

Thanks

Good question, gain works like volume but it isn't, it's first use is a balancing tool, microphones, synths and other electric instruments don't all output at the same volume, in a perfect world if you plugged all these things in,set the volume of each to the same level and all the volume knobs on a mixer to 0db everything should output the same but...they don't,gain is the attempt to bring those lower volumes up to a point where everything matches with the lowest possible distortion,good mixer practice would be all volume control start at zero,then test each input one at a time adjusting only the gain till everything is roughly the same level then from there don't touch gain anymore and volume is the fine tuning 

[Ripred]

43 minutes ago, BlauparK said:

You are pretty knowledgeable guys so I wanted to ask something ... I can guess that gain and volume is not the same concept / process in audio (don't really know). So does the gain switch in amps "alter" the sound signal and therefore degrades its quality or changes its behavior ?

 

Thanks

Put more simply any audio control turned to max can create distortion, infact before distortion was made into an intentional sound effect when you wanted to distort a guitar you would turn the gain and tube amp knobs most of the way to max on the guitar amp then control that via the output knob which was basically volume, using gain on headphones is just to bring up the sound if they are to quiet, first set volume to zero db and output of the source to the max listening level you'd like, then adjust gain until it's a good level,if you notice distortion back off the gain until it's gone then only use volume 

[191x7]

On 2/27/2023 at 12:12 AM, cmndr said:

Balanced outputs probably don't matter for headphones. Balanced cables are used to reduce line noise and push more power. Unbalanced cables are usually preferred for wire lengths under 25' and balanced cables are generally preferred for lengths over 25'. If you live near a radio tower or otherwise have tons of RF noise the calculus might shift though. I want to emphasize, noise on the line isn't usually a huge issue for audio, most of the noise occurs in frequencies above the human hearing range (your pet bat might care). More often than not, the $$$ spent on balanced connections would've been better spent on other areas of the amp to get even cleaner power (but this is splitting hairs). Depending on the design of the amp, the balanced or the unbalanced output might sound slightly better, I couldn't tell you which without either testing or digging deep into a circuit diagram.  
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/are-headphone-balanced-cables-snakeoil.5589/

 

This... 

Balanced cables for speakers and audio setups ARE NOT THE SAME THING AS BALANCED HEADPHONES.