Desolder USB Type-C jack of my Khadas tone board and solder a Type-B instead

[Chiru]

Hello

 

would this be possible?

 

I know many people here don't believe in fancy USB cables, so no need to open that debate, i prefer not to use an adapter because they might decrease sound quality, most of them are very cheaply made, besides that i can't find any.

 

 

[Mira Yurizaki]

If the USB-C port is used solely for USB 2.0 data and USB 2.0 spec power (so maybe 1A @ 5V at most), it's theoretically possible.

[RollinLower]

i'm no expert on audio stuff, but that USB port is a surface mount part. if it's only used for power than this should be possible.

you could desolder it so that you only have the solder pads left, and then strip a USB B cable and solder those wires to the pads.

you would need to find some spec sheets though to see what wire on USB B goes to what pad on the USB C pads, tough it should be possible. 

 

lot of work tough.

 

[Mira Yurizaki]

Oh, that reminds me.

 

USB is a digital signaling protocol. It will absolutely not affect the quality of any audio output (unless somehow the cable is really leaky and the analog side is right up against it, but even then it may not really matter because USB uses a differential signaling which is meant to cancel out). If anything degrades the signal, it either gets dropped or it doesn't.

[Chiru]

26 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

Oh, that reminds me.

 

USB is a digital signaling protocol. It will absolutely not affect the quality of any audio output (unless somehow the cable is really leaky and the analog side is right up against it, but even then it may not really matter because USB uses a differential signaling which is meant to cancel out). If anything degrades the signal, it either gets dropped or it doesn't.

 

Bro, my question wasn't if USB cables matters or not besides that your statement is wrong, but like i said that's not the point of the discussion. I am just interested if it's possible to do what i have in mind.

[Chiru]

30 minutes ago, RollinLower said:

i'm no expert on audio stuff, but that USB port is a surface mount part. if it's only used for power than this should be possible.

you could desolder it so that you only have the solder pads left, and then strip a USB B cable and solder those wires to the pads.

you would need to find some spec sheets though to see what wire on USB B goes to what pad on the USB C pads, tough it should be possible. 

 

lot of work tough.

 

It's used for power and digital signal

[Mira Yurizaki]

3 minutes ago, Chiru said:

Bro, my question wasn't if USB cables matters or not besides that your statement is wrong, but like i said that's not the point of the discussion. I am just interested if it's possible to do what i have in mind.

I'm poking at your reasoning for wanting to solder off the USB-C and replace it with a micro-B.

 

40 minutes ago, Chiru said:

i prefer not to use an adapter because they might decrease sound quality, most of them are very cheaply made, besides that i can't find any.

 

[rice guru]

based on past posts he has made he probably wants to use a $100 micro b cable on it. 

[Derkoli]

30 minutes ago, rice guru said:

based on past posts he has made he probably wants to use a $100 micro b cable on it. 

Remember it can only be 1.0, and MUST be cryogenically treated.

[Spuriae]

Definitely possible. Looking at the board schematic, the easiest way would probably be to solder the data connections to the choke just behind the USB-C connector, with power and ground attached to the capacitors next to the connector, rather than desoldering the USB-C connector and trying to reuse those tiny surface mount pads.

 

For full USB nervosa, cut the USB cable halfway and solder the conductors directly to the board to get rid of the unnecessary connectors and solder joints. Probably an easier mod to do, too.

[Chiru]

On 7/16/2019 at 8:42 PM, Derkoli said:

Remember it can only be 1.0, and MUST be cryogenically treated.

You are using Chord clearway XLR cables which cost 190USD, that is as much as my USB cable and my better RCA cables put together.

Then you are using NRGY-3 power cables which cost 109, that's how much i payed for my muuuuch better PS Audio cable which retails for 700+USD.

 

Not to mention your power conditioner, you don't believe in electrical noise/interferance and you buy a power conditioner

 

Also you spent wooping 2300 dollars for a freaking DAC and not even a good one, you spent 2300+ USD on a dac which doesn't even sound better than a Khadas Tone Board which costs 23 times less and sounds pretty much the same. 

 

Stop judging other people when you overpayed for everything.

 

On 7/16/2019 at 8:11 PM, rice guru said:

based on past posts he has made he probably wants to use a $100 micro b cable on it. 

Not micro B, normal "B"

 

On 7/16/2019 at 10:00 PM, Nimrodor said:

Definitely possible. Looking at the board schematic, the easiest way would probably be to solder the data connections to the choke just behind the USB-C connector, with power and ground attached to the capacitors next to the connector, rather than desoldering the USB-C connector and trying to reuse those tiny surface mount pads.

 

For full USB nervosa, cut the USB cable halfway and solder the conductors directly to the board to get rid of the unnecessary connectors and solder joints. Probably an easier mod to do, too.

That means to desolder the USB-C connector first right? Is that harder to do with solidcore conductors?

[Derkoli]

6 hours ago, Chiru said:

You are using Chord clearway XLR cables which cost 190USD, that is as much as my USB cable and my better RCA cables put together.

Then you are using NRGY-3 power cables which cost 109, that's how much i payed for my muuuuch better PS Audio cable which retails for 700+USD.

 

Not to mention your power conditioner, you don't believe in electrical noise/interferance and you buy a power conditioner

 

Also you spent wooping 2300 dollars for a freaking DAC and not even a good one, you spent 2300+ USD on a dac which doesn't even sound better than a Khadas Tone Board which costs 23 times less and sounds pretty much the same. 

 

Stop judging other people when you overpayed for everything.

Cough AC is analogue COUGH and i think a schiit yggdrasil is pretty damn good.

[Chiru]

38 minutes ago, Derkoli said:

Cough AC is analogue COUGH and i think a schiit yggdrasil is pretty damn good.

Look i will put it down in a very simple way.

 

The internet is split in to 5 main opinions regarding digital cables:

1. All cables are snake oil (including analog), the only thing that matters is the construction quality (last a long time) and are practical to use.

2. Analog cables make a difference, but power and digital don't.

3. Analog and power cables make a difference, but digital don't.

4. All cables matter

5. I don't know and/or don't care

 

You are part of the third category, i am part of of the 4th with exception that i cannot say for sure if digital matters until i have tried and if there won't be a difference it won't be a loss because i can resell it for same or higher price very easily.

 

My point is, some agree with you, some don't, doesn't mean that you are right hoiwever. For instance, i talked to a couple of amp builders and other people who work in the audio field, they belonged to the 5th category (i don't know) category, because they have never tried.

 

So i don't think you should jump and make fun at someone because he is willing to give it a try.

 

 

 

[spwath]

As I said over on sbaf, your best option is to just get a USB c cable. Any changes you make to the port or adapters and stuff could negate any benefits you get from the fancy cable.

[Derkoli]

22 minutes ago, Chiru said:

Look i will put it down in a very simple way.

 

The internet is split in to 5 main opinions regarding digital cables:

1. All cables are snake oil (including analog), the only thing that matters is the construction quality (last a long time) and are practical to use.

2. Analog cables make a difference, but power and digital don't.

3. Analog and power cables make a difference, but digital don't.

4. All cables matter

5. I don't know and/or don't care

 

You are part of the third category, i am part of of the 4th with exception that i cannot say for sure if digital matters until i have tried and if there won't be a difference it won't be a loss because i can resell it for same or higher price very easily.

 

My point is, some agree with you, some don't, doesn't mean that you are right hoiwever. For instance, i talked to a couple of amp builders and other people who work in the audio field, they belonged to the 5th category (i don't know) category, because they have never tried.

 

So i don't think you should jump and make fun at someone because he is willing to give it a try.

 

 

 

Also, I didnt even buy the cables to get better sound. They look nice and that makes me happy. Also, i bought the power conditioner as we have LOTS of surges and power cuts where i live, so i would rather spend 500 dollars on a piece of equipment rather than having a surge kill a 10,000 dollar integrated amp, and frying the DAC and the turntable i have on order.

[Spuriae]

7 hours ago, Chiru said:

That means to desolder the USB-C connector first right? Is that harder to do with solidcore conductors?

Schematic is here.

 

No, don't desolder the USB-C connector. You don't need to, it'll be difficult, soldering the other stuff doesn't become any easier if you do, you lose perfectly good IO doing that, etc.

 

Arrows point to the connections on the USB-C pads; connect your USB receptacle to these and you should be fine. Circled are places that would likely be easier to solder to, but I would want to use a multimeter to test continuity before recommending them outright.

 

If you want a USB-B connector, mount it on top of the USB-C connector with some blutack and run jumpers down to the appropriate USB-C pads. I still recommend cutting a USB-A cable in half and soldering directly to the exposed pads if you're going to be soldering anything at all.

 

I don't recommend desoldering the USB-C connector, especially if this is your first time soldering (you have a decent chance of ending up with a board with no working USB connector after messing up halfway through). There is no way to solder anything but a USB-C connector directly to USB-C pads, so there's little point in desoldering the USB-C receptacle. Soldering solid core wires is always harder than stranded, and is again not recommended if this is your first time. Definitely try verifying the alternative soldering points if you're going to go that route.

 

Like most everyone else here, I strongly recommend using a USB-C cable. The mod will work if done properly, but I'm becoming less and less certain that it'll be done properly. And I'm with @spwath on this one – even if you believe the digital cable will improve the sound, the increased number of metal interfaces here will outweigh any advantages you might theoretically get from a better cable. And even if it were done perfectly (cable soldered directly to PCB), a 99.99998% pure copper cable is meaningless when the PCB is made from at best 99.97% pure copper.

 

TL;DR:

This mod is silly but feasible.

Whatever you do, don't desolder the USB-C connector.

Just use a USB-C cable; it really doesn't make a difference.

[Chiru]

26 minutes ago, Nimrodor said:

even if you believe the digital cable will improve the sound, the increased number of metal interfaces here will outweigh any advantages you might theoretically get from a better cable.

Increased number of metal interfaces (negation/less benefit from hypotehtical benefits of the cable, correct?)  if i use an adapter or even if i solder the type-B connector running the jumpers down directly to the C pads ergo?

 

No i never soldered and i would be a fool to try it on this. However, my "stepfather" is an electrical engineer and worked for Philips, that was a long time ago when most things were still done by hand. So he is an excellent solderer and generally very gifted in doing this type of work which require precision and finesse. He also built custom electrical devices including amplifiers for people. Only drawback is technology is a bit different than back then, SMD and what not, and he doesn't know USB-C obviously, he doesn't even own a computer.

 

I didn't have the chance yet of showing it to him, wanted to gather information myself first 

[Spuriae]

28 minutes ago, Chiru said:

Increased number of metal interfaces (negation/less benefit from hypotehtical benefits of the cable, correct?)  if i use an adapter or even if i solder the type-B connector running the jumpers down directly to the C pads ergo?

 

No i never soldered and i would be a fool to try it on this. However, my "stepfather" is an electrical engineer and worked for Philips, that was a long time ago when most things were still done by hand. So he is an excellent solderer and generally very gifted in doing this type of work which require precision and finesse. He also built custom electrical devices including amplifiers for people. Only drawback is technology is a bit different than back then, SMD and what not, and he doesn't know USB-C obviously, he doesn't even own a computer.

 

I didn't have the chance yet of showing it to him, wanted to gather information myself first 

Consider each interface between materials as an impedance mismatch where the signal can possibly reflect or skew. According to physics, this effect is negligible for normal USB; according to audiophile cable logic, this is terrible and ruins everything.

 

Normal connection: USB wires>solder>USB C connector>USB C receptacle>solder>PCB

Hacked-on USB-B connector: USB wires>solder>USB B connector>USB-B receptacle>solder>jumper wires>solder>PCB

Direct to board: USB wires>solder>PCB

 

Even the best possible USB B cable put into this sort of chain should do worse than an average cable in either of the other two approaches.

 

Again, I don't recommend this mod; any decent off-the-shelf USB-C cable will work fine with the board as-is.

[Chiru]

10 minutes ago, Nimrodor said:

Consider each interface between materials as an impedance mismatch where the signal can possibly reflect or skew. According to physics, this effect is negligible for normal USB; according to audiophile cable logic, this is terrible and ruins everything.

 

Normal connection: USB wires>solder>USB C connector>USB C receptacle>solder>PCB

Hacked-on USB-B connector: USB wires>solder>USB B connector>USB-B receptacle>solder>jumper wires>solder>PCB

Direct to board: USB wires>solder>PCB

 

Even the best possible USB B cable put into this sort of chain should do worse than an average cable in either of the other two approaches.

 

Again, I don't recommend this mod; any decent off-the-shelf USB-C cable will work fine with the board as-is.

 

So the best mod would be simply to solder the cable on the PCB? That would be even better than using an USB-C cable that would of the same quality than my USB tybe-B cable, or am i wrong?

[Spuriae]

17 minutes ago, Chiru said:

 

So the best mod would be simply to solder the cable on the PCB? That would be even better than using an USB-C cable that would of the same quality than my USB tybe-B cable, or am i wrong?

From a "signal purity" standpoint, yes. You do lose the perks of a detachable cable if you do that, though.

 

I still strongly recommend using a normal USB-C cable – but hey, it's your money and your DAC.

[Chiru]

But if 

1 hour ago, Nimrodor said:

From a "signal purity" standpoint, yes. You do lose the perks of a detachable cable if you do that, though.

 

I still strongly recommend using a normal USB-C cable – but hey, it's your money and your DAC.

yeah i will keep it in mind, i am grateful for the advice.

 

another thing my cable is USB 2.0, would my DAC run fine anyway?

[spwath]

2 hours ago, Chiru said:

But if 

yeah i will keep it in mind, i am grateful for the advice.

 

another thing my cable is USB 2.0, would my DAC run fine anyway?

Yeah, that doesn't matter. Audio doesn't need thje bandwitdth of 3.0

[Spuriae]

Looking at the schematic again, it's a lot easier to use pins 1-5 on the GPIO header. The USB switch will use those data pins as the input as long as no power is supplied to the USB-C port.

[Chiru]

On 7/19/2019 at 7:13 AM, Nimrodor said:

Looking at the schematic again, it's a lot easier to use pins 1-5 on the GPIO header. The USB switch will use those data pins as the input as long as no power is supplied to the USB-C port.

I showed it to my step-father, he said it's impossible to do. The pins are so small, it's practically impossible to solder by hand, even the solder pencil is larger than the pins. It looks big on the pictures, but in reality it's super small, impossible to do by hand. So either adapter or USB-C cable.

[Spuriae]

15 minutes ago, Chiru said:

I showed it to my step-father, he said it's impossible to do. The pins are so small, it's practically impossible to solder by hand, even the solder pencil is larger than the pins. It looks big on the pictures, but in reality it's super small, impossible to do by hand. So either adapter or USB-C cable.

The GPIO pins are the massive ones at the far end of the board. Super easy to solder by hand, even for someone who's never done SMD before. Depending on which version you bought, there may be a socket here and you may not even need to solder anything to the board.