Ensuring a flicker free gaming experience

[Link8295]

Hi, wondering if anyone can help. I'm looking for a flicker free and temporal dither free gaming experience. Firstly I understand flicker can be caused by PWM. So removing that is a easy one. Where it gets complicated is that is it true that at 60 HZ refresh rate there is flicker regardless? Here are a couple of sites that talk about this not sure if I understand it correctly. Do we need 800hz displays?! https://www.nature.com/articles/srep07861

 

http://www.conradbiologic.com/articles/SubliminalFlickerI.html

Secondly temporal dithering from what I understand can introduce flickering. So if a true 8 bit panel is used that would mean no temporal dithering? But aside from the panel being used I hear that the graphics cards can enable dithering by default. Not only ATI chips and Intel integrated chips but that even nvidia geforce chips from 900 series and onwards enable dithering. I hear specifically the Playstation 4 and Xbox have dithering on by default. The Nintendo switch is a question mark since it uses older nvidia Tegra and maxwell based chip. 

 

My questions then are, is there anyway to ensure temporal dithering is off and avoid any flicker? Is there any type of display be it oled to lcd to plasma or projector combined with a source be it a gaming console or PC setup that would ensure a flicker free experience. 

 

Speaking of oled and plasma since they are self emitting displays that don't use back lights would that negate any flicker or dithering problems? I hear plasmas heavily dither and flicker using pwm but I suspect they aren't a issue since it probably happens at a high enough hz. 

 

Thanks for any help. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Link8295 said:

Hi, wondering if anyone can help. I'm looking for a flicker free and temporal dither free gaming experience. Firstly I understand flicker can be caused by PWM. So removing that is a easy one. Where it gets complicated is that is it true that at 60 HZ refresh rate there is flicker regardless? Here are a couple of sites that talk about this not sure if I understand it correctly. Do we need 800hz displays?! https://www.nature.com/articles/srep07861

 

http://www.conradbiologic.com/articles/SubliminalFlickerI.html

Secondly temporal dithering from what I understand can introduce flickering. So if a true 8 bit panel is used that would mean no temporal dithering? But aside from the panel being used I hear that the graphics cards can enable dithering by default. Not only ATI chips and Intel integrated chips but that even nvidia geforce chips from 900 series and onwards enable dithering. I hear specifically the Playstation 4 and Xbox have dithering on by default. The Nintendo switch is a question mark since it uses older nvidia Tegra and maxwell based chip. 

 

My questions then are, is there anyway to ensure temporal dithering is off and avoid any flicker? Is there any type of display be it oled to lcd to plasma or projector combined with a source be it a gaming console or PC setup that would ensure a flicker free experience. 

 

Speaking of oled and plasma since they are self emitting displays that don't use back lights would that negate any flicker or dithering problems? I hear plasmas heavily dither and flicker using pwm but I suspect they aren't a issue since it probably happens at a high enough hz. 

 

Thanks for any help. 

ok so first off i dont think ANY tech will provide flicker free experience. Second 60 is pretty ok from what ive seen. Go 144hz if you really want more, and 240 if you filthy rich. The effect of "more FPS" really drops off at around 144. Anything more and its hard to notice

[Link8295]

24 minutes ago, NovaMan01 said:

ok so first off i dont think ANY tech will provide flicker free experience. Second 60 is pretty ok from what ive seen. Go 144hz if you really want more, and 240 if you filthy rich. The effect of "more FPS" really drops off at around 144. Anything more and its hard to notice

Wouldn't a pwm free be flicker free? 

[Glenwing]

12 hours ago, Link8295 said:

Where it gets complicated is that is it true that at 60 HZ refresh rate there is flicker regardless? Here are a couple of sites that talk about this not sure if I understand it correctly. Do we need 800hz displays?! https://www.nature.com/articles/srep07861

You are misinterpreting; the article is talking about flickering rates, not refresh rates; in other words, when there is flicker, how fast would the flickering need to be for it to be not visible. That is what the article is discussing, it applies to CRTs which fade to black between each frame so have an inherent flicker that is the same as the refresh rate of the display; but the article does not apply to displays that do not flicker, such as LCDs without PWM backlighting.

12 hours ago, Link8295 said:

Secondly temporal dithering from what I understand can introduce flickering. So if a true 8 bit panel is used that would mean no temporal dithering

LCD dithering will not cause any visible flickering. The term temporal dithering usual refers to DLP projectors which show each frame of video as three frames in sequence of the red, green, and blue parts of the image, at (hopefully) a high enough speed that they blend together, but often it is not high enough, leading to visible artifacts. LCD dithering involves switching between two colors to simulate an inbetween color, as the shades are very close in color and brightness, this will not result in any visible flickering.

[Link8295]

On 10/8/2017 at 2:36 PM, Glenwing said:

You are misinterpreting; the article is talking about flickering rates, not refresh rates; in other words, when there is flicker, how fast would the flickering need to be for it to be not visible. That is what the article is discussing, it applies to CRTs which fade to black between each frame so have an inherent flicker that is the same as the refresh rate of the display; but the article does not apply to displays that do not flicker, such as LCDs without PWM backlighting.

LCD dithering will not cause any visible flickering. The term temporal dithering usual refers to DLP projectors which show each frame of video as three frames in sequence of the red, green, and blue parts of the image, at (hopefully) a high enough speed that they blend together, but often it is not high enough, leading to visible artifacts. LCD dithering involves switching between two colors to simulate an inbetween color, as the shades are very close in color and brightness, this will not result in any visible flickering.

Thanks for clearing that up. About dithering though is there anyway to ensure no dithering? Like getting a true 8bit monitor? But then I hear the gpu on a device for example like a xbox one or ps4 can force dithering even onto a 8bit monitor. Even though dithering might not cause a visible flicker I hear it may still be bad for eyestrain even if you can't see it? Some people on Intel forums and Apple forums have been making temporal dithering out as the culprit. 

 

Also would the refresh rate flicker apply to plasma televisions the way it applies to crt? Or is plasma fast enough and persistence long enough for it not to be an issue of any flicker? I know plasmas use pwm but from what I understand the pwm used in plasmas shouldn't be problematic as it's not the same kind of Pwm used in led monitors where the led is constantly flickering from on to off. 

 

Thanks for any help.