Filmmaking Thread

[SpencerHalse]

Hey Everyone, I am a Filmmaker from Melbourne, Australia, and I am starting this thread for anyone to talk about anything film related.

 

Wether that's just watching films, or having an interest in them, or if it is your career - like me - come here and we can have a chat!

[ALwin]

Ok I'll open the discussion with something I've been thinking about recently:

"Should Nikon produce a proper video camera? (something like a Nikon version of the Canon C series line of cameras)"

 

I'm sure the corporation's R&D has considered this market, but I think Nikon will face a few issues (aside from business competition):

• If Nikon were to produce a new "Cinema" oriented camera, they shouldn't use the F-mount.
• They need to come out with a new lens mount (that can be compatible with F-mount lenses via an adapter they design themselves) that has a shorter flange distance than F.
• Canon has experience with video cameras because they have been producing consumer camcorders for years, Nikon (as far as I know) does not have a consumer video camera line, not even pro video cameras like Sony has.

[PIlllIE]

5 hours ago, ALwin said:

Ok I'll open the discussion with something I've been thinking about recently:

"Should Nikon produce a proper video camera? (something like a Nikon version of the Canon C series line of cameras)"

 

I'm sure the corporation's R&D has considered this market, but I think Nikon will face a few issues (aside from business competition):

• If Nikon were to produce a new "Cinema" oriented camera, they shouldn't use the F-mount.
• They need to come out with a new lens mount (that can be compatible with F-mount lenses via an adapter they design themselves) that has a shorter flange distance than F.
• Canon has experience with video cameras because they have been producing consumer camcorders for years, Nikon (as far as I know) does not have a consumer video camera line, not even pro video cameras like Sony has.

Competition is always good as far as consumers go, so it would definitely be good for us, but I'm not sure they have much incentive to, considering most people have brand loyalty to established pro video brands.
There may be a decent space for them to break into the amateur video market, with the Canon 5D MKIV not supporting 4k in raw or prores, they would have a little bit less competition in that market (Although it'd still be tight with Sony and Black Magic having pretty damn solid offerings).

[ALwin]

11 minutes ago, PIlllIE said:

There may be a decent space for them to break into the amateur video market, with the Canon 5D MKIV not supporting 4k in raw or prores, they would have a little bit less competition in that market (Although it'd still be tight with Sony and Black Magic having pretty damn solid offerings).

Why should a camera like a Canon 5D mk IV support Cinema RAW and ProRes?  It's first and foremost a photography camera.  Every DSLR made by Canon is first and foremost a photo camera.  Same with Nikon.

 

Nikon and Canon added the capability to record video in their DSLRs because journalists requested the feature so that they can use the same camera to record both still images and some video.  Neither of those two big names added video into their cameras for the purpose of turning them into cinematography cameras, it happened by accident.

[xQubeZx]

5 hours ago, ALwin said:

Ok I'll open the discussion with something I've been thinking about recently:

"Should Nikon produce a proper video camera? (something like a Nikon version of the Canon C series line of cameras)"

 

I'm sure the corporation's R&D has considered this market, but I think Nikon will face a few issues (aside from business competition):

• If Nikon were to produce a new "Cinema" oriented camera, they shouldn't use the F-mount.
• They need to come out with a new lens mount (that can be compatible with F-mount lenses via an adapter they design themselves) that has a shorter flange distance than F.
• Canon has experience with video cameras because they have been producing consumer camcorders for years, Nikon (as far as I know) does not have a consumer video camera line, not even pro video cameras like Sony has.

I think it would be very hard for Nikon to get into the videocamera market. Firstly because as far as I know they have no real experience in making videocameras as the other large brands have. Also I don't think a user at this moment would switch from his trusty Canon hardware to invest in a new Nikon system with most likley a very limited lens selection and a lot of "first time" errors as relaitvly speaking bad ergonomics and button placements. Lacking software and small stuff like that. 

 

If Nikon where to start producing video cameras I would guess it would take them a few years, and a few camera generations, before any proffesional person would start to consider them an option over say Sony, Canon or Red. As you said the lenses would be a large problem since not only would they have to make new ones but also 3rd party lens makes as Zeiss would have any lenses avalible, and what I have seen and read on the internet a lot of people like their lenses quite a bit. 

 

Aside from these problems it could be good with some competition I guess but it could also result in less technical improvement on the DSLR side as the budget for research would be mainly spent on developing these new video cameras. Personally I would rather see Nikon make a large move into the mirrorless market and create a Full Frame (Pro grade) and an APS-C (Consumer/enthusiast) mirrorless to compete with Sony and fujifilm. I think that could sell good. 

[PIlllIE]

1 hour ago, ALwin said:

Why should a camera like a Canon 5D mk IV support Cinema RAW and ProRes?  It's first and foremost a photography camera.  Every DSLR made by Canon is first and foremost a photo camera.  Same with Nikon.

 

Nikon and Canon added the capability to record video in their DSLRs because journalists requested the feature so that they can use the same camera to record both still images and some video.  Neither of those two big names added video into their cameras for the purpose of turning them into cinematography cameras, it happened by accident.

It's less that they should, but moreso that a lot of people tend to use high-end DSLR's as amateur cinema cameras. If Nikon were to release something similar, but with the emphasis towards the video end, rather than the photography end, it might catch a lot of peoples attention. I know a lot of people who are interested in film and such at my school, but don't know brands like Black Magic, and who think of cameras as either DSLR's or massive professional cinema cameras, so if someone with a recognizable brand, such as Nikon, were to release a DSLR pricerange video-focused camera, it would likely catch their eye.

[ALwin]

18 minutes ago, PIlllIE said:

It's less that they should, but moreso that a lot of people tend to use high-end DSLR's as amateur cinema cameras. If Nikon were to release something similar, but with the emphasis towards the video end, rather than the photography end, it might catch a lot of peoples attention. I know a lot of people who are interested in film and such at my school, but don't know brands like Black Magic, and who think of cameras as either DSLR's or massive professional cinema cameras, so if someone with a recognizable brand, such as Nikon, were to release a DSLR pricerange video-focused camera, it would likely catch their eye.

A Canon 5D or Nikon D810 (both are similarly priced) costs in the neighborhood of $3000.  If someone wanted, on a shoe string budget, a "cinema" camera capable of recording ProRes they could probably do it with a $1000 range DSLR and a recorder like an Atomos Ninja Blade.

 

Another thing is the image processors inside the cameras, and of course the form factors.  Even (relatively speaking) small cameras like the Ursa Mini, Sony FS7, FS5, have fairly large cooling systems that wouldn't fit inside a camera the size of a DSLR, even if it was as large as a Nikon D5 or Canon 1D.

With the image processors, a camera like the Nikon D5 or Canon 1D (whatever the latest iteration) that can shoot continuous burst mode of 12+ fps photos can only record a few dozen photo RAW images (OK I know this is mainly limited by the buffer size and transfer speed to memory card) but video cameras like the Ursa Mini can record 4K resolution Cinema RAW files at a rate of 60fps continuously as long as the memory card has space (each Cinema RAW file is relatively about the same file size as a photo RAW file from a similar MP count sensor).  I'm wondering whether the Nikon Expeed 5 or Canon Digic6+ processor handle 60fps 4K Cinema RAW (though with the format being RAW, the processor might not face an extra load to encode to another format that they probably could).  I won't worry about transfer speed to storage media, because a camera like the Nikon D5 can use XQD cards which are fast enough for 4K 60p.

 

But I certainly don't see Nikon taking cinematography with their cameras seriously, the video recording capability of their cameras will remain at best for enthusiast or perhaps some level of ENG type use.

 

Canon on the other hand, they're making it clear:

Photography: Canon EOS #D, ##D, ###D series

Video: Canon EOS C### series

 

When they announced the 5D mk IV a lot of people complained about the video recording capabilities that Canon put into the camera... or lack of any serious upgrades to the capability.  If Canon really wants to make a 5D series camera aimed towards video they should make something like this:

 

Canon 5D (p) for Photography with that 30MP sensor

Canon 5D (v) for Cinematography with something like a 9MP sensor

In a similar fashion to how Sony made a Sony A7 s II and A 7 r II (one with a high MP sensor that is better designed towards the needs of togs and the other with a lower MP sensor that is aimed towards the video crowd).

[Bsmith]

14 hours ago, ALwin said:

A Canon 5D or Nikon D810 (both are similarly priced) costs in the neighborhood of $3000.  If someone wanted, on a shoe string budget, a "cinema" camera capable of recording ProRes they could probably do it with a $1000 range DSLR and a recorder like an Atomos Ninja Blade.

 

Another thing is the image processors inside the cameras, and of course the form factors.  Even (relatively speaking) small cameras like the Ursa Mini, Sony FS7, FS5, have fairly large cooling systems that wouldn't fit inside a camera the size of a DSLR, even if it was as large as a Nikon D5 or Canon 1D.

With the image processors, a camera like the Nikon D5 or Canon 1D (whatever the latest iteration) that can shoot continuous burst mode of 12+ fps photos can only record a few dozen photo RAW images (OK I know this is mainly limited by the buffer size and transfer speed to memory card) but video cameras like the Ursa Mini can record 4K resolution Cinema RAW files at a rate of 60fps continuously as long as the memory card has space (each Cinema RAW file is relatively about the same file size as a photo RAW file from a similar MP count sensor).  I'm wondering whether the Nikon Expeed 5 or Canon Digic6+ processor handle 60fps 4K Cinema RAW (though with the format being RAW, the processor might not face an extra load to encode to another format that they probably could).  I won't worry about transfer speed to storage media, because a camera like the Nikon D5 can use XQD cards which are fast enough for 4K 60p.

 

But I certainly don't see Nikon taking cinematography with their cameras seriously, the video recording capability of their cameras will remain at best for enthusiast or perhaps some level of ENG type use.

 

Canon on the other hand, they're making it clear:

Photography: Canon EOS #D, ##D, ###D series

Video: Canon EOS C### series

 

When they announced the 5D mk IV a lot of people complained about the video recording capabilities that Canon put into the camera... or lack of any serious upgrades to the capability.  If Canon really wants to make a 5D series camera aimed towards video they should make something like this:

 

Canon 5D (p) for Photography with that 30MP sensor

Canon 5D (v) for Cinematography with something like a 9MP sensor

In a similar fashion to how Sony made a Sony A7 s II and A 7 r II (one with a high MP sensor that is better designed towards the needs of togs and the other with a lower MP sensor that is aimed towards the video crowd).

 

I think part of the problem here is that canon had struck gold with the film/video crowd when it comes to the 5D mk2 and mk3, while their intention wasn't to make it a main selling point.

Nikon has to my knowledge(mostly consumer stuff) no real camera or system that aims at video, even when I see their commercials today they aim at the capabilities of their stills and nothing about video(point-and-shoot cams though)
But considering what you said, Canon has a background with video, more then Nikon does. sport events that get live broadcast or recorded for TV here have those huge telezoom cameras that cost around €100.000,- + easily, have special made canon lenses by preference of the camera crew. Nikon is actually no where to be seen in the professional video field, except for a journalist every now and then, that uses it for both stills and photo, but even then canon is the bigger winner when you look at what people use.

Nikon might be willing to pull it off, but they won't be able to do it the same way as canon did it, unless they launch a line up dedicated to it. The growing demands of the video capabilities can be the dead of a stills camera if they make the wrong choice, especially with phones playing a more central role in video/photography, recently I saw Vloggers using iphones to record vlogs and take photo's for their product overviews, their reasoning? "it's easy to use, works good enough and cheaper then a dedicated camera that is hard to work with" I can't argue with that given the fact most audience wouldn't notice the difference between a rigged sony a7s, a canon 5D or an iphone on a gimball, with an external audio recorder.

 

If nikon would do it, they would have to do it good at once, otherwise they might shoot themselves in the feet.

[ALwin]

51 minutes ago, Bsmith said:

snip

Frankly speaking, I think Nikon is too late to enter the cinematography game.  I started this discussion because of some wishful thought that occurred to me a few days ago during a shoot, "if only I could use the native capabilities of my Nikon lenses (like electronic aperture control and VR), this dumb adapter is quite frustrating".

 

I'm going to move onto another topic, but if anyone has anything to say about Nikon cameras and lenses for cinematography feel free to say something.

 

Just saw that Sigma is releasing a new line of lenses for the "Cine" shooters.

http://www.newsshooter.com/2016/09/07/sigma-get-into-the-cine-lens-game-with-new-super-fast-zooms-and-primes-promising-a-fundamental-change-in-digital-film-production/

 

I've been planning to get a set of cine lenses for my FS7, and have in the pipeline an order for a set of Xeen prime glass, but no zoom glass.  Cinematic zoom glass can be quite expensive.  I wonder how much the Sigma cine lenses will cost, the zoom focal ranges are close to the ranges I want.