Server Program/OS

[TheGhzGuy]

Hello all!

I'm very new to the server part of LTT, so pardon my lack of any knowledge. A friend of mine messaged me the other day asking if I wanted to help her start a website. (Imagine Deviantart, Pinterest, etc) Of course I said yes (because I like working on tech) but I have very little idea about OS's. I know there are Operating systems that are made for servers and servers alone. She and I don't live in the same state, but we both wanted to separate servers in our homes (for redundancy). Is there and OS that is capable of doing this or does one of us and one of us only have to host the servers?

 

Again, sorry of this is a stupid question, but thank you for looking!

[noobkilervip]

Ubuntu Server is a good choice becuase the lack of virus and it free or if you want windows server iis you can get a 180 days trial but persinely i will recommend ubuntu server with apache there is a good script called koken and chevereto but you have to pay for chevereto for koken is free

[TheGhzGuy]

1 minute ago, noobkilervip said:

Ubuntu Server is a good choice becuase the lack of virus and it free or if you want windows server iis you can get a 180 days trial but persinely i will recommend ubuntu server with apache there is a good script called koken and chevereto but you have to pay for chevereto for koken is free

I'll take a look at that, thank you for the suggestion!

[noobkilervip]

No Probloam Glad to help you 

[GreezyJeezy]

i used Ubuntu Server 15.10, its all text based like most server OS's so be prepared for that  

[TheGhzGuy]

1 minute ago, GreezyJeezy said:

i used Ubuntu Server 15.10, its all text based like most server OS's so be prepared for that  

Hey, that's half the fun lol

[noobkilervip]

you can install xfce what is a light wait and then vnc into it that a good alterntive but you might be worried about security if you will to deploy it in a bussniess enviment 

[TheGhzGuy]

1 minute ago, noobkilervip said:

you can install xfce what is a light wait and then vnc into it that a good alterntive but you might be worried about security if you will to deploy it in a bussniess enviment 

Yeah, I am pretty worried about security. So that may not work

[GreezyJeezy]

2 minutes ago, TheGhzGuy said:

Hey, that's half the fun lol

the first week i was trying to figure out how to open files, its was the remembering of commands part i couldn't get 

[noobkilervip]

But without xfce ubuntu server is very secure more than windows server but when you go installing script like wordpress plugins it can be hacked just dont do that learned that the hard way 

[TheGhzGuy]

2 minutes ago, GreezyJeezy said:

the first week i was trying to figure out how to open files, its was the remembering of commands part i couldn't get 

Ah yeah, I can see how that could be really annoying.

[TheGhzGuy]

2 minutes ago, noobkilervip said:

But without xfce ubuntu server is very secure more than windows server but when you go installing script like wordpress plugins it can be hacked just dont do that learned that the hard way 

Good to know. Thank you!

[Jarsky]

If you're going to be making a big dynamic website like DeviantArt/Pinterest from scratch you're going to need to know your programming, and different languages are dependant on different code libraries, and therefore have different OS requirements.

 

If you're going to be writing it in .NET or ASP then you're going to want to run it in an IIS environment for best compatibility which would be on a Windows Server OS. If you're going to be using common web languages like Python and/or PHP then you can go for a Linux based OS.

 

It's really up to what you're writing the site in. As far as security, a Windows Server can be just as secure as a Linux one - it basically comes down to the user setting up the security and access levels appropriate, following best practices such as running server applications as service users, and setting up firewalls etc....but typically the largest security hole in any public facing service, is the programming itself.

[TheGhzGuy]

17 hours ago, Jarsky said:

If you're going to be making a big dynamic website like DeviantArt/Pinterest from scratch you're going to need to know your programming, and different languages are dependant on different code libraries, and therefore have different OS requirements.

 

If you're going to be writing it in .NET or ASP then you're going to want to run it in an IIS environment for best compatibility which would be on a Windows Server OS. If you're going to be using common web languages like Python and/or PHP then you can go for a Linux based OS.

 

It's really up to what you're writing the site in. As far as security, a Windows Server can be just as secure as a Linux one - it basically comes down to the user setting up the security and access levels appropriate, following best practices such as running server applications as service users, and setting up firewalls etc....but typically the largest security hole in any public facing service, is the programming itself.

I'll probably know Python better than anything else (but that's not saying very much). I don't know much about running servers, so I have no idea what an "IIS environment" is. I'll look into .NET and ASP and see which one I like more. Thank you!

[SpaceNugget]

On 2016-06-20 at 3:35 AM, TheGhzGuy said:

I'll probably know Python better than anything else (but that's not saying very much). I don't know much about running servers, so I have no idea what an "IIS environment" is. I'll look into .NET and ASP and see which one I like more. Thank you!

IIS is the Microsoft web server "Internet Information Services" you don't need to know anything about it. I strongly recommend against ASP.NET and there are no words to describe how bad developing in classic ASP is.

 

PHP is cheap and cheerful, and the full JavaScript stack is pretty fun although a little convoluted at times. django (Python web framework) and rails (Ruby) are both easy to learn and pretty widespread as well. As for building something the scale of pinterest, don't expect too much of yourself as you learn to program, its always better to set realistic goals and maybe surprise yourself than to set astronomical goals and be disappointed with a perfectly reasonable first attempt.

 

Good luck and have fun!

[leadeater]

On 6/20/2016 at 5:09 AM, Jarsky said:

It's really up to what you're writing the site in. As far as security, a Windows Server can be just as secure as a Linux one - it basically comes down to the user setting up the security and access levels appropriate, following best practices such as running server applications as service users, and setting up firewalls etc....but typically the largest security hole in any public facing service, is the programming itself.

So true, Windows being insecure and Linux being much more secure is just a myth that spreads like a super invasive airborne virus. Linux servers can be extremely unsecure if not setup correctly, just the same as Windows can. What we see is more Windows systems being compromised purely as it is more prevalent, for the same reason why we see so many wordpress breaches.

 

One of the largest reasons to use Linux for hosting websites is Microsoft licensing.

 

6 hours ago, WaxyMaxy said:

IIS is the Microsoft web server "Internet Information Services" you don't need to know anything about it. I strongly recommend against ASP.NET and there are no words to describe how bad developing in classic ASP is.

 

PHP is cheap and cheerful, and the full JavaScript stack is pretty fun although a little convoluted at times. django (Python web framework) and rails (Ruby) are both easy to learn and pretty widespread as well. As for building something the scale of pinterest, don't expect too much of yourself as you learn to program, its always better to set realistic goals and maybe surprise yourself than to set astronomical goals and be disappointed with a perfectly reasonable first attempt.

 

Good luck and have fun!

ASP.Net and classic ASP are much different beasts (just saying), both beasts non the less. Agree with not using it, unless you are creating a corporate integrated web application with hooks in to other Microsoft systems the list of reasons to not use it is very large and the list of reasons to use it is essentially zero.

[wraptor]

23 hours ago, leadeater said:

So true, Windows being insecure and Linux being much more secure is just a myth that spreads like a super invasive airborne virus. Linux servers can be extremely unsecure if not setup correctly, just the same as Windows can. What we see is more Windows systems being compromised purely as it is more prevalent, for the same reason why we see so many wordpress breaches.

 

One of the largest reasons to use Linux for hosting websites is Microsoft licensing.

 

ASP.Net and classic ASP are much different beasts (just saying), both beasts non the less. Agree with not using it, unless you are creating a corporate integrated web application with hooks in to other Microsoft systems the list of reasons to not use it is very large and the list of reasons to use it is essentially zero.

I'm using ASP.NET (v4.5.2 if you care :Þ) for all my web dev programs.
Purely because its possible to code with C# and PHP basically... sucks...
I don't like that slow language at all, I prefer ASP.NET above all

And I'll still use Windows Server for everything except for when I'm running an old machine as a Server (Linux uses less resources in general) or pfSense for my router. Linux is open-source which is good, but then again... I don't like linux.

There are a lot of reasons why to use PHP:
 - Cheap

 - Easy to use (Except for troubleshooting)

 - Really really really slow (Opinion)
 - Works on both windows and Linux.
 - Linux is a more stable platform (as of updates without reboots).

 

Reasons to use ASP.NET

 - Works on a whole framework of features, integrations and above all simplicity for bigger projects.
 - Faster (As of language optimalizations).

 - Safer (Opinion, though you guys have stated some good points out here)

 - Faster troubleshooting with simple full detailed error messages (if enabled).

Downsides for ASP.NET:
 - You need money to buy Windows Server (Although its comming out for Linux/already has 3th party programs to do so).
 - Site goes down when server needs a restart (Only if you are dumb enough to have 1 server instead of a failover cluster :Þ).

These are facts, I'm not a Windows fanboy. Linux has its advantages.
But I prefer a simple, fast monitoring and troubleshooting process without installing any 3th party software :Þ

 

[!!!]

For every poster:
Please only quote me to write facts, and if you do write opinions make shure to notify about this since other users might see that as a fact and go with it

[leadeater]

4 hours ago, tv15dsi said:

-snip-

It's sort of amusing since I really like C# and is my first choice but personally I'm not that much fan of ASP.Net, but then I also don't like PHP that much either. Most of my dislikes stem from me just not liking web development at all so yea... that's a thing .

 

While there are advantages to ASP.Net, for a small project with limited resources the cost I feel significantly outweighs everything else. There's also the whole legal issue of when you do and don't need CALs which for a novice is extremely complex to understand, although Microsoft did make this much easier since Server 2012 by removing the Web Edition and applying the same rights to Standard and Datacenter when running web workloads.

[SpaceNugget]

14 hours ago, leadeater said:

So true, Windows being insecure and Linux being much more secure is just a myth that spreads like a super invasive airborne virus. Linux servers can be extremely unsecure if not setup correctly, just the same as Windows can. What we see is more Windows systems being compromised purely as it is more prevalent, for the same reason why we see so many wordpress breaches.

 

One of the largest reasons to use Linux for hosting websites is Microsoft licensing.

 

ASP.Net and classic ASP are much different beasts (just saying), both beasts non the less. Agree with not using it, unless you are creating a corporate integrated web application with hooks in to other Microsoft systems the list of reasons to not use it is very large and the list of reasons to use it is essentially zero.

I mean I pointed out that they were different in my comment, I said ASP.NET was bad and classic ASP was the worst. I am currently working on a contract that involves maintaining a website that uses classic ASP. The language is terrible.

3 hours ago, tv15dsi said:

I'm using ASP.NET (v4.5.2 if you care :Þ) for all my web dev programs.
Purely because its possible to code with C# and PHP basically... sucks...
I don't like that slow language at all, I prefer ASP.NET above all

And I'll still use Windows Server for everything except for when I'm running an old machine as a Server (Linux uses less resources in general) or pfSense for my router. Linux is open-source which is good, but then again... I don't like linux.

There are a lot of reasons why to use PHP:
 - Cheap

 - Easy to use (Except for troubleshooting)

 - Really really really slow (Opinion)
 - Works on both windows and Linux.
 - Linux is a more stable platform (as of updates without reboots).

 

Reasons to use ASP.NET

 - Works on a whole framework of features, integrations and above all simplicity for bigger projects.
 - Faster (As of language optimalizations).

 - Safer (Opinion, though you guys have stated some good points out here)

 - Faster troubleshooting with simple full detailed error messages (if enabled).

Downsides for ASP.NET:
 - You need money to buy Windows Server (Although its comming out for Linux/already has 3th party programs to do so).
 - Site goes down when server needs a restart (Only if you are dumb enough to have 1 server instead of a failover cluster :Þ).

These are facts, I'm not a Windows fanboy. Linux has its advantages.
But I prefer a simple, fast monitoring and troubleshooting process without installing any 3th party software :Þ

 

[!!!]
Please only quote me to write facts, and if you do write opinions make shure to notify about this since other users might see that as a fact and go with it

 

PHP is no more difficult to troubleshoot than anything else. both languages have line by line debugging and full tracing for error reporting.

 

PHP will not be the limiting factor for speed in a web application, in fact many of the biggest and heavily used websites on the web run on PHP.

Security is almost completely independent of which server-side language you use. That has to do with the architecture of your application, not the language its written in.

 

In terms of frameworks, PHP is much more mature than ASP.NET, with the vast majority of the web running on PHP it has had many more hours and people thrown at creating frameworks for it. Wordpress, Drupal, Laravel, Cake, Yii, Symphony2, etc.

 

The biggest advantage to PHP is  how everyone uses it. Almost any shared hosting provider you can find supports PHP.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, WaxyMaxy said:

I mean I pointed out that they were different in my comment, I said ASP.NET was bad and classic ASP was the worst. I am currently working on a contract that involves maintaining a website that uses classic ASP. The language is terrible.

Don't worry, was just jumping on the ASP hate train , I knew what you meant. However if I was going to do anything it would be using ASP.Net and not PHP, but would be entirely down to the Microsoft integration and C# side of things since it would be internal only for infrastructure management type tasks. 

[wraptor]

9 hours ago, WaxyMaxy said:

I mean I pointed out that they were different in my comment, I said ASP.NET was bad and classic ASP was the worst. I am currently working on a contract that involves maintaining a website that uses classic ASP. The language is terrible.

 

PHP is no more difficult to troubleshoot than anything else. both languages have line by line debugging and full tracing for error reporting.

 

PHP will not be the limiting factor for speed in a web application, in fact many of the biggest and heavily used websites on the web run on PHP.

Security is almost completely independent of which server-side language you use. That has to do with the architecture of your application, not the language its written in.

I was trying to make a point:
If people say PHP I think about these horrible CMSs like Drupal, Wordpress etc.
These aren't optimized at all, they leave css for the main theme though you selected a new one which has everything the main css has but modified.
That kind of stuff.
I've found PHP harder to troubleshoot since it just said where the error happend, nothing else (At least last time I ever used PHP ages ago), but that might be me :Þ
 

9 hours ago, WaxyMaxy said:

In terms of frameworks, PHP is much more mature than ASP.NET, with the vast majority of the web running on PHP it has had many more hours and people thrown at creating frameworks for it. Wordpress, Drupal, Laravel, Cake, Yii, Symphony2, etc.

 

The biggest advantage to PHP is  how everyone uses it. Almost any shared hosting provider you can find supports PHP.

Calling PHP more used doesn't make it better :Þ
Its like Apple, they overprice their products (Fact, its for premium-isch stuff :Þ), but that doesn't mean the hardware is better dan a $750 ASUS laptop (with the same specs ofc.) for instance.

 

The reason why most shared hosting providers support PHP is because its free to host on their Linux machines. And also because hosting systems like "DirectAdmin" don't support ASP.NET, which could be possible with Microsoft aiming at developement for cross platform devices.

It requires them to setup Windows Server in order for ASP.NET to be possible to host, which costs them a lot.

[SpaceNugget]

12 hours ago, tv15dsi said:

I was trying to make a point:
If people say PHP I think about these horrible CMSs like Drupal, Wordpress etc.
These aren't optimized at all, they leave css for the main theme though you selected a new one which has everything the main css has but modified.
That kind of stuff.
I've found PHP harder to troubleshoot since it just said where the error happend, nothing else (At least last time I ever used PHP ages ago), but that might be me :Þ
 

Calling PHP more used doesn't make it better :Þ
Its like Apple, they overprice their products (Fact, its for premium-isch stuff :Þ), but that doesn't mean the hardware is better dan a $750 ASUS laptop (with the same specs ofc.) for instance.

 

The reason why most shared hosting providers support PHP is because its free to host on their Linux machines. And also because hosting systems like "DirectAdmin" don't support ASP.NET, which could be possible with Microsoft aiming at developement for cross platform devices.

It requires them to setup Windows Server in order for ASP.NET to be possible to host, which costs them a lot.

More people use PHP frameworks and CMS's like wordpress/drupal/laravel because they have been developed more and as result they are more polished.

 

They are not horrible at all. They are a great base for extensive custom development because you don't have to waste time reinventing the wheel (users, permissions, publishing workflows) and can more immediately focus on the development that actually matters to your client. They are more used for reason, and that is because they simply make sense for a significant portion of web development projects.

 

There is no reason that you can't make a great website with a PHP CMS.

 

https://www.drupal.com/showcases

https://wordpress.com/notable-users/

 

And its not PHP's fault that you didn't have the correct error logging settings =P its set to not show errors by default as a security measure but its as simple as changing a line in the config file to get it to spit all the errors and warnings you can dream of.

[wraptor]

3 minutes ago, WaxyMaxy said:

More people use PHP frameworks and CMS's like wordpress/drupal/laravel because they have been developed more and as result they are more polished.

 

They are not horrible at all. They are a great base for extensive custom development because you don't have to waste time reinventing the wheel (users, permissions, publishing workflows) and can more immediately focus on the development that actually matters to your client. They are more used for reason, and that is because they simply make sense for a significant portion of web development projects.

 

There is no reason that you can't make a great website with a PHP CMS.

 

https://www.drupal.com/showcases

https://wordpress.com/notable-users/

 

And its not PHP's fault that you didn't have the correct error logging settings =P its set to not show errors by default as a security measure but its as simple as changing a line in the config file to get it to spit all the errors and warnings you can dream of.

Its still horrible to my eyes