Linux channel but different. Hear me out.

[atxcyclist]

On 6/1/2024 at 12:48 AM, Brian McKee said:

Outside of some proprietary hardware someone might happen to own not being supported by the company, what pain points is the average person actually gonna encounter with Linux?

No matter how ‘user-friendly’ a distro is, there will eventually be a situation that requires using commands in Terminal. And yes, even though someone has to purposefully sudo themselves into a situation where they can mess something up, you need that level of access just about any time you’re needing to be in Terminal.

 

Casual Windows users never need the Command Prompt, MacOS users never need Terminal, most people would not want to. Now, if anyone offered a flavor of x86 UNIX for the masses that was polished like MacOS was, maybe. 
 

The other thing is that walking someone through fixing an issue in a Windows or MacOS release is relatively easy, because there are major releases and they run for long periods of time. In contrast, there are countless continuously-rolling releases of countless Linux distros, so you’re mostly in uncharted territory as a tech-support person, or you’re having someone go into Terminal.
 

The expectation from the tech-support side is that if you’re savvy enough to daily Linux, you meant to and you’re capable, so ‘average’ users don’t.

[Brian McKee]

6 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

No matter how ‘user-friendly’ a distro is, there will eventually be a situation that requires using commands in Terminal. And yes, even though someone has to purposefully sudo themselves into a situation where they can mess something up, you need that level of access just about any time you’re needing to be in Terminal.

Give an example then. If you can't your argument is in bad faith, sorry. As far as I'm aware a KDE or GNOME included OS can do anything you'd want without terminal. The only time I've needed terminal is if I wanted to use terminal based programs (duh) or if I wanted to install custom community drivers. And wouldn't you guess it, when you do stuff like that in windows or mac os you also need command prompt/terminal, shocker.

 

So please, if you're going to make this tired argument about how the average person is just THRUST into terminal by force, please give some examples of unavoidable instances.

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

Can I get nVidia drivers for my 3070 running on Linux? Personally speaking, that would be highly relevant for me since I nowadays use my PC mostly for gaming and browsing, no longer real office work.

I don't know, so I just googled "linux mint install nvidia drivers""

First result is from the Linux Mint Forums, post is from October 2023, they suggest to install under "Menu - Drivers". However, the next user points out that the Driver Manager is not available in the version of Mint the OP uses and that they have to use the terminal. Discussion then is mostly on giving OP the correct line for the terminal.

 

Second Result, sounds much better and they show how to install it via GUI. Past that, the first section on troubleshooting is already the familiar sight of terminals, commands and editing obscure text files.

 

Third result is useless since the GPU in question is not supported.

 

I literally do not know whether Mint is KDE or GNOME based, or whether this is representative, but for me this is the experience when I start actively looking into switching over to e.g. Linux Mint.

 

[Brian McKee]

29 minutes ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Can I get nVidia drivers for my 3070 running on Linux? Personally speaking, that would be highly relevant for me since I nowadays use my PC mostly for gaming and browsing, no longer real office work.

I don't know, so I just googled "linux mint install nvidia drivers""

First result is from the Linux Mint Forums, post is from October 2023, they suggest to install under "Menu - Drivers". However, the next user points out that the Driver Manager is not available in the version of Mint the OP uses and that they have to use the terminal. Discussion then is mostly on giving OP the correct line for the terminal.

 

Second Result, sounds much better and they show how to install it via GUI. Past that, the first section on troubleshooting is already the familiar sight of terminals, commands and editing obscure text files.

 

Third result is useless since the GPU in question is not supported.

 

I literally do not know whether Mint is KDE or GNOME based, or whether this is representative, but for me this is the experience when I start actively looking into switching over to e.g. Linux Mint.

 

If only you guys actually clicked the links huh? Linux Mint and other similar distros have had the ability to install drivers without terminal for years. And if you're running intel or AMD you don't even need to do anything! They're just there!

 

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

1 minute ago, Brian McKee said:

If only you guys actually clicked the links huh? Linux Mint and other similar distros have had the ability to install drivers without terminal for years.

If only you actually read the summary I provided and the next three comments in that thread:

[Brian McKee]

2 minutes ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

If only you actually read the summary I provided and the next three comments in that thread:

Must you use LMDE? Linux Mint Debian Edition is a pet project from the Mint team just in case they need to move away from Ubuntu. Using regular Linux Mint or any of the other Ubuntu based Mint versions will have everything you need. When you search up Linux Mint you will not accidentally download LMDE.

[Erioch]

The evangelist is this thread is the perfect reason a lot of people don't use Linux.  They're so angry and condescending for some reason.

[Brian McKee]

4 minutes ago, Erioch said:

The evangelist is this thread is the perfect reason a lot of people don't use Linux.  They're so angry and condescending for some reason.

Yeah it's real fun to listen to the same incorrect nonsense over and over. Maybe if you want to make an argument about something don't regurgitate the same tired rhetoric that was relevant a decade ago. It's like people who bitch to this day about how terrible AMD drivers are.

 

I couldn't care less if you use Linux or not, people have different machines for different use cases. People have lives to live and things to do. Just don't fucking make shit up. The real evangelists are the people who are afraid that other ways of using a computer are not as hostile as they think they are for some reason. Like they'd catch fire if they sat at a mac for 10 mins.

[atxcyclist]

2 hours ago, Brian McKee said:

Give an example then. If you can't your argument is in bad faith, sorry. As far as I'm aware a KDE or GNOME included OS can do anything you'd want without terminal. The only time I've needed terminal is if I wanted to use terminal based programs (duh) or if I wanted to install custom community drivers. And wouldn't you guess it, when you do stuff like that in windows or mac os you also need command prompt/terminal, shocker.

 

So please, if you're going to make this tired argument about how the average person is just THRUST into terminal by force, please give some examples of unavoidable instances.

The fact that every time I’ve used Linux, some configuration issue has required Terminal commands. I’ve not needed Command Prompt for a driver install since Windows XP, and I cannot ever remember a time needing Terminal on a Mac for a driver install, even back to System 8 in the 90’s. 
 

I’m making this argument because it’s well known, no objective Linux user would deny that it’s likely Terminal use will be required at some point; You’re just ignoring reality here. I don’t need to justify common knowledge of Linux.

 

The fact remains: Windows 10/11 and MacOS are extremely simple for a completely novice user, and Linux isn’t necessarily. 

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

4 minutes ago, Brian McKee said:

Must you use LMDE?

Brother, I didn't even know that two versions of Mint existed before this. But now if I want to switch to Mint I have to make sure I switch to the "correct" Mint.

 

How is something like "oh, that is the weird Mint, please ignore" help people who get told "just use Mint"? This is the reason why stuff like distros and all the tinkering has the reputation it has: it is real and utterly confusing for non-technical people or even technical people who just no longer want Windows.

 

I don't have to use LMDE, but when I search for how I would install drivers for my GPU on Linux Mint, this is literally the first answer I got. And instead of answering stuff, it just raised the question: "Oh, so there are two Mints now?!"

WTF?!

[Brian McKee]

1 minute ago, atxcyclist said:

The fact that every time I’ve used Linux, some configuration issue has required Terminal commands. I’ve not needed Command Prompt for a driver install since Windows XP, and I cannot ever remember a time needing Terminal on a Mac for a driver install, even back to System 8 in the 90’s. 

 

And that's great for you! But the amount of times I've had to dig into registries or command prompt to fix some random esoteric issue with Windows over the years is deep in the double digits. Maybe it's how I use windows, I'm not the standard user after all.

 

 

Quote

 

I’m making this argument because it’s well known, no objective Linux user would deny that it’s likely Terminal use will be required at some point; You’re just ignoring reality here, I don’t need to justify well-known facets of Linux to you.

It's good to use terminal just like it's good to use command prompt sometimes. Because some issues are just easier with it. You'll just sometimes have a console utility or you just don't want to dig through inane amounts of file system when you know exactly where something is.

[Erioch]

4 minutes ago, Brian McKee said:

I couldn't care less if you use Linux or not

I think you do, though.  It's obvious you do.  So angry.

[Brian McKee]

1 minute ago, Erioch said:

I think you do, though.  It's obvious you do.  So angry.

Considering I'm posting this on my WIndows rig, no, I really don't.

[atxcyclist]

11 minutes ago, Brian McKee said:

I couldn't care less if you use Linux or not, people have different machines for different use cases. People have lives to live and things to do. Just don't fucking make shit up.

Nothing says “I couldn’t care less” like flaming people and ignoring facts.

[Brian McKee]

5 minutes ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Brother, I didn't even know that two versions of Mint existed before this. But now if I want to switch to Mint I have to make sure I switch to the "correct" Mint.

 

How is something like "oh, that is the weird Mint, please ignore" help people who get told "just use Mint"? This is the reason why stuff like distros and all the tinkering has the reputation it has: it is real and utterly confusing for non-technical people or even technical people who just no longer want Windows.

 

I don't have to use LMDE, but when I search for how I would install drivers for my GPU on Linux Mint, this is literally the first answer I got. And instead of answering stuff, it just raised the question: "Oh, so there are two Mints now?!"

WTF?!

It seems like if you're cognizant enough to search up "How to install Nvidia drivers on Linux Mint" before you even download or test out the operating system then you've probably got the wherewithal to look up "what is linux mint LMDE?" and you'd very quickly find out it's not the standard version of the OS. Anyone who didn't do this search before hand wouldn't even know LMDE exists, and it wouldn't matter because when you search to download Mint it's not even on the standard Mint download page.

 

Stop manufacturing issues when there isn't one.

[Brian McKee]

Just now, atxcyclist said:

Nothing says “I couldn’t care less” than flaming people and ignoring facts.

If you think I'm flaming you then feel free to report me.

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

1 minute ago, Brian McKee said:

It seems like if you're cognizant enough to search up "How to install Nvidia drivers on Linux Mint" before you even download or test out the operating system then you've probably got the wherewithal to look up "what is linux mint LMDE?" and you'd very quickly find out it's not the standard version of the OS. Anyone who didn't do this search before hand wouldn't even know LMDE exists, and it wouldn't matter because when you search to download Mint it's not even on the standard Mint download page.

 

Stop manufacturing issues when there isn't one.

This whole discussion came up from the question whether regular people could easily switch over to Linux, and that they would likely not put too much thought into this.

So the fact how much thought or preparation I would put in is not relevant, it was merely an example for how someone, who just installed some version of Linux they found, might want to install a GPU. I used myself here as an example because I was actually interested in how this would go.

 

And what do we find? Apparently you can install the wrong Mint, if you don't pay attention. However, you earlier stated most people would just pick Ubuntu or Mint, so I'd say there is at least a chance for these people not realizing that LMDE Mint is the wrong Mint in this case.

 

So I would call this an issue.

 

On 6/1/2024 at 8:26 PM, Brian McKee said:

I don't agree. The mere act of going on a forum to ask which distro to use is in of itself "interested" in Linux. Most people who just would switch without putting much thought into it will just pick the distro they've heard about, which most times will just be Ubuntu or Mint. This choice paralysis only exists when you're deeper than the average.

[atxcyclist]

10 minutes ago, Brian McKee said:

And that's great for you! But the amount of times I've had to dig into registries or command prompt to fix some random esoteric issue with Windows over the years is deep in the double digits. Maybe it's how I use windows, I'm not the standard user after all.

 

 

It's good to use terminal just like it's good to use command prompt sometimes. Because some issues are just easier with it. You'll just sometimes have a console utility or you just don't want to dig through inane amounts of file system when you know exactly where something is.

Unless you break something in Windows or MacOS you never need Command Prompt or Terminal, there are no utilities a common user will ever need that are only accessible through a console in either OS. 
 

The thing I’m pointing to here, is that common users do not use Linux, it’s more complicated than most of them would ever want to deal with. The only people I even know that use Linux every day are software developers, because they are comfortable dealing with problems in a Terminal interface. 

[Brian McKee]

1 minute ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

This whole discussion came up from the question whether regular people could easily switch over to Linux, and that they would likely not put too much thought into this.

So the fact how much thought or preparation I would put in is not relevant, it was merely an example for how someone, who just installed some version of Linux they found, might want to install a GPU. I used myself here as an example because I was actually interested in how this would go.

 

And what do we find? Apparently you can install the wrong Mint, if you don't pay attention. However, you earlier stated most people would just pick Ubuntu or Mint, so I'd say there is at least a chance for these people not realizing that LMDE Mint is the wrong Mint in this case.

 

So I would call this an issue.

 

I don't understand your problem. If they installed regular Mint, and they were looking up how to install nvidia drivers for their future card, they'd quite clearly see from the first post that they do in fact have driver manager.

[Brian McKee]

2 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

Unless you break something in Windows or MacOS you never need Command Prompt or Terminal, there are no utilities a common user will ever need that are only accessible through a console in either OS. 
 

The thing I’m pointing to here, is that common users do not use Linux, it’s more complicated than most of them would ever want to deal with. The only people I even know that use Linux every day are software developers, because they are comfortable dealing with problems in a Terminal interface. 

And I'm pointing out that common users can do everything they need to do in Linux without ever touching a terminal. You've yet to give me an example to the contrary. In fact it's sometimes easier, have you tried dealing with legacy printer or scanner drivers in Windows? It just works in Linux.

[atxcyclist]

9 minutes ago, Brian McKee said:

If you think I'm flaming you then feel free to report me.

You’re getting very bent-out-of-shape over this discussion, if you really don’t care then you shouldn’t invest yourself so heavily into defending Linux use.

[Brian McKee]

Just now, atxcyclist said:

You’re getting very bent-out-of-shape over this discussion, if you really don’t care then you shouldn’t invest yourself so heavily into defending Linux use.

Oh I care that you guys make shit up. I just don't care what your OS of choice is. Again, if you think I've gone too far, please report me.

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

1 minute ago, Brian McKee said:

I don't understand your problem. If they installed regular Mint, and they were looking up how to install nvidia drivers for their future card, they'd quite clearly see from the first post that they do in fact have driver manager.

My problem is that the whole experience of switching to Linux is not friendly for beginners at all.

Yes, you can make install media super quickly and easily (I tried it a bunch of times in the past) and you can also use a running and well configured machine without issues.

 

However, getting there is half luck, half a steep learning process. First you have to realize that there are different brands or flavors of Linux; you have to learn a lot more jargon not to use Linux, but to just read the discussion about it.

You have be aware of things you never had to worry about under Windows (for better or for worse), like drivers being not made for your flavor of Linux, or you having accidentally installed the "wrong" Mint because someone might have just thought "Mint = Mint, right?".

 

So even then if someone were to actually do the smart thing and start by preparing, instead of getting answers, they would be getting also would be getting more and more questions.

 

What is LMDE Mint vs Ubuntu Mint? I don't know, I could probably figure this out in 10 or 15 minutes of googling. But how many more questions will I have then? If Mint is not even Mint, maybe I should stay with PopOS? Or Ubuntu itself?

 

These type of experiences are points of attrition for anyone for whom tinkering with computers or their OS is not part of the joy. People who just want to use the thing for work, some browsing etc. already need to navigate this stuff before they can even start actually using and experiencing it.

 

I would think that is why so many people argue for a "good enough and universally agreed upon" baseline or go-to Linux Distro: Simple default answers for those issues, instead of raising more questions than answers.

 

The fact that this is not the case is my problem here.

[atxcyclist]

18 minutes ago, Brian McKee said:

And I'm pointing out that common users can do everything they need to do in Linux without ever touching a terminal. You've yet to give me an example to the contrary. In fact it's sometimes easier, have you tried dealing with legacy printer or scanner drivers in Windows? It just works in Linux.

I’m not going to roadmap some Linux problem I’ve had in the past, I don’t really need to. I’ve had to manually configure drivers and configuration in Terminal, many people have done it, and it’s well-known that it is sometimes a necessity.

 

Just because an ancient pen plotter or a scanner with a centronics parallel cable interface are still supported in Linux, doesn’t make that functionality useful to most people. That falls well outside of the common user, even my grandparents don’t use dot-matrix printers anymore.

[Brian McKee]

2 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

I’m not going to roadmap some Linux problem I’ve had in the past, I don’t really need to. I’ve had to manually configure drivers and configuration in Terminal, many people have done it, and it’s well-known that it is sometimes a necessity.

Hey! I've had to manually wipe a drive in command prompt while installing windows 10 one time because it would otherwise refuse to install. I even have a thread about it on this very forum! Almost like you can always run into problems on any OS. But hey if you got no examples then we're done here. Nice talking to you.