BD PROCHOT issue (performance issues in game)

[unclewebb]

3 hours ago, Why-T said:

that's weird right

Not that weird. Many Intel computers disable Turbo Boost when you are in the BIOS and while first booting up. My Asus desktop motherboard provides an option in the BIOS so a user can decide if they want Turbo Boost enabled or not while in the BIOS. I leave this enabled. In theory it should result in a faster startup time. 

 

10 hours ago, Why-T said:

a stupid dell software interfering with everything

You have seen the light. Dell engineering has been hard at work creating new features. When they work, great. When these new features are not well thought out or full of bugs, you are left with a CPU that struggles to run at 1300 MHz during a game when it should be running at 4000 MHz. All of the dead wood at Dell should be fired. The money saved could be used to upgrade the heatsinks and fans they use.

 

If it was my laptop, I would try to uninstall the Dell Power Manager software. Sometimes that is not possible. The various throttling schemes that Dell has decided to enable are really not necessary. There would be no need for the bizarre BD PROCHOT throttling that your laptop uses if Dell had used a bigger heatsink and included a simple power slider in the Dell Power Manager software. 

 

Good luck with your Dell. 

[Why-T]

19 hours ago, unclewebb said:

Not that weird. Many Intel computers disable Turbo Boost when you are in the BIOS and while first booting up. My Asus desktop motherboard provides an option in the BIOS so a user can decide if they want Turbo Boost enabled or not while in the BIOS. I leave this enabled. In theory it should result in a faster startup time. 

 

You have seen the light. Dell engineering has been hard at work creating new features. When they work, great. When these new features are not well thought out or full of bugs, you are left with a CPU that struggles to run at 1300 MHz during a game when it should be running at 4000 MHz. All of the dead wood at Dell should be fired. The money saved could be used to upgrade the heatsinks and fans they use.

 

If it was my laptop, I would try to uninstall the Dell Power Manager software. Sometimes that is not possible. The various throttling schemes that Dell has decided to enable are really not necessary. There would be no need for the bizarre BD PROCHOT throttling that your laptop uses if Dell had used a bigger heatsink and included a simple power slider in the Dell Power Manager software. 

 

Good luck with your Dell. 

well , check this out https://www.dell.com/community/en/conversations/inspiron/dell-g15-gpu-and-cpu-low-utilization-while-gaming/647f952df4ccf8a8de7a6f39?page=2 , it seems that people have the same issue and dont know it cpu throttling , someone reported that changing the ram fixed it mm weird ... maybe the BD PROCHOT is related to ram temp ??? is there any way to check ram temps ?

edit : thats probably not the case...

Edited January 6 by Why-T

[Why-T]

update , i fixed it (kinda)! the cpu doesnt throttle to 800mhz anymore (it throttles still to ~2200mhz ~ 3000mhz) , and without disabling the BD PROCHOT in throttle stop , i found something in regestry editor in Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\intelppm i changed the start value from 3 to 4 , apparently some users reported that this is related to OEM manufacturers setting it up such as DELL HP LENOVO , i found that the ALIENWARE Command Center is responsible of the intelppm setting , thats why when i set the value of the intelppm to 4 the Alienware Command Center freaks out and doesnt diplay appropriate values  , what are your insights ? Could it stop the throttling if the intel ppm is disabled from system32 using cmd in pre boot troubleshooting? @unclewebb

[unclewebb]

4 hours ago, Why-T said:

what are your insights ?

I would not touch the IntelPPM Start value. 

 

If using ThrottleStop to disable BD PROCHOT fully solves your throttling problem, why not just use that?

 

19 hours ago, Why-T said:

maybe the BD PROCHOT is related to ram temp

I doubt it but anything is possible. 

 

19 hours ago, Why-T said:

it seems that people have the same issue and dont know it cpu throttling

The Dell forums is not a place for open discussion. They banned me from their forums many years ago for telling their customers what they can do to solve these throttling problems. Talking about using ThrottleStop to try and run your laptop at its full rated speed is frowned upon on the Dell forums.

 

Your Dell laptop is doing exactly what Dell designed it to do. Throttle.

[Why-T]

2 hours ago, unclewebb said:

If using ThrottleStop to disable BD PROCHOT fully solves your throttling problem, why not just use that?

@unclewebb Maybe im just too paranoid about BD PROCHOT causing some long term damage ... , so therefore put yourself in my shoes , what would you do . btw i have never opened the laptop to do any maintenance on it , im thinking about cleaning it up today , please give me your opinion as honest and clear about whats the view on this from your perspective . And thank you so much for spending time trying to walk me through this . i just didnt know what happened for the laptop to start losing performance out of the blue for no reason .

[Kilrah]

2 hours ago, Why-T said:

Maybe im just too paranoid about BD PROCHOT causing some long term damage ... , so therefore put yourself in my shoes , what would you do .

BD PROCHOT or other, anything increasing performance is on the same kind of level in terms of risk, going past how it was designed to operate.

 

What sucks is that it was designed to operate poorly, and there's not much that can be changed about that while staying "in spec".

[Why-T]

@unclewebb

finally i fixed it no more bd prochot , i did some deep research into the firmware , and i found out that the dell G series are linked with alienware series firmware where , the G mode (high performance mode with G button) actually boosts the GPU wattage and lowers the CPU wattage (the laptop designed gpu power which is in my case the RTX 3060 on this laptop is only designed for 90w to keep the cpu at 60w) but when i game with G button enabled and set to rapid cool the gpu wattage increases to 115w ,which forces then the cpu to throttle to give power to the gpu whis is stupid design . i managed to change the G button fonction to performance rather than rapid cool , which enables the gpu to reach its designed limit (90w) and the cpu stays stable at around 45-60w . here are some screenshots to help you understand the matter , i tested the load using games and the msi kombuster software i found it super useful cause it can stress both gpu and cpu at the same time , NOW that i know this stupid design , i feel more comfortable that this is not caused by faulty sensors , its some firmware issue cause of dell not giving enough time to develop an independent firmware for each laptop . keep in mind there is still alot of throttling schemes on the table , Thank you Dell -_-  !!!  (Hopefully they fix this with future updates)  anyways here are some links that i found useful in my research . 

https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-gu/000131532/resolving-a-high-temperature-or-overheating-issue-on-alienware-notebooks-purchased-after-2016
 

https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000189990/alienware-m15-ryzen-edition-r5-thermal-measurement-guidance

do you find this adequate tuning for what dell did ?


 

[unclewebb]

The 10870H has a 45W TDP rating. Your screenshot shows PL1 throttling at 45W. I am not a fan of any throttling but at least that is reasonable. BD PROCHOT throttling or any other throttling that forces a 10870H to run at only 1300 MHz when playing a game is not reasonable at all. 

 

3 hours ago, Why-T said:

stupid design

That I agree with. 

 

3 hours ago, Why-T said:

keep in mind there is still a lot of throttling schemes on the table

Dell laptops with throttling issues have been an on going thing for the last 15+ years. Back then performance used to drop down to as little as 10% of the rated performance. It was brutal. The throttling was so bad that I am surprised that there were never any major class action lawsuits for the performance issues that Dell was creating. 

 

3 hours ago, Why-T said:

Hopefully they fix this with future updates

Don't hold your breath waiting for any future updates.  

 

Good to see that you found a way to obtain a reasonable level of performance and now have a better understanding of the issues. An honest company should be more upfront and willing to admit that running both the CPU and GPU at full power and full speed at the same time is not allowed. 

[Why-T]

4 hours ago, unclewebb said:

The 10870H has a 45W TDP rating. Your screenshot shows PL1 throttling at 45W. I am not a fan of any throttling but at least that is reasonable. BD PROCHOT throttling or any other throttling that forces a 10870H to run at only 1300 MHz when playing a game is not reasonable at all. 

 

That I agree with. 

 

Dell laptops with throttling issues have been an on going thing for the last 15+ years. Back then performance used to drop down to as little as 10% of the rated performance. It was brutal. The throttling was so bad that I am surprised that there were never any major class action lawsuits for the performance issues that Dell was creating. 

 

Don't hold your breath waiting for any future updates.  

 

Good to see that you found a way to obtain a reasonable level of performance and now have a better understanding of the issues. An honest company should be more upfront and willing to admit that running both the CPU and GPU at full power and full speed at the same time is not allowed. 

@unclewebb i have one last question , what is this gpu BD PROCHOT in this screenshot ? i noticed that the cpu is fine now and doesnt throttle below ~3.4ghz , but the gpu started acting funny , i did notice some dips here and there but they are not as bad as before ... any help with this one ?

[unclewebb]

15 minutes ago, Why-T said:

gpu BD PROCHOT

That refers to the Intel GPU which you are not using when playing games. Clear BD PROCHOT in ThrottleStop if this concerns you.

 

Disable Thermal Velocity Boost in the BIOS or in the FIVR window if you do not like seeing TVB in Limit Reasons. This supposed boost feature is just the marketing folks creating a nice name for a throttling feature. 

[Why-T]

16 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

That refers to the Intel GPU which you are not using when playing games. Clear BD PROCHOT in ThrottleStop if this concerns you.

 

Disable Thermal Velocity Boost in the BIOS or in the FIVR window if you do not like seeing TVB in Limit Reasons. This supposed boost feature is just the marketing folks creating a nice name for a throttling feature. 

may i provide you with some logs to see , cuz im pretty sure that its not the intel gpu , since the intel gpu is disabled cause im using the NVIDIA gpu directly with an external monitor ... (correct me if iam wrong)

[Why-T]

@unclewebb what do you think about these logs ? 

2024-01-07.txt

[unclewebb]

13 minutes ago, Why-T said:

may i provide you with some logs to see

Sure

 

14 minutes ago, Why-T said:

im pretty sure that its not the intel gpu

I know that IS the Intel GPU. Your laptop may not use this but it still physically exists within the CPU package. If it is not being used, it is not important if it throttles or not.

[unclewebb]

6 minutes ago, Why-T said:

what do you think about these logs ? 

What am I looking far? There is lots of TVB throttling at the start of the log file followed by PL1 power limit throttling at 45W.

[Why-T]

2 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

What am I looking far? There is lots of TVB throttling at the start of the log file followed by PL1 power limit throttling at 45W.

well the only thing thats stopping my pc from being as perfect as it was , is its dipping of performance in one and only game , "THE FINALS" . im recording some logs now to show you what is happening hopefully we can get to the bottom of the line of it . and again Thank you so much for your help . without you i wouldn't do Sh*t ! xD

edit : btw the game is running on unreal engine 5

Edited January 7 by Why-T

[unclewebb]

4 minutes ago, Why-T said:

recording some logs

The log you posted shows the CPU starts at 4100 MHz, drops to 4000 MHz when TVB throttling starts and slows down to 3200 MHz so long term, it does not exceed the 45W power limit. That is a lot of lost CPU performance. 

[Why-T]

3 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

The log you posted shows the CPU starts at 4100 MHz, drops to 4000 MHz when TVB throttling starts and slows down to 3200 MHz so long term, it does not exceed the 45W power limit. That is a lot of lost CPU performance. 

here it is , i tried to do my very basic reading of the logs , and i noticed BD PROCHOT , but the limits reason in TS doesnt show no BD PROCHOT.....

2024-01-07.txt 2024-01-08.txt

[unclewebb]

14 minutes ago, Why-T said:

BD PROCHOT

I believe this is being rapidly cycled on and off. It is possible that the BD PROCHOT flag that usually lights up in ThrottleStop is deliberately being cleared. They might have forgot to also clear this flag for the Intel GPU. 

 

Is HWiNFO running? That can also clear the throttling information that is stored in the CPU package. 

 

The log file shows the CPU running at half speed. 2000 MHz vs 4000 MHz confirms throttling. Is Speed Shift still checked in the TPL window? 

 

Clear BD PROCHOT and run the same test again.

[Why-T]

Just now, unclewebb said:

I believe this is being rapidly cycled on and off. It is possible that the BD PROCHOT flag that usually lights up in ThrottleStop is deliberately being cleared. They might have forgot to also clear this flag for the Intel GPU. 

 

The log file shows the CPU running at half speed. 2000 MHz vs 4000 MHz confirms throttling. Is Speed Shift still checked in the TPL window? 

 

Clear BD PROCHOT and run the same test again.

there is no 800mhz throttling though right ? 
 

 

1 minute ago, unclewebb said:

Is Speed Shift still checked in the TPL window? 

no it was not , since i forgot to tell you , yesterday i cleaned the laptop and at the same time i did perform a clean windows install , i redownloaded TS but i still have a backup of the .ini file . so i will check it and redo the test...

 

 

4 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

Clear BD PROCHOT and run the same test again.

im recording new logs

[unclewebb]

4 minutes ago, Why-T said:

there is no 800mhz throttling though

BD PROCHOT is constantly throttling the CPU to 800 MHz but maybe for only 50 milliseconds at a time, hoping that most monitoring software will not notice. It is hurting performance. Do the right thing and leave it disabled. 

[Why-T]

14 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

BD PROCHOT is constantly throttling the CPU to 800 MHz but maybe for only 50 milliseconds at a time, hoping that most monitoring software will not notice. It is hurting performance. Do the right thing and leave it disabled. 

here are the logs

logs with BD PROCHOT checked and intel speed shift unchecked.txt logs with BD PROCHOT unchecked and intel speed shift checked.txt

[Why-T]

15 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

BD PROCHOT is constantly throttling the CPU to 800 MHz but maybe for only 50 milliseconds at a time, hoping that most monitoring software will not notice. It is hurting performance. Do the right thing and leave it disabled. 

but why does it happen only in this game ? and im not able to recreate it in other games and benchmarks like MSI Kombuster for example ? 
the conditions are identical , the cpu usage and gpu usage in MSI Kombuster are exactly the same if not more than "THE FINALS" , yet "THE FINALS" throttles my cpu and other programs dont ? is that possible ? 

[unclewebb]

56 minutes ago, Why-T said:

why does it happen only in this game ?

I do not know why. I only know that BD PROCHOT throttling is definitely happening. 

 

58 minutes ago, Why-T said:

MSI Kombuster

Some popular testing programs might be on some sort of white list so those programs do not trigger any throttling. 

 

You have provided more than enough evidence to confirm that BD PROCHOT throttling is being rapidly cycled on and off. It is trying to stay under the radar but that is not working. ThrottleStop shows the CPU performance hit.

[Why-T]

Just now, unclewebb said:

I do not know why. I only know that BD PROCHOT throttling is definitely happening. 

 

Some popular testing programs might be on some sort of white list so those programs do not trigger any throttling. 

 

You have provided more than enough evidence to confirm that BD PROCHOT throttling is being rapidly cycled on and off. It is trying to stay under the radar but that is not working. ThrottleStop shows the CPU performance hit.

therfore , from all the information provided , do you think disabling bd prochot in my case would make any long term damage ? 

 

 

2 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

Some popular testing programs might be on some sort of white list so those programs do not trigger any throttling. 

what do you mean by whitelist in that case ? doesn't BDPRO happen on ECU level ? or is it something software related triggering it ?

could it be anti cheat systems ?

[Why-T]

9 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

Some popular testing programs

not only testing programs , games like "FOR HONOR" , "GTA V" etc... doesnt trigger it .


anti cheats typically use kernel mode driver This acts so deep in the system, that it can directly access ANY hardware component. right ?
 

Edited January 8 by Why-T