Question about 970 EVO

[Code-ER]

Hey all. Thoughts on Samsung 970 EVO NVME? Anybody have problems with them? This is going to be a bit of a long post.

 

Is this a me problem or are these drives just all shit? Every time a client comes in with problems it always seems to be these drives. Currently my latest problems with them are suddenly the computer will not boot to the Windows install on the drive. It doesn't matter if it's a fresh install of Windows, it refuses to boot from a 970 Evo. I have other Silicon Power NVME and WD NVME and both always work fine.

For this case, my client was using a 2TB HDD as his C: drive. He had purchased the 970 EVO and installed it into his system. He was using it as a storage drive which it was detected as a storage drive. Customer wanted me to fresh install Windows onto his NVME since his PC was slow as hell given it was booting from an old HDD. I have been trying to get Windows to boot from his 970EVO on his PC since.
 

I am working with a MSI Z490 Gaming Plus motherboard. I also have an NVME drive adapter and a Framework laptop for testing.

I have updated the BIOS to the latest version. MSI Click BIOS certainly leaves much to be desired.

 

The thing I don't understand is that the 970EVO will read on my adapter and boot to windows on the Framework I do not change any settings and if I take the WD NVME from my framework and install it in the MSI board it boots just fine which to me says it's not a BIOS settings issue as I have 1 drive that works with both computers and 1 drive that only works with 1 computer with the same BIOS settings. I can reformat the drive no problem. I can use it as an external storage drive on my adapter no problem. I can completely fill the drive with data and copy that same data from the drive with no problem. By all measures it is a fully functional drive, yet the computer REFUSES to boot from the 970EVO no matter what I do on the MSI Z490.

 

I can see the 970EVO in the BIOS. I have formatted the drive as GPT. I have fresh installed Windows using a known good installer (which works perfectly with my silicon power nvme on the same computer in the same m2 slot). I have verified we are set to UEFI. I have verified Secure Boot and Fast Boot are disabled. (even with them enabled, no) I have tried the 970EVO in both m2 slots and made sure it is the only connected device during Windows install. The windows install sees the NVME and lets me install to the 970EVO. After the install finishes the computer restarts and boot manager will not recognize the 970EVO yet BIOS still shows the drive. No amount of changing Boot Order solves anything. It is a constant circle.

 

This is not the only time I've seen a 970EVO cause problems but it's getting to be too much now I have to see if others are having these issues with these drives. A majority of the time that I read people online having issues with "NVME Detected in BIOS but won't boot Windows" they claim they are using 970EVOs. Yet all of my research shows people suggesting the 970EVOs are great drives for primary boot devices. Which is it?

 

I feel bad telling my client sorry you bought a shitty NVME, but if it's true I'd like to be able to explain why it's shitty. Can anybody shed any light on the situation?

 

I would chock it up to a bad NVME if it didn't work in a different computer and my adapter. I would chock it up to a bad m2 socket if other NVME didn't work in the slot. I would chock it up to a BIOS setting if I didn't go through every option and those same BIOS settings work for a WD NVME. The Silicon Power, WD, and 970EVO share the same key type as well.

 

My gut says there must be something unique about the 970EVO and this MSI board hates it, but I cannot find any information in my research. The only thing I can find is they use V-Nand which is a physically different built NAND (cell stacking) but in theory should work the same and also the drive still works on my other machine so it's not like it's physically broken. I hate computers some days

TIA for any help and hopefully we can get a little more information out there.
 

[Shimejii]

Recent samsung drives have had various  issues over the past few years. To the point that Backblaze has moved onto Sabrent as their Go to brand for SSD durability

[RONOTHAN##]

1 minute ago, Code-ER said:

Thoughts on Samsung 970 EVO NVME? Anybody have problems with them?

Expensive, but in my experience they basically always work with everything. They're not a drive I recommend buying really, they're outclassed by cheaper drives at this point, though as someone who does troubleshoot a lot of devices I do try to keep one around (it doesn't hurt that a lot of the boards I buy have people who forgot to take their 970 Evo out, so I've just got 4-5 in my possession). Granted, I don't own one made after 2020, and supposedly their QC has gone down hill hard over the last year or so, so that might be part of the reason why my experience is as different as it is. 

 

10 minutes ago, Code-ER said:

My gut says there must be something unique about the 970EVO and this MSI board hates it

Not really, it uses standard NAND and a standard controller. Plus every MSI board I've used behaves with them, ranging from X370 to Z390 to Z690. I'd have a hard time believing that there's one particular MSI board that they're just broken with. 

 

 

First thing I might do is contact MSI and see if they know if there's anything they can do. This sounds like a BIOS issue, there there definitely are times where a borked BIOS can affect PCIe compatibility (there's a BIOS for my X570 Master where I cannot boot with a 1080 Ti installed, for instance), so they might be able to double check that and send you a new BIOS revision that possibly works. Granted, it's MSI's customer service, so don't expect that much, but still going to an earlier BIOS revision might help. Latest ≠ best. 

[dilpickle]

17 minutes ago, Shimejii said:

Recent samsung drives have had various  issues over the past few years. To the point that Backblaze has moved onto Sabrent as their Go to brand for SSD durability

Where did you get that info?

[Shimejii]

Just now, dilpickle said:

Where did you get that info?

Samsung Admitted it, takes but a a google search to find both that and the backblaze thing. There was a TON of issues with the newer 980/980 pro drives, tons of issues and they took quite a while to admit and put out a firmware to attempt to fix it. 

[dilpickle]

1 minute ago, Shimejii said:

Samsung Admitted it, takes but a a google search to find both that and the backblaze thing. There was a TON of issues with the newer 980/980 pro drives, tons of issues and they took quite a while to admit and put out a firmware to attempt to fix it. 

"Tons" is hardly a technical term and that's not what I was asking about. Its known that Samsung drives had problems that were fixed with firmware updates.

 

I don't see anything about Backblaze using either Samsung or Sabrent SSDs.

[RONOTHAN##]

1 minute ago, dilpickle said:

I don't see anything about Backblaze using either Samsung or Sabrent SSDs.

It was Puget who changed, not Backblaze. 

 

3 minutes ago, dilpickle said:

Its known that Samsung drives had problems that were fixed with firmware updates.

They weren't fully fixed, and they have some drives like the 870 Evo that were never fixed because it wasn't a firmware issue. 

[Shimejii]

2 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

It was Puget who changed, not Backblaze. 

 

They weren't fully fixed, and they have some drives like the 870 Evo that were never fixed because it wasn't a firmware issue. 

Backblaze mentioned it as their recommendation for an SSD, whereas Pudget fully swapped over to them. Should have worded that better.  Backblaze had a Go to list for their SSD's they would say would be their go to. Think it was their Sept 2022 testing that they mentioned it for the Sabrent drives.

[dilpickle]

14 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

It was Puget who changed, not Backblaze. 

 

Ok I see that.

 

10 minutes ago, Shimejii said:

Backblaze mentioned it as their recommendation for an SSD, whereas Pudget fully swapped over to them. Should have worded that better.  Backblaze had a Go to list for their SSD's they would say would be their go to. Think it was their Sept 2022 testing that they mentioned it for the Sabrent drives.

 

I still think you're confused. I've looked at all the Backblaze data and they've never used Samsung or Sabrent SSDs.

[Code-ER]

1 hour ago, RONOTHAN## said:

Expensive, but in my experience they basically always work with everything. They're not a drive I recommend buying really, they're outclassed by cheaper drives at this point, though as someone who does troubleshoot a lot of devices I do try to keep one around (it doesn't hurt that a lot of the boards I buy have people who forgot to take their 970 Evo out, so I've just got 4-5 in my possession). Granted, I don't own one made after 2020, and supposedly their QC has gone down hill hard over the last year or so, so that might be part of the reason why my experience is as different as it is. 

 

Not really, it uses standard NAND and a standard controller. Plus every MSI board I've used behaves with them, ranging from X370 to Z390 to Z690. I'd have a hard time believing that there's one particular MSI board that they're just broken with. 

 

 

First thing I might do is contact MSI and see if they know if there's anything they can do. This sounds like a BIOS issue, there there definitely are times where a borked BIOS can affect PCIe compatibility (there's a BIOS for my X570 Master where I cannot boot with a 1080 Ti installed, for instance), so they might be able to double check that and send you a new BIOS revision that possibly works. Granted, it's MSI's customer service, so don't expect that much, but still going to an earlier BIOS revision might help. Latest ≠ best. 

This was my next thought but yeah, I do not have the highest hopes for MSI's CS. I will try some older listed BIOS revisions just for giggles.

I can install Windows to the 970EVO. It will not boot. I can remove the NVME and put a Silicon Power in. Install Windows to the Silicon Power and it boots to Windows. I can re-install the 970 alongside the Silicon Power and it will still boot to the Windows OS on the Silicon Power drive. I can see the 970 EVOs drive show up as D: and it has the Windows Install directory from my prior attempt. So the computer is able to talk to the drive it's just not able to boot Windows on this MSI board using this 970EVO. I formatted the 970EVO using the Silicon Power Windows Install and it mounts just fine and appears like it will work great for a storage drive. I just don't understand how it can only work for storage and not booting Windows but WILL boot Windows on a different computer.

[Code-ER]

Well, MSI Support only suggests that the NVME is damaged. They refuse to acknowledge the fact that it works as a storage drive and the fact that it boots to Windows on another PC. I tried all available BIOS revisions and none of them would recognize the drive as a boot device. I have to assume the MSI BIOS is missing some standard API for the 970EVO. Wish there was a better update.