Tuning down CPU turbo speed for thermal

[Walter_Kai]

Dell G5 5587 struggles with thermal. Unless you drop the service panel and put a fan into it, it will thermal throttle and drops to 5fps before it recovers or crashes. New thermal paste did nothing.

Ended up dropping the maximum processor state to 98% and maximum frequency to 3.3GHz, as opposed to the designed 4.1GHz. There is no point pinning it to 4.1 when it can't sustain it.

 

It's got an i7-8750H, which is decent. Just wondering how much performance am I sacrificing by doing this?

 

 

[Levent]

Download 3dmark and find out. Run a benchmark before limiting your max clock and run one after removing the limit. FYI, not all apps scale with frequency.

[manikyath]

if you're thermal throttling into oblivion, just an underclock "shouldnt" fix that.. thermal throttling doesnt slow down the cpu 'below' a speed where a sustained load is able to stay within thermal limits.

[Walter_Kai]

Not sure if it's just how Dell did it, when it drops to 5fps, the CPU frequency drops to 0.89GHz, then go back up to 2.8 or 3.8 when it "Cools" down. As far as I can tell, that's the main thing that's killing my FPS. GPU is always like 78C and as far as I can tell, the laptop's 180W powerbrick is doing it's job? It's a laptop, cooling is not great but in my opinion Dell f*cked the 5587 cooling design, under engineered it and now there's no way to fix it, but not to push it so hard.

 

Ran HWinFO64 with BeamNG Drive, after dropping the CPU turbo frequency, max temp is 93C on the i7 cores, as oppose to 99C before, and this is with the service panel back on.

 

3D mark is a good idea, but not that hard core, just wondering how much generally I would notice on a day to day use, not so much scientifically putting a % in performance drop. I did in previously have undervolting going on, but didn't really notice the difference and once Dell updates come in, all the settings gets erased, so it's not pragmatic for me. I use this laptop docced with Type-C to external monitor, keyboard and mouse, and take it with me on the go when I need to. 70% personnel use, 10% gaming, 20% excel/word work related stuff. Having to remove the service panel or do a bunch of "out of factory" tuning is not ideal for me.

[unclewebb]

50 minutes ago, Walter_Kai said:

drops to 5fps

Many Dell laptops with 8th Gen CPUs like the 8750H have some severe throttling problems. This was the first year for Dell's new power limit based throttling scheme. Cooling tends to be inadequate. If the processor is allowed to run at its full rated speed, it will get too hot and this will trigger power limit throttling. The 8750H has a 45W TDP rating. When this Dell throttling scheme kicks in, the turbo power limits are dropped down to 5 Watts or less by an embedded controller (EC). This can lock the CPU to its minimum speed of 800 MHz. The result is a huge drop in FPS which makes these laptops unusable for gaming. 

 

What you have discovered is completely normal for these Dell laptops. I always suggest running ThrottleStop and turning on the Log File option so you have a record of CPU performance when it goes through one of these cycles. Attach a log to your next post if you want me to have a look at it. 

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/download/techpowerup-throttlestop/

 

The log file will clearly show exactly what is happening. There is no fix for this problem. If you contact Dell like others have, the Dell rep will not likely admit that this is a problem. It is a big problem that would cost Dell a fortune to fix so they are pretty quiet about this.

 

All you can do is exactly what you are doing now. You have to limit the CPU speed to try and prevent the computer from getting too hot. You have to avoid the CPU dropping down to its 5W power limit.

 

What type of thermal paste did you use? A lot of users have had trouble with MX-4 when used direct die in a laptop. It can quickly pump out in as little as two weeks or less. Temperatures will go up and up after that happens. Noctua NT-H2 works better long term in the hot running laptop environment. 

[Walter_Kai]

2 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

Many Dell laptops with 8th Gen CPUs like the 8750H have some severe throttling problems. This was the first year for Dell's new power limit throttling scheme. Cooling tends to be inadequate. If the processor is allowed to run at its full rated speed, it will get too hot and this will trigger power limit throttling. The 8750H has a 45W TDP rating. When this Dell throttling scheme kicks in, the turbo power limits are dropped down to 5 Watts or less by an embedded controller (EC). This can lock the CPU to its minimum speed of 800 MHz. The result is a huge drop in FPS which makes these laptops unusable for gaming. 

 

What you have discovered is completely normal for these Dell laptops. I always suggest running ThrottleStop and turning on the Log File option so you have a record of CPU performance when it goes through one of these cycles.

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/download/techpowerup-throttlestop/

 

The log file will clearly show exactly what is happening. There is no fix for this problem. If you contact Dell like others have, the Dell rep will not likely admit that this is a problem. It is a big problem that would cost Dell a fortune to fix so they are pretty quiet about this.

 

All you can do is exactly what you are doing now. You have to limit the CPU speed to try and prevent the computer from getting too hot. You have to avoid the CPU dropping down to its 5W power limit.

 

What type of thermal paste did you use? A lot of users have had trouble with MX-4 when used direct die in a laptop. It can quickly pump out in as little as two weeks or less. Temperatures will go up and up after that happens. 

Thanks for the info, it makes more sense now why the seemingly "powerful" i7 performance just drops performance so drastically. It just doesn't make sense they are pinning it to 4.1GHz when it can't sustain it. Surely their engineering department is aware of the 6core, hyperthreading to 12 will result in thermal requirement. Have they not test it when they designed it?

 

I have seen extreme answers on the Dell official technical support, ranging from blaming the laptop is only designed for excel and word since it's not an Alienware, to actually working on it and released an updated Dell Power Management software with much more aggressive fan curves. 

 

I know it seems lazy and I hope not to upset the hardcore gaming enthusiast, but I can't be bothered playing with all those undervolting / throttle stop management / testing etc. I rather limit it's power output and get it "fixed".

 

Best I can do is disassemble the laptop to clean the fans, I paid a computer shop to do thermal re-paste end of last year. From what they sell, I think it's artic silver, or thermal grizzly, one of the better known brands. I can only assume they did it with those. This 5fps drop has been happening way before I re-pasted it and ever since I repasted it, so unlikely the thermal paste's problem.

 

Will try tomorrow with Halo Infinite, hopefully it doesn't do this 5fps stuff again with the service panel back on.

 

 

[unclewebb]

7 minutes ago, Walter_Kai said:

Dell official technical support

The Dell forum is kind of a farce. I got kicked off of their years ago because they got fed up with me telling users about these problems. I also heard their nonsense about "if you want to play games, you need to buy one of our Alienware computers".

 

10 minutes ago, Walter_Kai said:

their engineering department

There is not much the engineering department can do if the rest of the company is not on board. Proper cooling for a CPU with a 45W TDP might have cost an extra $5 or $10 bucks. They decided instead for engineering to dream up a throttling scheme. This fix costs nothing. All they end up losing are customers that will hopefully shop elsewhere next time. 

 

What most people do not realize is that these issues are not one time issues. Dell laptops have had throttling issues like this going back to the Core 2 Duo days before 2008. I have been closely following this issue since then. Year after year this happens. People keep buying Dell laptops so there is no reason for Dell to change what has become a very successful business model. 

16 minutes ago, Walter_Kai said:

I rather limit it's power output and get it "fixed".

There is no real fix for these issues. You might have to limit the CPU to less than half of its rated speed to avoid it going into 5W - 800 MHz mode. Other laptops do not do this. Only Dell. 

 

Dell has locked out CPU voltage control on many of their laptops. ThrottleStop is a good tool to document exactly what is going on. It tracks the CPU temperature, speed and power consumption in a single log file as well as any reasons for throttling. Some monitoring programs create log files with an immense amount of data. ThrottleStop concentrates on reporting data that clearly shows the problem your Dell laptop is having. 

[Walter_Kai]

21 minutes ago, unclewebb said:

The Dell forum is kind of a farce. I got kicked off of their years ago because they got fed up with me telling users about these problems. I also heard their nonsense about "if you want to play games, you need to buy one of our Alienware computers".

 

There is not much the engineering department can do if the rest of the company is not on board. Proper cooling for a CPU with a 45W TDP might have cost an extra $5 or $10 bucks. They decided instead for engineering to dream up a throttling scheme. This fix costs nothing. All they end up losing are customers that will hopefully shop elsewhere next time. 

 

What most people do not realize is that these issues are not one time issues. Dell laptops have had throttling issues like this going back to the Core 2 Duo days before 2008. I have been closely following this issue since then. Year after year this happens. People keep buying Dell laptops so there is no reason for Dell to change what has become a very successful business model. 

There is no real fix for these issues. You might have to limit the CPU to less than half of its rated speed to avoid it going into 5W - 800 MHz mode. Other laptops do not do this. Only Dell. 

 

Dell has locked out CPU voltage control on many of their laptops. ThrottleStop is a good tool to document exactly what is going on. It tracks the CPU temperature, speed and power consumption in a single log file as well as any reasons for throttling. Some monitoring programs create log files with an immense amount of data. ThrottleStop concentrates on reporting data that clearly shows the problem your Dell laptop is having. 

The post I found about the 5587 is either you, or someone sharing a very close mindset with you haha.

 

To be, that is a disgusting attitude, no only is your product faulty, you are blaming your customers for the issues you created as a reputable entity. Any computer regardless of "gaming" or not, if it can't sustain a load that it was designed for by hardware configuration, is an engineering failure.

 

Throttling is an acceptable concept for me, as long as it's done properly. If it drops to 0.8MHz, whether it is just bad configuration, or cooling design failure, then it becomes unacceptable. Laptops are crammed units and it makes sense there will be limitation, just has to be designed properly. Say an iPhone, you don't see it freezing cause of heat management, unless you are using it in full brightness under a 40C sun.

 

Thanks for the recommendation on Throttlestop, but to me, if it only tells me the issue but doesn't fix it, it serves no purpose and there is no point in putting effort into it.

 

Perhaps it's time to move on from Dell in my next purchase. 

[unclewebb]

2 hours ago, Walter_Kai said:

or someone sharing a very close mindset with you

It was probably me! 

 

2 hours ago, Walter_Kai said:

just has to be designed properly

I agree. If you sell a laptop and charge a customer for a 45W CPU, it should be able to perform indefinitely at 45W without any need to thermal throttle or power limit throttle. Your Dell laptop and many other laptops fail that test. If it runs too hot, Dell needs to include a bigger heatsink or a stronger fan or both. If a laptop cannot run at its rated speed or rated power then a company should not be selling it. Limit it to 30W or whatever the cooling system can manage without overheating. Don't advertise specs that are impossible to use. 

 

Imagine if an auto manufacturer was installing 400 HP engines in their cars but the radiator and cooling system only allowed the engine to operate at 40 HP before it started to overheat. You would see a full investigation on 60 Minutes and every other similar news site. Something would have to be done to fix this problem. In the world of laptops, throttling problems are ignored and swept under the carpet, year after year. No government regulation, no nothing. There is no one checking up on laptop manufacturers to see if their laptops can run at the advertised spec. Most review sites are afraid to say anything negative out of fear that they will lose access to laptops to test. 

 

2 hours ago, Walter_Kai said:

Perhaps it's time to move on from Dell

Dell may be one of the worst offenders but they are not the only manufacturer with throttling issues. At least now you know what to look for the next time you go laptop shopping. Learn to do your own hands on testing. Return any laptop that cannot run at its rated specs.   

[Walter_Kai]

On 4/16/2022 at 3:19 AM, unclewebb said:

It was probably me! 

 

I agree. If you sell a laptop and charge a customer for a 45W CPU, it should be able to perform indefinitely at 45W without any need to thermal throttle or power limit throttle. Your Dell laptop and many other laptops fail that test. If it runs too hot, Dell needs to include a bigger heatsink or a stronger fan or both. If a laptop cannot run at its rated speed or rated power then a company should not be selling it. Limit it to 30W or whatever the cooling system can manage without overheating. Don't advertise specs that are impossible to use. 

 

Imagine if an auto manufacturer was installing 400 HP engines in their cars but the radiator and cooling system only allowed the engine to operate at 40 HP before it started to overheat. You would see a full investigation on 60 Minutes and every other similar news site. Something would have to be done to fix this problem. In the world of laptops, throttling problems are ignored and swept under the carpet, year after year. No government regulation, no nothing. There is no one checking up on laptop manufacturers to see if their laptops can run at the advertised spec. Most review sites are afraid to say anything negative out of fear that they will lose access to laptops to test. 

 

Dell may be one of the worst offenders but they are not the only manufacturer with throttling issues. At least now you know what to look for the next time you go laptop shopping. Learn to do your own hands on testing. Return any laptop that cannot run at its rated specs.   

After dropping it down to 3300MHz, seems like the computer is now able to perform sustained load. Temperature now sits below 85C and can run at clock of around 2800MHz. 

According to the program, CPU has never throttled. Not sure why it recorded minimum at 1995MHz or it's not pinned at 3300MHz, but it ain't throttling according to the program.

 

This is with the service panel back on, hopefully I can use it without it freezing now.

[unclewebb]

40 minutes ago, Walter_Kai said:

Not sure why it recorded minimum at 1995MHz

Most monitoring programs do not accurately track the CPU speed. This is especially true when the CPU is not fully loaded. ThrottleStop uses the Intel recommended monitoring method and can detect tiny changes in the CPU multiplier. The competition is not even close. Turn the Log File option on in ThrottleStop and you will have an accurate record of what your CPU is really doing.  

 

40 minutes ago, Walter_Kai said:

After dropping it down to 3300MHz

I have never tested the Windows Maximum processor frequency setting. I am not sure if it can maintain the CPU at that speed or not. Probably not. Usually when you set the Maximum processor state to 99%, this disables Intel Turbo Boost so an 8750H will be running at its base frequency which is 2.20 GHz. There might be some conflict between the Windows Maximum processor state setting and the Windows Maximum processor frequency setting. 

 

When not fully loaded, Intel mobile CPUs have cores that are rapidly entering and exiting various low power C states. A core in the C7 state is disconnected from the internal clock so it is actually sitting at 0 MHz. Some monitoring software likes to wake up idle cores to sample their speed which is kind of silly. The speed the core reports is not the speed it was at before the monitoring software woke it up. 

 

The Dell throttling problem seems to be first triggered either by the peak core temperature or the average core temperature. I know that if the peak core temperature reaches the thermal throttling temperature even once, that seems to be enough to trigger 5W - 800 MHz mode. It might also be the average temperature. Running consistently at 90°C is below the thermal throttling temperature but that might also be enough to trigger low speed mode. Hopefully you can figure something out so your laptop is useable again.