Why is it like this?

[MrXeno]

Currious question more then anything else.

 

Why're most of the linux community against "changes" to make linux a more user friendly OS to use.

I see a lot of "elitst" going against people like me and others that can see that linux can be a good choice if changes to how it works was made.

Changes like drag and drop files (I have this issues a lot with some distros) less terminal stuff. And a standard APT store with a one click installer so you don't have to go into the terminal and do "apt install firefox" to get the most stable and right version of firefox to your system? would it really be that bad to have a one stop shop like the Microsoft store does for winodws users?

 

I know that pop shop and ubuntu software center uses snaps / flatpak but those to types doesn't fix the bottom issue, a one click installer that just works and does it in the right way for the program to perform the best it can on the machine.

 

I'm currious to hear your peoples ideaer and thoughts

[Levent]

Linux community have been more helpful with me than any other community. That elitist argument in my opinion is not true. 

 

What you are looking for is simple drop in replacement for whatever operating system you previously used. Which may not be possible.

 

As far as 

22 minutes ago, MrXeno said:

the bottom issue, a one click installer that just works and does it in the right way for the program to perform the best it can on the machine.

Every single users hardware is different and configured differently, let alone having different software. This is simply not possible on any platform other than Apples own. Microsofts own store has been a flop and attempts to revive it with every new windows release have been a major failure, that is why Microsoft is slowly forcing it upon manufacturers to use it. Also just because it is in windows store doesn't mean it is the best performing version of that app, windows store keeps apps in encrypted filespace and that alone has a negative performance impact.

 

 

Every software store on GNU/Linux distros have different principles and set of rules to be included in official repositories. Some stores/repos compile the releases themselves and others require maintainers to provide that. 

 

Bottom line is, you have to adapt. If you don't want to, you can always build your own distro to fit your own needs. Change is always hard.

 

 

[Fasauceome]

38 minutes ago, MrXeno said:

And a standard APT store with a one click installer so you don't have to go into the terminal and do "apt install firefox"

Ubuntu software store has been doing well for me on this front.

[fuzz0r]

38 minutes ago, MrXeno said:

I see a lot of "elitst" going against people like me and others that can see that linux can be a good choice if changes to how it works was made.

Well Linux isn't really there to conform to YOUR needs, if you understand my meaning.

It's built upon different principles than Windows is.

You'll need to figure out how to customize your installation.

There are distros like Pop!_OS which have very few terminal interactions, if that isn't your thing.

 

I don't know what circles you usually travel in online when you need help with stuff on Linux, but there are most definitely good communities too.

[Sauron]

46 minutes ago, MrXeno said:

Why're most of the linux community against "changes" to make linux a more user friendly OS to use.

Define "most"... while there are definitely a few vocal elitists, they are mostly irrelevant. Distribution developers always strive to make their system as good as possible for their target audience and there are plenty of distributions that target newcomers. Gentoo will never be beginner friendly, but it doesn't need to - stuff like Ubuntu exists for them.

46 minutes ago, MrXeno said:

Changes like drag and drop files (I have this issues a lot with some distros)

This is a problem with specific distributions, all the major ones support this with no issue.

48 minutes ago, MrXeno said:

And a standard APT store with a one click installer so you don't have to go into the terminal and do "apt install firefox" to get the most stable and right version of firefox to your system?

Again, many distributions have this.

48 minutes ago, MrXeno said:

would it really be that bad to have a one stop shop like the Microsoft store does for winodws users?

Microsoft literally copied that from Linux distributions and macOS.

49 minutes ago, MrXeno said:

I know that pop shop and ubuntu software center uses snaps / flatpak but those to types doesn't fix the bottom issue, a one click installer that just works and does it in the right way for the program to perform the best it can on the machine.

Yes they do. In 99% of cases where someone has complained to me about this not working they were trying to do something that isn't officially supported by anyone, like running windows software on wine - that's not something that can be fixed by Linux developers or distribution maintainers. Stuff like wine is inherently janky, because it's a workaround for the lack of support from developers of software like games or the Adobe suite.

 

Want to see Windows fail at this 10 times as hard? Try compiling a "hello world" C program on Windows without using Visual Studio or WSL.

 

Also, while I'm all for making Linux as accessible as possible, this does not mean it should be made to behave exactly like Windows just because people are used to it. Nobody asks this of macOS, I don't see why they should of Linux distributions. These distros are their own operating system and it doesn't make sense to try and bend them to be something they're not - besides, Windows has its own host of accessibility problems that people tend to forget just because they're used to it. I mean, if you want you're welcome to try... but historically it has never worked out and in my opinion it's the wrong direction to take.

[MrXeno]

33 minutes ago, fuzz0r said:

Well Linux isn't really there to conform to YOUR needs, if you understand my meaning.

It's built upon different principles than Windows is.

You'll need to figure out how to customize your installation.

There are distros like Pop!_OS which have very few terminal interactions, if that isn't your thing.

 

I don't know what circles you usually travel in online when you need help with stuff on Linux, but there are most definitely good communities too.

I generally move in the ubuntu community where my experiance is often "Use the terminal" and "why ant you using the terminal idiot" 

 

I do understand that not everyone has the same needs, but it doesn't change the fact that windows does one thing  that sadly linux distro still doesn't do "jack of all trads" a one side fit all where the avage person like my girlfriend can use it without having to ask me for "it says my browser is outdated, how do I update it? it doesn't do itself" and "how do i install this thing?". She knows her way around gnome DE but simple like this is just a pain for her because she is so use to windows doing it for her with a one click.

 

I will be moving her over to pop!_OS as I simple can't fix her pc when i'm at work, she is good at breaking stuff by just using it lol

[MrXeno]

2 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Define "most"... while there are definitely a few vocal elitists, they are mostly irrelevant. Distribution developers always strive to make their system as good as possible for their target audience and there are plenty of distributions that target newcomers. Gentoo will never be beginner friendly, but it doesn't need to - stuff like Ubuntu exists for them.

Its totally fine with distro for target audians, that's the same for Windows Workstation edition. Ubuntu is what I am personally use to but dealing with snaps is a bit annoying when they break for whatever reason. 90% of the time its the dev that has done something but oh well 

 

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

This is a problem with specific distributions, all the major ones support this with no issue.

This might just be a my case issue with the install I have on my pc. I will just do a clean install to see if it fixes it. but that's good to know!

 

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Again, many distributions have this.

What I have seen and heard over the years and from devs them self for that matter. Snaps and flatpak doesn't use APT, but some weird way to sandbox (to my knowledge flatpak does this). Correct me if i'm wrong  

 

8 minutes ago, Sauron said:

1 hour ago, MrXeno said:

would it really be that bad to have a one stop shop like the Microsoft store does for winodws users?

Microsoft literally copied that from Linux distributions and macOS.

I do not remember why I phrased it that way? that's my bad!

 

9 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Yes they do. In 99% of cases where someone has complained to me about this not working they were trying to do something that isn't officially supported by anyone, like running windows software on wine - that's not something that can be fixed by Linux developers or distribution maintainers. Stuff like wine is inherently janky, because it's a workaround for the lack of support from developers of software like games or the Adobe suite.

 

Want to see Windows fail at this 10 times as hard? Try compiling a "hello world" C program on Windows without using Visual Studio or WSL.

 

Also, while I'm all for making Linux as accessible as possible, this does not mean it should be made to behave exactly like Windows just because people are used to it. Nobody asks this of macOS, I don't see why they should of Linux distributions. These distros are their own operating system and it doesn't make sense to try and bend them to be something they're not - besides, Windows has its own host of accessibility problems that people tend to forget just because they're used to it. I mean, if you want you're welcome to try... but historically it has never worked out and in my opinion it's the wrong direction to take.

I don't use WINE because of how janky it is. So i tend to fine a linux version of the program I need which isn't hard I must say-

 

That I have tried and yes its funny lol

 

no for sure it shouldn't behave like windows in a 1 to 1 sense, I have had my fair share of weird issues with windows over bluetooth, USB and drivers breaking for no reason at all. The same goes for outlook which is a nightmare to deal with to be honest..... You're probably right, the next ubuntu version looks like it will be more accessibalbe then 20.04 is so that's good. The main issues I have had with it was snaps breaking left and right now because of some weird driver patches from the markers of ubuntu. So this is probably more of a hardware related issues. Plus nvidia's shity way of making drivers.... its a nightmare sometimes....

 

 

Unrelated question, how is wayland over x11? is it worth using?

 

Correct me if i'm wrong in anyway, I rather learn something then to be stuck in a closed mind set  

[Sauron]

3 minutes ago, MrXeno said:

What I have seen and heard over the years and from devs them self for that matter. Snaps and flatpak doesn't use APT, but some weird way to sandbox (to my knowledge flatpak does this). Correct me if i'm wrong  

Not quite a sandbox, they just package all dependencies with the program so you don't have to worry about mismatched versions or missing dependencies.

8 minutes ago, MrXeno said:

Plus nvidia's shity way of making drivers.... its a nightmare sometimes....

Yeah, unfortunately that's out of Ubuntu developers' hands.

9 minutes ago, MrXeno said:

Unrelated question, how is wayland over x11? is it worth using?

Not if you're looking for a stable experience  Wayland is pretty new and a lot of stuff doesn't work well with it yet.

[MrXeno]

21 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Not quite a sandbox, they just package all dependencies with the program so you don't have to worry about mismatched versions or missing dependencies.

So what would you recommend? apt command, snaps or flatpak?

 

21 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Not if you're looking for a stable experience  Wayland is pretty new and a lot of stuff doesn't work well with it yet.

Ah oki good to know lol

 

[Sauron]

1 hour ago, MrXeno said:

So what would you recommend? apt command, snaps or flatpak?

If it's available on the official repositories you should almost always prefer apt since the packages are lighter and tested specifically for your distribution. Snaps are second best since they're officially supported by canonical. Flatpak should probably be the last resort if you're on Ubuntu.

[meticoeus]

1 hour ago, MrXeno said:

So what would you recommend? apt command, snaps or flatpak?

If you're moving your girlfriend to Pop OS, their GUI app store uses flatpak and .deb depending on the app. I've found flatpak to work well for normal apps. I've only had issues with some power user tools like IDEs that tend to need more access to the system than flatpak has by default.

 

Also on Pop OS, anything installed through apt in the terminal or through the app store can be updated with a single click in the app store similar to using android (update 1 app or all apps with updates) so it is pretty non-tech user friendly.

[Kilrah]

The annoying thing with the snap store is that many of the snaps are provided by third parties and unmaintained. 

 

So when you install a distro you get steered to the store, that'll be just fine for the big apps like firefox, vlc etc so you get used to "the store is where it's at", but then as soon as you get into somewhat less popular things you'll find it in the store, install it, stuff's broken or not as expected and you wonder why until you go to the store page again and see it's not the app's dev that's published the snap but some random guy, he did so 2 years ago or more and never published any updates...

[flindeberg]

7 hours ago, MrXeno said:

Why're most of the linux community against "changes" to make linux a more user friendly OS to use.

I think the vantage point you have to have to make that statement is quite messed up. Configurability and interoperability are lodestars of professional computing (and is one kind of user friendliness), what you probably mean with user friendliness (as in ease of using the system being used to the user experience of Windows or similar commercial product) is definitely secondary. No one is against user friendliness as in ease of use with a GUI, but it is much less important than the technical characteristics (which I (note *me*, I do not assume that everyone else shares this view) would consider a more important form of user friendliness).

 

See, for example, snaps; on paper they look user friendly, but in practice snaps can put you in corners if they are badly built or badly maintained. A system managed by an at first sight less user friendly package manager, can be much more user friendly to maintain. Especially if something breaks. If there is something wrong with a snap you are out of luck. If there is something wrong with an open source package available through the AUR you can usually patch it yourself.

 

Think of it like this, as a contrived example to make a point; Windows is striving to be a Tesla, user friendly, easy to use, etc, but if something breaks you are out of luck and have to go to a certified repair shop to get it fixed. And even if you yourself is the greatest car modder ever, you cannot modify it because it is locked down. Linux distributions are usually (I would perhaps not include distros like Ubuntu or PopOS anymore) striving to be unbranded general purpose jeeps, where if one breaks you can fix it on your own, if you need to travel far you can mount extra fuel tanks, if you need a machine gun on the roof you can mount it, if you suddenly need real time scheduling you can apply a patch, etc. The purpose is to be user friendly in a changing environment, not to provide the best commercial of the shelf experience for a well paved road on a sunny day.

 

And to go back to your original point, you might see the jeep as user unfriendly since you have to learn how to drive stick, but someone planning a trip through the jungle might see automatic transmission as unfriendly as one surely cannot re-balance or fix a broken automatic transmission in the middle of nowhere. Different tools for different jobs. Linux and its environment and ecology is not designed for sunny days and well paved roads, it is designed to give you the best affordance of getting there, regardless of is there is a road or not, or is sunny, snowing, a tornado, or in space, or whatever.

 

And my view, I would rather get where I want to go even if it rains or if the road is in a bad state, than to optimize on how nicely I can get there on a sunny day. Always plan for the worst.