Band equipment help!

[Nertballs]

hey guys, i know this is a tech forum and all but i'm guessing someone here has some experience gigging or with PA, and the forum is a pretty good place to find help so here goes!

 

the story is, i'm part of a three man band (1 guitar, 1 banjo, a mic'd Cajone [music box thing], and three vocals, with a couple of extra things [guitars, mandolin, etc.] plugged in here and there). we've played three gigs, renting gear each time, and to be honest we're getting a bit sick of getting my brother (i don't have a car yet!) to drive a 40 mile round trip to give some of our profit to rent stuff!

 

we've been using a 1200w setup for pubs and such, which is nice because it lets us turn the master vol down a bit if we don't need it for a nice sound.

 

well anyway, we're looking at buying our own stuff, speakers we're more or less decided on, Peavey bass bins and tops, 1000w in total @ 4 ohm impedence.

 

i was just wondering, have any of ye any experience with Power Mixers? we're looking at a behringer PMP4000, which is a 14 channel 1600w@4ohm power mixer : http://www.thomann.de/ie/behringer_pmp_4000.htm?sid=61ae3faa1c9d8aabeff24a87e74a6ee2

 

any of ye any experience with these? any other recomendations? 

 

All advice is really appreciated, so please weigh in if you can! i know my fair share of sound stuff, my two brothers were DJs for a while, but i'd like to hear more from a band side too! thanks!

[Guest]

Okay so where abouts in the world are you? I'm figuring used equipment is probably your best bet or perhaps some decently priced active stuff. What's the budget?

Also I see you've made no mention of fold backs/monitors - is that because you don't use them or just can't afford to use them?

p.s - I work in the industry so feel free to ask me anything :)

[MegaDave91]

How about a Peavey power mixer? I trust them a lot more as a brand than Behringer.

 

I used to own a 6505+ head and I loved that thing.

[thereturnfc]

from my exp, behringer isnt a brand u wanna deal with. it is pretty cost effective but dies or cause problem pretty quick since its aim for low end user. if u are making money off music, i recommend u find a better power mixer. the pre amp on these guys will help u out with mics since DJ doesnt really bother with it , but in live band it kinda matters more.

my personal recommend would be unpower mixer, with 2 powered(aka. active) speaker. since u can always upgrade the mixer.

powered mixer isnt really good imo.

[That Norwegian Guy]

Behringer has a bit of an unfair reputation. While some may tell you they are super awesome and some will tell you they are horrible and you should avoid them, the truth is somewhere in the middle. They are pretty hit and miss, unfortunately, with about half of their products being crap and half of their products being somewhere between ok and awesome. I don't have any experience with that particular mixer, you just need to gather usage statistics from the internet yourself. Take in a bunch of the feedback that is bound to be online and decide for yourself.

 

They are a good budget option.

 

I agree with thereturnfc though in that an unpowered mixer with powered speakers is better.

[Guest]

from my exp, behringer isnt a brand u wanna deal with. it is pretty cost effective but dies or cause problem pretty quick since its aim for low end user. if u are making money off music, i recommend u find a better power mixer. the pre amp on these guys will help u out with mics since DJ doesnt really bother with it , but in live band it kinda matters more.

my personal recommend would be unpower mixer, with 2 powered(aka. active) speaker. since u can always upgrade the mixer.

powered mixer isnt really good imo.

Depends really on the product. I would go with a Behringer EP series amp over one of those Peavy IPR's or Crown XLS DriveCores because I know the EP's are clones of  QSC RMX amps and are rock solid. Behringer Truth monitors are also pretty decent. They have their hit and miss products.

 

Also for pub gigs I would probably go with an analogue desk from Behringer due to the environment. You spill beer on a Behringer desk - $300 to replace. You're looking at double that with a MixWiz 16:2. 

 

But yeah - budget, location and monitors; Y/N and I'll give you some ideas :)

[Nertballs]

Depends really on the product. I would go with a Behringer EP series amp over one of those Peavy IPR's or Crown XLS DriveCores because I know the EP's are clones of  QSC RMX amps and are rock solid. Behringer Truth monitors are also pretty decent. They have their hit and miss products.

 

Also for pub gigs I would probably go with an analogue desk from Behringer due to the environment. You spill beer on a Behringer desk - $300 to replace. You're looking at double that with a MixWiz 16:2. 

 

But yeah - budget, location and monitors; Y/N and I'll give you some ideas :)

sorry i didn't get a chance to reply, studyin for fianls right now along with all this!

 

Budget;

the band has three students, all in first year, so as you can guess 'cheap as possible' :P but i know this doesn't help, so i'm going to say around €1200, as this is what the price is for what we have priced here from Thomann.de/ie http://www.thomann.de/ie/basket.html?sid=f213a320f236d0924c54751aebb0477a

 

Location:

 

We've played at a few local charity shows as favours to the football club we play for, but they were all professionally set up, and we wouldn't have to do much for them.

 

the "real" gigs we do, would be in pubs or clubs, small to large-ish. we had considered a small set of tops, but we decided that we were as well paying for something we won't have to turn around and add to again soon.

 

the last one we played was in a large pub, and with a 1200w peavey amp and 1200w Behringer speakers, we were still only just making it across. this, to be fair, was because the fella we were getting our mixer off backed out at the last minute, and we ended up using a 12 channel powered mixer (which before you ask was only 200w a side, so no use!) with a record out as it had no unamplified signal out, through my brothers pioneer 4 channel DJ mixer so that we had the correctly split 2 channels to take into our amp, and we were getting a fair bit of feedback when we tried to max it out so i'd say we were only at 75% capacity.

 

Monitors:

 

I've played with them, at said charity shows, and to be honest i personally can play quite easy without them. most of the venues we play in it's quite easy to hear yourself enough back across the place. A lot of it comes down to Scór, which anyone here from Ireland will get, which was basically a talent competition on stage, and i played at that for years with no sign of monitors, so i kind of just got used to it. 

 

having said all this, if possible i'd like something with the option of us sticking a monitor on if we ever really needed it, but like i siad, it's no big thing for us anyway!

 

Thanks very much for all the help!

 

EDIT:

 

just thought i'd point out that the Behringer mixer would come with a three year warranty, which to me seems pretty great.

 

Oh, and i forgot to mention that we are trying our best to stay away from second hand gear. this is cos even though there's a good chance whatever wee get could be great quality, there's also a chance we could get it and an amp could just pop (happened to my cousin with an amp he got) and we simply don't have the money to buy gear and that to happen to us then.

[Guest]

So I've had a look and it's a shame that you're not in the US because the used market there is brilliant or here in Australia where I can hook you up with decent deals through work. I've come up with a bit of an idea but it's by no means perfect. Ideally you'll want at least one sub for anything over 80-100 people in a pub - Last gig I did in a pub a couple of weeks ago ended up with 2 dual 18's a side. 

 

EV EXL112 for mains

Behringer EP4000

Behringer X2442 USB

 

= Just over 1200 euros - if you call them up you should be able to get a deal with cables. 

 

I know a lot of people are probably going to scowl at the idea of using Behringer gear but they're wrong. That EP4000 is idea for those cabs putting out 550w @8ohm per channel and it's one of, if not Behringers best product though I haven't had my hands on their new X32 - yet. It's basically a QSC RMX2450 copy which I've seen in racks all over the place. 

 

The desk while not incredible will do. I personally have one of the smaller models and I'm quite happy with it. We also use them at work because it doesn't matter if something happens to it - it can be replaced cheaply. If you spill a drink on it which can happen if you're side of stage mixing in a bar, you'll be pissed if it's a MixWiz or Soundcraft 16 that set you back double what this costs. It's 10 XLR's in plus 2 stereos which are ideal for your iPod or DJ setup, 4 sub groups + FX. The pre's on it aren't too bad and keep in mind you're in a pub - people won't really notice. 
 

Upgrade paths - first upgrade would be to add in subs. If you're any decent at DIY, I would recommend going with that route if you're strapped for cash however if not, a matching ELX sub or two or perhaps a JBL MRX518 or 528 would suit. After that I would then look at adding in monitors or replacing your mains and using the ELX112's as your wedges. I would also try and get your hands on a 31 band EQ - that'll really help get you a better sound IF you know what you're doing with it. Even a basic DBX 231 will do the job. The EQ though is the once thing I wouldn't go to Behringer for - I've used one and it's fairly noisy. 

 

Feel free to ask any other questions :)

[Nertballs]

So I've had a look and it's a shame that you're not in the US because the used market there is brilliant or here in Australia where I can hook you up with decent deals through work. I've come up with a bit of an idea but it's by no means perfect. Ideally you'll want at least one sub for anything over 80-100 people in a pub - Last gig I did in a pub a couple of weeks ago ended up with 2 dual 18's a side. 

 

EV EXL112 for mains

Behringer EP4000

Behringer X2442 USB

 

= Just over 1200 euros - if you call them up you should be able to get a deal with cables. 

 

I know a lot of people are probably going to scowl at the idea of using Behringer gear but they're wrong. That EP4000 is idea for those cabs putting out 550w @8ohm per channel and it's one of, if not Behringers best product though I haven't had my hands on their new X32 - yet. It's basically a QSC RMX2450 copy which I've seen in racks all over the place. 

 

The desk while not incredible will do. I personally have one of the smaller models and I'm quite happy with it. We also use them at work because it doesn't matter if something happens to it - it can be replaced cheaply. If you spill a drink on it which can happen if you're side of stage mixing in a bar, you'll be pissed if it's a MixWiz or Soundcraft 16 that set you back double what this costs. It's 10 XLR's in plus 2 stereos which are ideal for your iPod or DJ setup, 4 sub groups + FX. The pre's on it aren't too bad and keep in mind you're in a pub - people won't really notice. 

 

Upgrade paths - first upgrade would be to add in subs. If you're any decent at DIY, I would recommend going with that route if you're strapped for cash however if not, a matching ELX sub or two or perhaps a JBL MRX518 or 528 would suit. After that I would then look at adding in monitors or replacing your mains and using the ELX112's as your wedges. I would also try and get your hands on a 31 band EQ - that'll really help get you a better sound IF you know what you're doing with it. Even a basic DBX 231 will do the job. The EQ though is the once thing I wouldn't go to Behringer for - I've used one and it's fairly noisy. 

 

Feel free to ask any other questions :)

Wow, that's pretty comprehensive! thanks very much! i will get back to you later though,stuck into the idea of photons being a probability wave in physics! i'll edit this post then, just wanted to say thanks now!

[Guest]

Wow, that's pretty comprehensive! thanks very much! i will get back to you later though,stuck into the idea of photons being a probability wave in physics! i'll edit this post then, just wanted to say thanks now!

No problem - I'd rather you got a good idea of what you're looking at than go and buy random stuff and be unsatisfied with it. I'll see if I can find a couple of documents and things that you may like but when you've got spare time, have a look at Dave Rat on YouTube. He's the owner of Rat Sound in the US and tours with guys like the Chilli Peppers and Linkin Park ect. He's got some good stuff on mix setup and eq.

One thing I did miss out about that desk is its comp/limiter functions. As I said, I've got its smaller cousin and I'm not happy with the comp function though I brought it because it was a desk, not because of that function. An Alesis 3630 for about $99 is near identical to the DBX counterpart yet half the cost - we've got about 6 of them at work. :)

[Nertballs]

All that makes sense. from the start i wanted to get a separate mixer/amp because it just gives you more upgrade-ability as time goes on. if you have good experience with that behringer equipment, then all sounds good, i'll be able to keep looking up reviews anyway! i have a few questions though;

 

Q. 1: what's the story with running an over-powered amp on speakers, eg. those speakers are 250w rms @ 8 ohm, and that amp is good for 2x 550w @ 8 ohm. do you just turn down the gain until it doesn't distort the sound out of the speakers, or do you run an inline resistor to compensate? any gear we've used so far was all a set, eg 2x 600w amp driving 200w tops and 400w bins. 

 

 

Q. 2: those speakers look like they'd be good for doing a small night, but there's nothing worse than not being able to get the quality of sound you need when driving a larger/fuller venue. for the sake of €200, would you recomend we get the bins/tops i already had? the reason we liked the bins were because through just tops, the banjo and guitar can come across quite high or tinny, and with the bins it gives it a nice rich low end without us getting a bass? i know it's 200 over budget, but it's be cheaper then selling on speakers later on to upgrade if you catch my drift?

 

Q. 3: is there any difference in sound quality, durability etc. in ohm rated speakers? eg what's the difference in buying a top that's 250w @8ohm and 250w@2ohm? i didn't think there is, but i'm not suer so i wanted to ask! i know it's important on the power amp side (P=I^2*R and all that) but i'm talking about the actual sound out of the speaker, not so much the loudness.

 

Q. 4; just out of interest, what's your job title or qualification? you really know your stuff! it's nice to get away from the "don't go near behringer or X brand they're crap i got one and it blew straight away" etc. and to hear the pros and cons of someone using it! I love this forum!

[Guest]

A1. Speakers want an amp that will put out double their RMS or half their peak power so 500w a side is perfect for them.

A2. What were you using before?

A3. No, impedance doesn't affect sound quality.

A4. I work for several production companies across a wide range of settings from theatre work and festivals to stadium shows for 30,000 people here in Melbourne. I haven't got any official qualification due to the fact that it's a waste of time. We've had guys come out of SAE having done audio engineering who don't know the first thing about working in live sound because those courses don't teach you a think. However I do have or am currently completing specialist certificates for flying arrays and cable testing.

[Nertballs]

A1. Speakers want an amp that will put out double their RMS or half their peak power so 500w a side is perfect for them.

A2. What were you using before?

A3. No, impedance doesn't affect sound quality.

A4. I work for several production companies across a wide range of settings from theatre work and festivals to stadium shows for 30,000 people here in Melbourne. I haven't got any official qualification due to the fact that it's a waste of time. We've had guys come out of SAE having done audio engineering who don't know the first thing about working in live sound because those courses don't teach you a think. However I do have or am currently completing specialist certificates for flying arrays and cable testing.

oh okay, i thought it was always just to match rms with maybe a bit of head room! 

 

we were using Behringer tops and bins, not sure what the tops were off the top of my head, but the bins were B1800X s. there was a great sound in them and plenty of drive. the first gig we did sounded kind of empty with just tops, but with these were much nicer.

 

i thought that much but i never knew so thanks!

 

yes that's one thing i'd completely agree on. from what i can see so far, it's very hard to be 'told' what to do when it comes to setting up sound. i've been lucky i've had my two brothers and an electronic engineer who used to do sound for his band at any of my gigs, but they've never really told me what to do, they're trying to keep it a learning process for when they aren't there!

 

another question, that beh mixer has a compression channel that i collect from reviews isn't much use. but what exactly is compression? i use it from time to time on my phone, and from a quick scan is it just something that evens out the sound of one channel against another?

[Guest]

Compression on the desk is a bit of a joke, you don't get the control that you do on a normal compressor. What compression is is limiting a signal by a set amount or ratio over a certain point. Limiters do a similar thing however that's more of a brick wall that I find useful for DJ's - you can't push the signal over x limit. 

 

I'm a bit busy at the moment however I'll find you a good video on compression when I get home as well as better suggestions for subs - one good sub is better than two bad ones. 

 

[Guest]

So I've finally got some time. I really wouldn't bother with those crummy Behringer subs. They've got a rated max SPL of 100dB so knock off a bit for it being calculated so you're looking at about 96dB from a sub. Pay a bit more and get the matching EV ELX118 subwoofer for 200 euro's and you go from 100dB calc to 134dB calc. You will notice that difference. The ELX also goes a little lower and to me sounds overall a lot better, giving off a fuller sound but to each his own.

 

You have two options with the 118 - either go the passive model with another EP4000 for about 800 euros and if you need you can add another sub for 500 more later or you can buy the active version (meaning there's an onboard amp) for 800 though that means you then have to either sell the sub when you go to upgrade or get a second identical one for 800 - never ever mix subs unless you know what you're doing. By knowing what you're doing I mean with different line array modules.. 

[joelthezombie15]

Okay so where abouts in the world are you? I'm figuring used equipment is probably your best bet or perhaps some decently priced active stuff. What's the budget?

Also I see you've made no mention of fold backs/monitors - is that because you don't use them or just can't afford to use them?

p.s - I work in the industry so feel free to ask me anything :)

ask windspeed hes your guy :D

[Guest]

Snip

Any further questions?

[Nertballs]

Any further questions?

crap sorry i never got back to you! pretty snowed under!

 

nope that should be it for now, you were pretty comprehensive in what you said! gonna report back to the rest of the guys to see what they say! we aren't ordering right away anyway, but thanks for the help!

 

i'm sure i'll be looking for you again! :)

[Guest]

crap sorry i never got back to you! pretty snowed under!

 

nope that should be it for now, you were pretty comprehensive in what you said! gonna report back to the rest of the guys to see what they say! we aren't ordering right away anyway, but thanks for the help!

 

i'm sure i'll be looking for you again! :)

Okay, well I'm not going anywhere :P

[Nertballs]

well i just had a massive post written up before my browser decided elsewise and it disappeared, so i'm gonna try generalise it if i can!

 

i wanted to ask, is it okay to run speakers of different impedence in series? eg does the resistance just add up or how does it work?

 

THE ACTUAL GEAR

 

i'm pretty much set on the amp and mixer route, it seems to just make more sense, and those two behringer pieces seem to suit us perfect. nothing too frilly, just what you need in a simple set-up, great for a new band.

 

now, for speakers...

 

 

okay, so the speakers you guys recommended were these EVs: http://www.thomann.de/ie/ev_elx_112.htm

 

while i see that these have a great range, and good power, i've a few questions...

 

would that 8 ohm impedence restrict us when upgrading to add bins, like would we need to get another amp or would we be running it too hard?

 

would they be enough to run a reasonably filled room on their own? i know for us purist or people who pay attention to music they woud be better due to their superior rang (50Hz--20kHz vs. 60 Hz--18kHz) but as you know in a pub sometimes the bit more punch can be more important too, and the extra sound quality might be lost out if we have to pound them.

 

they're much more expensive for less sound (i know, you get what you pay for and all, but i'm just exploring every avenue here!) because we'd have to get stands too, which are anywhere from 30-50 each it seems for something worthwhile.

 

so for that set up... €295 x 2 = €590 + 70 for stands = €660 + mixer/amp = €1330

 

the other option is what i've been looking at all along, not sure if i ever had it up here?

 

tops http://www.thomann.de/ie/peavey_messenger_pro_12_mk_ii.htm €169

bins http://www.thomann.de/ie/peavey_prosub_mkii_messenger_serie.htm €199

 

now i know this isn't as good of gear, but at the same time peavey have a good, reliable and sturdy reputation over here. 

 

i know they aren't rated to as high a decibel rating or frequency. what sort of distance will this make? when pushing the system will this be noticeable to the normal joe?

 

i haven't really much to compare the bins against, how would you rate them? we're thinking of adding a bass to certain songs, so how would that be through just tops vs bins also?

 

i'd be able to get hold of poles at home, so that's okay.

 

this set-up: tops €169 x 2 + €199 x 2 + mixer and amp = €1306

 

if it was your money, and you were going playing in a loud, crowded environment, which option would be best? we're the kind of band people tend to dance along to too, not just an easy listening crew, but mostly just current music really. 

 

Thanks again! and i had a much better post done out, but god damn you google chrome!

[Guest]

With the EV setup idea of 2 12" tops and eventually 2 18" subs, you could at a stretch  run it all off a single EP4000. It wouldn't be great but It would work. They would get enough power but a little more would be good. What happens is you would go channel A or B -> 12" top ->sub - this would give an impedeance of 4 ohm with a total power of about 950w for that channel. You could also go both tops on one channel and a sub on the other if you don't want to buy both subs at once. Keep in mind though that you would be running in mono.

 

Those other speakers you linked are a joke. They have a theoretical max SPL of just under 100dB. Your average home theatre system gets just as loud, if not louder. The ELX's on the otherhand are about 130dB - that's the difference between a busy street and a jumbo jet.

 

I would certainly be going with the ELX's. Also, I saw you're looking at stands and stuff as well. Go and see them if you can however I don't think there's a store in Ireland for them but call them up, have a chat with them - they'll do you a deal. :)

[Nertballs]

With the EV setup idea of 2 12" tops and eventually 2 18" subs, you could at a stretch  run it all off a single EP4000. It wouldn't be great but It would work. They would get enough power but a little more would be good. What happens is you would go channel A or B -> 12" top ->sub - this would give an impedeance of 4 ohm with a total power of about 950w for that channel. You could also go both tops on one channel and a sub on the other if you don't want to buy both subs at once. Keep in mind though that you would be running in mono.

 

Those other speakers you linked are a joke. They have a theoretical max SPL of just under 100dB. Your average home theatre system gets just as loud, if not louder. The ELX's on the otherhand are about 130dB - that's the difference between a busy street and a jumbo jet.

 

I would certainly be going with the ELX's. Also, I saw you're looking at stands and stuff as well. Go and see them if you can however I don't think there's a store in Ireland for them but call them up, have a chat with them - they'll do you a deal. :)

oh okay thanks! 

 

i've always rated the loudness of a speaker on power to be honest, was looking at 1000w and thinking grreat! :P

 

the EVs did look like a better speaker vs the tops, but that sells it really! any recomendations in terms of bins to be looking at?

 

how is that kind of behringer stuff when at it's limit though? i've heard it can kind of start to drop off in quality because they milk their ratings slightly?

 

yeah i'm going to try if i can, playing in pubs and all good stands will be vital! i'm definitely going to ring them up anyway, spending that kind of money they should thro something in! that mixer does come with a flight case too, so that's pretty nice as well. 

[Guest]

oh okay thanks! 

 

i've always rated the loudness of a speaker on power to be honest, was looking at 1000w and thinking grreat! :P

 

the EVs did look like a better speaker vs the tops, but that sells it really! any recomendations in terms of bins to be looking at?

 

how is that kind of behringer stuff when at it's limit though? i've heard it can kind of start to drop off in quality because they milk their ratings slightly?

 

yeah i'm going to try if i can, playing in pubs and all good stands will be vital! i'm definitely going to ring them up anyway, spending that kind of money they should thro something in! that mixer does come with a flight case too, so that's pretty nice as well. 

Personally, not a fan of Behringer bins. Some of the HK stuff is pretty decent as is a lot of the JBL stuff (PRX600, STX and SRX) however they're pretty pricy. I've used the EV ELX118P (powered version of the ELX series) and they're a decent sub - nothing brilliant but a better overall sound especially when pushed when compared to the Behringer stuff. 

 

If you want all out noise, get a Yorkville LS801 or LS801P - one of the loudest prosumer level subs for its price but be warned, it weights a  fair bit and it's great musically.

[Nertballs]

Personally, not a fan of Behringer bins. Some of the HK stuff is pretty decent as is a lot of the JBL stuff (PRX600, STX and SRX) however they're pretty pricy. I've used the EV ELX118P (powered version of the ELX series) and they're a decent sub - nothing brilliant but a better overall sound especially when pushed when compared to the Behringer stuff. 

 

If you want all out noise, get a Yorkville LS801 or LS801P - one of the loudest prosumer level subs for its price but be warned, it weights a  fair bit and it's great musically.

yeah i was looking at the ELX118, but it's definitely out of our price range for the time being, but by the looks of it those tops should do us for now! good thing is, that even though that crowd are in germany, they do free delivery over €195, so we'd be pretty much set.

 

i've one last question, when we mic'd our cajone the last day, it wsa facing out towards the crowd (behind the box i know, but you get me) and seemed to be causing a bit of feedback even though it was well turned down, any recommendations for some thing we could use to get rid of that? different mic maybe, as in a drum one maybe?

 

also, because of lead troubles the last night, we got stuck using XLR to Jack for our mics, and those two mics seemed to not be able to be turned up so much without feedback. could this have been the connections? should we only be using XLRs into preamps? my mic seemed to be fine and i was able to get lots on it. 

 

you really are a wiz at this stuff! thanks very much!

[Guest]

What mics were you using for the cajone and for the vocals? Also, what was your speaker placement like? Were the speakers infront or atleast inline with the front of the stage?