Half Live - Alyx, Tested

[Guest]

The Adam Savage Tested team have been at Valve HQ playing this upcoming game on various VR setups. It really looks  good so far.

 

I found it quite interesting how the different Var systems and controls made a big difference to how well the game was to play and interact with. Maybe in time some of the  control nuances will be ironed out.

[JZStudios]

I'll be honest, I haven't played Half Life, does Alyx have telekinesis or the ability to teleport?

Every time I look at these VR games they all just kind of look the same. You can tell when he's holding the pistol at 6:12 he's got quite a bit of the shakes going on. There's also exactly zero recoil, but adding in recoil when there actually isn't any could potentially be slightly disorienting, but that's what HHH does.

You always (Typically) end up teleporting around, being in confined spaces, or using the force as enemies shuffle towards you.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

I'll be honest, I haven't played Half Life, does Alyx have telekinesis or the ability to teleport?

Every time I look at these VR games they all just kind of look the same. You can tell when he's holding the pistol at 6:12 he's got quite a bit of the shakes going on. There's also exactly zero recoil, but adding in recoil when there actually isn't any could potentially be slightly disorienting, but that's what HHH does.

You always (Typically) end up teleporting around, being in confined spaces, or using the force as enemies shuffle towards you.

It’s not been released yet, this is in an early stage. Half life is 20 years old or something like that and people have been asking for a follow up for years. Hopefully it will live up to the quality of the previous games. Having said that it has been many years since I played half life 2 so there may be some rose tinted nostalgia going on.

[JZStudios]

3 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

It’s not been released yet, this is in an early stage. Half life is 20 years old or something like that and people have been asking for a follow up for years. Hopefully it will live up to the quality of the previous games. Having said that it has been many years since I played half life 2 so there may be some rose tinted nostalgia going on.

It's not going to drastically change that much, it's just a limitation of VR. People get motion sickness so they teleport. Some people walk around with the thumbstick, but most don't. People have limited space, so they have force powers. The tracking isn't pinpoint accurate so it has constant jitters. Anything where you need to use 2 hands to hold an object cause it freak out because your hands aren't in sync and are constantly moving, despite them supposed to be holding on to a rigid object, adding to the jitters.

[Soag]

11 hours ago, JZStudios said:

does Alyx have telekinesis or the ability to teleport?

As far as the video goes both are said or shown to be there.

At 2:10 the guy on the left talks about 'force pulling stuff over'.

At 3:45 you can see the teleportation stuff.

 

If you ask about the game world, there was a gravity gun in HL2, dunno about the teleportation stuff but I highly doubt it.

[Sakkura]

15 hours ago, JZStudios said:

I'll be honest, I haven't played Half Life, does Alyx have telekinesis or the ability to teleport?

Every time I look at these VR games they all just kind of look the same. You can tell when he's holding the pistol at 6:12 he's got quite a bit of the shakes going on. There's also exactly zero recoil, but adding in recoil when there actually isn't any could potentially be slightly disorienting, but that's what HHH does.

You always (Typically) end up teleporting around, being in confined spaces, or using the force as enemies shuffle towards you.

 

15 hours ago, JZStudios said:

It's not going to drastically change that much, it's just a limitation of VR. People get motion sickness so they teleport. Some people walk around with the thumbstick, but most don't. People have limited space, so they have force powers. The tracking isn't pinpoint accurate so it has constant jitters. Anything where you need to use 2 hands to hold an object cause it freak out because your hands aren't in sync and are constantly moving, despite them supposed to be holding on to a rigid object, adding to the jitters.

 

Half-Life 2 has the gravity gun, and in Alyx that kind of functionality has just been put into gloves. So in terms of plot and mechanics, that fits really well with a VR adaptation.

 

Teleportation is not typical, the majority of first-person games default to artificial locomotion. The best ones provide a variety of movement options so people can tailor it to their personal susceptibility to motion sickness. Most people can handle artificial locomotion, especially once they've gotten used to VR.

 

Holding things with two hands tends to make things more stable, not less. It's just that the game is still a work in progress.

 

Also, a flat video of VR gameplay always looks a lot worse than the experience in the headset, just bear that in mind.

[JZStudios]

4 hours ago, Sakkura said:

 

 

Half-Life 2 has the gravity gun, and in Alyx that kind of functionality has just been put into gloves. So in terms of plot and mechanics, that fits really well with a VR adaptation.

 

Teleportation is not typical, the majority of first-person games default to artificial locomotion. The best ones provide a variety of movement options so people can tailor it to their personal susceptibility to motion sickness. Most people can handle artificial locomotion, especially once they've gotten used to VR.

 

Holding things with two hands tends to make things more stable, not less. It's just that the game is still a work in progress.

 

Also, a flat video of VR gameplay always looks a lot worse than the experience in the headset, just bear that in mind.

Then why not just have the gravity gun? Why is Gordon stuck with the worse option? The main point being it's a common thing for VR limitations, at best it has a slight amount of in-world reason for it.

 

Most of the first person VR games I've seen have teleportation because a lot of people get motion sick otherwise.

 

It's supposed to, but if you grab say, a rifle with one hand on the grip and the other on the foregrip, there's no actual physical object in your hands, so it has to do some fuckery and bullshittery when your hands don't sync up properly or you move them too far apart or close together.

 

I'll admit, I've only tried actual VR at an Oculus booth in a Best Buy. I wasn't super impressed. Just because it's more "immersive" doesn't in my book make it a better game. They always tend to end up like the arcade shooting cabinets with a plastic gun and you shoot aliens every time you stop at a checkpoint. It's just not that interesting. I have zero nostalgia for the Half Life series. It just seems like something that could easily not be a VR title, except Valve wants to sell headsets, and it doesn't seem like it would be all that fun.

I'm also just super... weirded out that a big selling point people go on about Boneworks and the Tested guys here is that the game has physics, like that hasn't been a standard thing since 1998. Remember that little indie game called Half Life that had physics, and it's sequel that had better physics?

[Sakkura]

1 hour ago, JZStudios said:

Then why not just have the gravity gun? Why is Gordon stuck with the worse option? The main point being it's a common thing for VR limitations, at best it has a slight amount of in-world reason for it.

 

Most of the first person VR games I've seen have teleportation because a lot of people get motion sick otherwise.

 

It's supposed to, but if you grab say, a rifle with one hand on the grip and the other on the foregrip, there's no actual physical object in your hands, so it has to do some fuckery and bullshittery when your hands don't sync up properly or you move them too far apart or close together.

 

I'll admit, I've only tried actual VR at an Oculus booth in a Best Buy. I wasn't super impressed. Just because it's more "immersive" doesn't in my book make it a better game. They always tend to end up like the arcade shooting cabinets with a plastic gun and you shoot aliens every time you stop at a checkpoint. It's just not that interesting. I have zero nostalgia for the Half Life series. It just seems like something that could easily not be a VR title, except Valve wants to sell headsets, and it doesn't seem like it would be all that fun.

I'm also just super... weirded out that a big selling point people go on about Boneworks and the Tested guys here is that the game has physics, like that hasn't been a standard thing since 1998. Remember that little indie game called Half Life that had physics, and it's sequel that had better physics?

Why should it have the gravity gun? Why not make it more tactile with gravity gloves? It's not a limitation, it's going further because this technology allows things that were not possible before.

 

You haven't been watching if that's still your impression of motion in VR games.

 

Having two hands on the object means it's far more stable as the game engine has a long baseline to work with, rather than just the rotation of one controller.

 

And no, it just doesn't always end up like that.

 

Physics has never been like this before. The vast majority of objects in game worlds are static and cannot be interacted with. Even when you can interact with them, it's usually just canned and with very limited animations etc. When you open a given door in Skyrim, it always opens in exactly the same way. When you open a door in Boneworks, you can turn the handle and gently open it, you can slam it open, whatever you like. And similarly you can fiddle around with all kinds of other objects (even enemies).

 

Half-Life 2 physics were groundbreaking for just letting you pull objects towards you and throw them away. Now you can do a lot more, and it's a next step that fits very well with where the series comes from.

 

It's just too bad we will probably never see the cliffhanger from HL2 episode 2 resolved.

[JZStudios]

2 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

Why should it have the gravity gun? Why not make it more tactile with gravity gloves? It's not a limitation, it's going further because this technology allows things that were not possible before.

Because the gravity gun is a pre established tool/mechanic. This game is a prequel. And it is a limitation, because people don't have massive rooms to play in so they need force powers. It's not like this is the only game that does it. It's an inherent VR limitation.

11 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

You haven't been watching if that's still your impression of motion in VR games.

 

Yes, I have, and most of them still have teleportation. I think you're confusing having them with being the only option. Which is not what I said. And it's another inherent VR limitation, because again, people don't have massive rooms and "artificial locomotion" still makes people sick in a lot of instances. This is a fact. Some people aren't bothered by it, some are. In the case of Thick (Maybe Dora, don't exactly remember) from Neebs Gaming, even when he is teleporting around and standing relatively still he gets very nauseous after 15-20 minutes. 30 tops. The others are much less affected by it.

11 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

Having two hands on the object means it's far more stable as the game engine has a long baseline to work with, rather than just the rotation of one controller.

It can't physically work if you pick up a 3 foot object by either end and bring your hands together until they touch. I can literally see this happening every time someone picks something up with 2 hands and moves them around.

11 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

And no, it just doesn't always end up like that.

It does in every instance I've seen. No one has a massive room yet again, so when people see enemies they stop in a location and slowly shoot all the enemies before moving again. They might make slight movement adjustments or teleport, but it's not like playing anything else with a mouse and keyboard. Alternatively, it's an on rails thing, so they are technically moving, but again this goes back to being like an arcade. If you have any footage of someone playing in VR like Doom Guy, I'd be happy to see it but I've never seen any footage like that.

19 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

Physics has never been like this before. The vast majority of objects in game worlds are static and cannot be interacted with. Even when you can interact with them, it's usually just canned and with very limited animations etc. When you open a given door in Skyrim, it always opens in exactly the same way. When you open a door in Boneworks, you can turn the handle and gently open it, you can slam it open, whatever you like. And similarly you can fiddle around with all kinds of other objects (even enemies).

 

Half-Life 2 physics were groundbreaking for just letting you pull objects towards you and throw them away. Now you can do a lot more, and it's a next step that fits very well with where the series comes from.

Physics have absolutely been like this before, that's a load of total horseshit. Again, Half Life did it in 1998. Or you look at things like Amnesia that do literally everything you mentioned. Just because Assassins Creed doesn't let you pick up fruits from a basket doesn't mean it's anything new. Ironically, the Amnesia sequel drastically reduced the amount of objects you can fiddle with because it adds literally nothing to the game. It makes more sense in VR, sure, but it's not a "Never been done before."

I can't remember the exact game, something stealth like Splinter Cell or Thief let you slowly open doors to peek to a full open, back up to close it, or run through it and kick it open. Granted, I didn't physically "grab" the door handle, but I really couldn't give less of a shit.

 

Half Life 2 physics are probably still what's happening here. Picking up a can and dropping it in a trash bin is the same set of physics as the gravity gloves. It's just the interface changed. Literally the only actual difference is that there's probably more interactable objects, but you could pick stuff up with the Gravity gun and use that to push other objects around, run into a stack of boxes and knock them over, kick cans, etc.

27 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

It's just too bad we will probably never see the cliffhanger from HL2 episode 2 resolved.

I wouldn't know. I feel like if I went into it blind I wouldn't be as invested without the nostalgia.

[Sakkura]

34 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

Because the gravity gun is a pre established tool/mechanic. This game is a prequel. And it is a limitation, because people don't have massive rooms to play in so they need force powers. It's not like this is the only game that does it. It's an inherent VR limitation.

 

Yes, I have, and most of them still have teleportation. I think you're confusing having them with being the only option. Which is not what I said. And it's another inherent VR limitation, because again, people don't have massive rooms and "artificial locomotion" still makes people sick in a lot of instances. This is a fact. Some people aren't bothered by it, some are. In the case of Thick (Maybe Dora, don't exactly remember) from Neebs Gaming, even when he is teleporting around and standing relatively still he gets very nauseous after 15-20 minutes. 30 tops. The others are much less affected by it.

It can't physically work if you pick up a 3 foot object by either end and bring your hands together until they touch. I can literally see this happening every time someone picks something up with 2 hands and moves them around.

It does in every instance I've seen. No one has a massive room yet again, so when people see enemies they stop in a location and slowly shoot all the enemies before moving again. They might make slight movement adjustments or teleport, but it's not like playing anything else with a mouse and keyboard. Alternatively, it's an on rails thing, so they are technically moving, but again this goes back to being like an arcade. If you have any footage of someone playing in VR like Doom Guy, I'd be happy to see it but I've never seen any footage like that.

Physics have absolutely been like this before, that's a load of total horseshit. Again, Half Life did it in 1998. Or you look at things like Amnesia that do literally everything you mentioned. Just because Assassins Creed doesn't let you pick up fruits from a basket doesn't mean it's anything new. Ironically, the Amnesia sequel drastically reduced the amount of objects you can fiddle with because it adds literally nothing to the game. It makes more sense in VR, sure, but it's not a "Never been done before."

I can't remember the exact game, something stealth like Splinter Cell or Thief let you slowly open doors to peek to a full open, back up to close it, or run through it and kick it open. Granted, I didn't physically "grab" the door handle, but I really couldn't give less of a shit.

 

Half Life 2 physics are probably still what's happening here. Picking up a can and dropping it in a trash bin is the same set of physics as the gravity gloves. It's just the interface changed. Literally the only actual difference is that there's probably more interactable objects, but you could pick stuff up with the Gravity gun and use that to push other objects around, run into a stack of boxes and knock them over, kick cans, etc.

I wouldn't know. I feel like if I went into it blind I wouldn't be as invested without the nostalgia.

The gravity gun was a newly developed thing in the HL2 world. Who are you to say there weren't other prototypes of the technology? Just because it's in the same series doesn't mean it absolutely must use the exact same items and mechanics.

 

And yeah it's related to how VR works for the user. The same way flat games are also designed with the strengths and limitations of flat screens and controllers/KB+mouse in mind.

 

Just doubling down on your assertions does not make them correct. You are ignorant of the VR ecosystem.

 

You know you can move while shooting, right? The points you're trying to make here are completely nonsensical.

 

Half-Life 1 did not have this kind of physics. That's a ridiculous claim to make.

 

You couldn't give less of a shit about it, because you're wilfully ignorant of what it means.

[JZStudios]

On 12/20/2019 at 12:49 PM, Sakkura said:

The gravity gun was a newly developed thing in the HL2 world. Who are you to say there weren't other prototypes of the technology? Just because it's in the same series doesn't mean it absolutely must use the exact same items and mechanics.

So let me get this straight... In your mind it makes more sense that there's a clearly more advanced prototype that's small enough to fit on gloves, whereas in the sequel it's a significantly less useful fucking gigantic monstrosity? I mean people bitch about weapon continuity in Halo with Reach weapons looking significantly more "primitive" than Halo 1, but that's progression, not recession, and you jump quite literally directly from the end of Reach to the beginning of Halo 1.

On 12/20/2019 at 12:49 PM, Sakkura said:

And yeah it's related to how VR works for the user. The same way flat games are also designed with the strengths and limitations of flat screens and controllers/KB+mouse in mind.

I get that. I'm saying that currently VR is incredibly limited by tracking accuracy and available space, which not everyone has access to. Everyone has access to a flat panel and doesn't get motion sick running around and there's far less things to have to design around to get it to work in a functional way.

On 12/20/2019 at 12:49 PM, Sakkura said:

Just doubling down on your assertions does not make them correct. You are ignorant of the VR ecosystem.

This isn't a counterargument. This is just saying "You're wrong" with nothing else about it. And while I may not own VR, I have looked into it quite a bit. What I am saying is a fundamental truth. Tell me how you can pick an object up with two hands, pull them together, and not have the object freak out? Real life or in VR. Best it does is just interpolate a straight line between one hand and the other or make one hand let go regardless of whether or not you're still "holding" it.

 

On 12/20/2019 at 12:49 PM, Sakkura said:

You know you can move while shooting, right? The points you're trying to make here are completely nonsensical.

There's this thing with online arguments where people with nothing to actually counter just completely and blatantly misinterpret what was actually said and pretends it's a checkmate. I never said you couldn't. I said the vast majority of people don't because the room their in is too small or they motion sickness, or they don't like the fake movement when they're actually aiming and focusing on that. Literally every video I've seen with VR and any form of shooting, unless people have a massive room they can physically move around in, people stand still and aim and shoot until the immediate sight lines are clear and then they move on. Again, please link me to a video of someone moving around and shooting like in Doom in VR. I could right now post you over 100 videos from different people that all stand still while shooting.

 

On 12/20/2019 at 12:49 PM, Sakkura said:

Half-Life 1 did not have this kind of physics. That's a ridiculous claim to make.

I didn't play it, but for the most part physics are physics. There's actually a pretty small amount of physics calculations at play here, and I'm betting the equations and code are pretty damn similar. If Half Life 1 has boxes you could push around and they tumble and collide with each other, it has the same physics. Half Life 2 certainly had objects you could pick up and toss around, and that's absolutely the same.

 

On 12/20/2019 at 12:49 PM, Sakkura said:

You couldn't give less of a shit about it, because you're wilfully ignorant of what it means.

Okay. I've opened doors in real life, it's not that exciting.

Could you enlighten me as to what it means to open a door?

[Sakkura]

2 hours ago, JZStudios said:

So let me get this straight... In your mind it makes more sense that there's a clearly more advanced prototype that's small enough to fit on gloves, whereas in the sequel it's a significantly less useful fucking gigantic monstrosity? I mean people bitch about weapon continuity in Halo with Reach weapons looking significantly more "primitive" than Halo 1, but that's progression, not recession, and you jump quite literally directly from the end of Reach to the beginning of Halo 1.

I get that. I'm saying that currently VR is incredibly limited by tracking accuracy and available space, which not everyone has access to. Everyone has access to a flat panel and doesn't get motion sick running around and there's far less things to have to design around to get it to work in a functional way.

This isn't a counterargument. This is just saying "You're wrong" with nothing else about it. And while I may not own VR, I have looked into it quite a bit. What I am saying is a fundamental truth. Tell me how you can pick an object up with two hands, pull them together, and not have the object freak out? Real life or in VR. Best it does is just interpolate a straight line between one hand and the other or make one hand let go regardless of whether or not you're still "holding" it.

 

There's this thing with online arguments where people with nothing to actually counter just completely and blatantly misinterpret what was actually said and pretends it's a checkmate. I never said you couldn't. I said the vast majority of people don't because the room their in is too small or they motion sickness, or they don't like the fake movement when they're actually aiming and focusing on that. Literally every video I've seen with VR and any form of shooting, unless people have a massive room they can physically move around in, people stand still and aim and shoot until the immediate sight lines are clear and then they move on. Again, please link me to a video of someone moving around and shooting like in Doom in VR. I could right now post you over 100 videos from different people that all stand still while shooting.

 

I didn't play it, but for the most part physics are physics. There's actually a pretty small amount of physics calculations at play here, and I'm betting the equations and code are pretty damn similar. If Half Life 1 has boxes you could push around and they tumble and collide with each other, it has the same physics. Half Life 2 certainly had objects you could pick up and toss around, and that's absolutely the same.

 

Okay. I've opened doors in real life, it's not that exciting.

Could you enlighten me as to what it means to open a door?

It's not more advanced than the gravity gun...

 

VR is not limited by tracking accuracy. It's also not really limited by its own tracking volume but by how much room people have. You can't seriously suggest it's VR's fault people don't live in mansions.

 

That's projection. I explained why you were wrong, you just reasserted your incorrect claim, and now you're whining because I pointed that out. And you clearly are poorly informed of the state of VR. What you're talking about with moving hands together doesn't make sense for when you're holding a weapon with two hands. Also you're wrong about that simplistic interpolation, there have been more advanced models for quite a while now. It's all up to the game engine.

 

You were wrong to make that claim about the vast majority of people. It's simply not true. Here's the first video hit I got from a search, less than half a minute in you see someone moving while shooting.

 

Physics are not just physics. Being able to move one single object out of a small number of interactable objects in one dimension only and at fixed speeds is not the same as being able to move multiple objects simultaneously in 3 dimensions at variable speed.

 

A door is just one example. Might as well be crawling up a rope and ringing a bell. It feels like you're in a real world when you can do real things in a real way.

[JZStudios]

1 hour ago, Sakkura said:

It's not more advanced than the gravity gun...

It fits in a glove. I'd say that's more advanced.

1 hour ago, Sakkura said:

VR is not limited by tracking accuracy. It's also not really limited by its own tracking volume but by how much room people have. You can't seriously suggest it's VR's fault people don't live in mansions.

Straw man, and once again blatantly misrepresenting what I said instead of providing an actual counterpoint.

1 hour ago, Sakkura said:

That's projection. I explained why you were wrong, you just reasserted your incorrect claim, and now you're whining because I pointed that out. And you clearly are poorly informed of the state of VR. What you're talking about with moving hands together doesn't make sense for when you're holding a weapon with two hands. Also you're wrong about that simplistic interpolation, there have been more advanced models for quite a while now. It's all up to the game engine.

...nope. I re-read the entire discussion so far and you made absolutely zero explanation, the closest would be this;

On 12/20/2019 at 11:44 AM, Sakkura said:

Having two hands on the object means it's far more stable as the game engine has a long baseline to work with, rather than just the rotation of one controller.

Which is not an explanation. It's actually quite literally just saying it's interpolation of two points of data rather than one, which is EXACTLY what I just said. You keep pulling straw mans and misrepresenting what I've said.

In VR there is no physical fucking object in your hands. Both of your hands are completely physically free to move literally anywhere in 3D space while still supposed to be holding an object in VR. It's really not a very complicated concept. And considering how every piece of footage I've seen with people holding objects with two hands portrays erratic movement due to the limitation of VR tracking accuracy (It is NOT 100% accurate, considering it's interpolating data from light sources over video in real time... It's just not going to be 100% accurate) and due to not having a physical objects in their hands so they move freely outside the realm of actual reality.

This leads to, in every instance I've seen, erratic behavior of the object being held, or the game forcing you to drop the object being held, or at least releasing one hand.

1 hour ago, Sakkura said:

You were wrong to make that claim about the vast majority of people. It's simply not true. Here's the first video hit I got from a search, less than half a minute in you see someone moving while shooting.

You show me one trailer from Sony showcasing a very slow movement speed? Brilliant. Very similar to Doom. Not to mention that since a single trailer shows someone moving, that does not by any stretch of the imagination, mean that most people do. This is a false equivalence on top of the straw man argument you keep giving saying that I said NO ONE EVER moves while shooting, or that you can't move while shooting.

Here's a review with actual gameplay. Note that every time he shoots he stops moving, and even though he has a cage for a gun model, how fucking jittery the gun is at 2:30. Frankly I don't understand why they make a gun cage, but don't give it any form of stock to press against your shoulder and actually help stabilize the damn thing.

Here's this guy playing Boneworks, and... yeah, he basically stands still until he shoots everyone.

I can't honestly find much on Boneworks without hours of boring shit and/or just smacking things with blunt objects.

 

Here's Onwards VR, with a guy stating that aiming a rifle in VR with two hands not holding anything doesn't work very well... why does that argument seem familiar?

He's the younger brother of Matt Carriker (Demolition ranch) and plays a lot of Arma and Squad with Karmakut.

I can't really think of any other VR shooter games where your movement speed isn't incredibly low or where it's more than 3 enemies at a time or just a rifle range.

Or things that are literally just arcade shooters where you stand in a spot wave after wave. Or Superhot VR.

2 hours ago, Sakkura said:

Physics are not just physics. Being able to move one single object out of a small number of interactable objects in one dimension only and at fixed speeds is not the same as being able to move multiple objects simultaneously in 3 dimensions at variable speed.

Clearly you don't understand how physics works. The amount of interactable objects does not make it new physics. Boneworks and Half-Life Alyx show nothing new in physics from the Crysis physics demos of old, or even just Havok physics engine.

 

2 hours ago, Sakkura said:

A door is just one example. Might as well be crawling up a rope and ringing a bell. It feels like you're in a real world when you can do real things in a real way.

Okay. Sure, I guess, but I could also just walk up to a ladder in a regular game and hit the button and not look like a tool.

The Oculus demo I did in particular was the mountain climbing thing. It was neat I guess, but it didn't feel like everyone markets it as. I don't feel like I actually climbed a mountain, but I also didn't do YouTuber grunts, so maybe that's part of it. What I bet did happen was I looked like a tool splaying out all over everywhere in the middle of a best buy.

[Sakkura]

2 hours ago, JZStudios said:

It fits in a glove. I'd say that's more advanced.

Straw man, and once again blatantly misrepresenting what I said instead of providing an actual counterpoint.

...nope. I re-read the entire discussion so far and you made absolutely zero explanation, the closest would be this;

Which is not an explanation. It's actually quite literally just saying it's interpolation of two points of data rather than one, which is EXACTLY what I just said. You keep pulling straw mans and misrepresenting what I've said.

In VR there is no physical fucking object in your hands. Both of your hands are completely physically free to move literally anywhere in 3D space while still supposed to be holding an object in VR. It's really not a very complicated concept. And considering how every piece of footage I've seen with people holding objects with two hands portrays erratic movement due to the limitation of VR tracking accuracy (It is NOT 100% accurate, considering it's interpolating data from light sources over video in real time... It's just not going to be 100% accurate) and due to not having a physical objects in their hands so they move freely outside the realm of actual reality.

This leads to, in every instance I've seen, erratic behavior of the object being held, or the game forcing you to drop the object being held, or at least releasing one hand.

You show me one trailer from Sony showcasing a very slow movement speed? Brilliant. Very similar to Doom. Not to mention that since a single trailer shows someone moving, that does not by any stretch of the imagination, mean that most people do. This is a false equivalence on top of the straw man argument you keep giving saying that I said NO ONE EVER moves while shooting, or that you can't move while shooting.

Here's a review with actual gameplay. Note that every time he shoots he stops moving, and even though he has a cage for a gun model, how fucking jittery the gun is at 2:30. Frankly I don't understand why they make a gun cage, but don't give it any form of stock to press against your shoulder and actually help stabilize the damn thing.

Here's this guy playing Boneworks, and... yeah, he basically stands still until he shoots everyone.

I can't honestly find much on Boneworks without hours of boring shit and/or just smacking things with blunt objects.

 

Here's Onwards VR, with a guy stating that aiming a rifle in VR with two hands not holding anything doesn't work very well... why does that argument seem familiar?

He's the younger brother of Matt Carriker (Demolition ranch) and plays a lot of Arma and Squad with Karmakut.

I can't really think of any other VR shooter games where your movement speed isn't incredibly low or where it's more than 3 enemies at a time or just a rifle range.

Or things that are literally just arcade shooters where you stand in a spot wave after wave. Or Superhot VR.

Clearly you don't understand how physics works. The amount of interactable objects does not make it new physics. Boneworks and Half-Life Alyx show nothing new in physics from the Crysis physics demos of old, or even just Havok physics engine.

 

Okay. Sure, I guess, but I could also just walk up to a ladder in a regular game and hit the button and not look like a tool.

The Oculus demo I did in particular was the mountain climbing thing. It was neat I guess, but it didn't feel like everyone markets it as. I don't feel like I actually climbed a mountain, but I also didn't do YouTuber grunts, so maybe that's part of it. What I bet did happen was I looked like a tool splaying out all over everywhere in the middle of a best buy.

It's a glove with much less functionality.

 

Not my fault you can't understand explanations. Read some more, or try it out in practice. It's quite obvious that you're badly wrong.

 

Erratic behavior has other reasons, including imperfectly coded games. You'll find the quality varies from game to game. It's not about the tracking accuracy, because there are tracking systems with submillimeter precision. That's also not to say all tracking systems are equally good though.

 

I don't care about a ton of videos with some youtuber morons. I've shown you a counterexample, conclusively proving your claim wrong.

 

You're still failing to understand what is being explained to you. You can do things with objects in VR that you cannot do in flat games. If you have a grenade you can throw it hard or soft, overhand or underhand, heck you can even put spin on it. In flat games there's basically one way to throw.

[JZStudios]

1 hour ago, Sakkura said:

It's a glove with much less functionality.

As far as I can tell it doesn't shoot things. I wouldn't call that far less.

1 hour ago, Sakkura said:

Not my fault you can't understand explanations. Read some more, or try it out in practice. It's quite obvious that you're badly wrong.

Still not an explanation.

1 hour ago, Sakkura said:

Erratic behavior has other reasons, including imperfectly coded games. You'll find the quality varies from game to game. It's not about the tracking accuracy, because there are tracking systems with submillimeter precision. That's also not to say all tracking systems are equally good though.

I'm sure there's a lot of reasons, but even in the video of HL Alyx tested on the new and improved Valve hardware at their studio you can see erratic behavior when he aims. The PSVR just happens to be exceptionally shit.

As to your claim of them being submillimeter accurate, the best I could find was this on the HTC Vive, and it is absolutely not.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5439658/

Here's a snippet from a Nasa paper;

"The first contribution of this paper is an analysis of Vive’s static precision and dynamic precision and accuracy. We show that although the original system has a sub-millimeter precision with the trackers in a static state, when that state is dynamic, the precision worsens by one order of magnitude. We also show experimentally that the accuracy of this system can vary from a few millimeters up to a meter in a dynamic situation."

I'd paste a link, but it just immediately opens a .pdf document. It's the first result for Googling "How accurate is VR tracking."

There's also this:

https://www.roadtovr.com/analysis-of-valves-lighthouse-tracking-system-reveals-accuracy/

In which a man goes pretty in depth with the tracking accuracy, showcases that the headset has constant drift, and has a stationary accuracy of ~.3mm, which corresponds with NASA's finding. The tracking bounces around by 2mm when one emitter is obstructed.

He further goes on to say that Valve's Lighthouse has a positional accuracy of ~2mm.

Another point worth noting is that the headset runs at a refresh rate of 1000hz and the controllers at 300, so they are a bit less accurate.

1 hour ago, Sakkura said:

I don't care about a ton of videos with some youtuber morons. I've shown you a counterexample, conclusively proving your claim wrong.

Aside from the fact that the videos I provided are all people comfortable with VR and/or real world experience with guns I'd say they're fairly reliable. The guy playing Boneworks I'm pretty sure is from Node or Rocket Jump and is in contact with the devs.

And you didn't conclusively prove me wrong, you showed a single video of slow movement. I asked for a video with fast movement, and showing a single video with some moving slowly and shooting once again does not equate "Most people."

Do you understand how data points and statistics work?

2 hours ago, Sakkura said:

You're still failing to understand what is being explained to you. You can do things with objects in VR that you cannot do in flat games. If you have a grenade you can throw it hard or soft, overhand or underhand, heck you can even put spin on it. In flat games there's basically one way to throw.

I get that. I'm just not that excited about that. Again, I could provide counters to this particular point, but frankly I'm not that amazed by being able to throw things or open doors. Especially when throwing objects in most of the games I've seen is complete shit. But Alyx seems to do it okay.

[Sakkura]

9 hours ago, JZStudios said:

As to your claim of them being submillimeter accurate, the best I could find was this on the HTC Vive, and it is absolutely not.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5439658/

 

Their data and conclusions disagree with you. What they found was a problem with an offset reference plane, which would be problematic for some experiments, but is generally going to be a non-issue for a game to handle. What you were talking about was jitter, which they found very little of:

 

Quote

We examined the tracking precision by measuring the size of sample-to-sample jitter in the reported 3D positions and orientations reported by the Vive. The larger the jitter artifacts, the more visible the they become. RMS jitter is plotted for each of the six measurement components in Figure 6, and median values across tracking space are presented in Table 1. The measured RMS levels for each grid point were averaged across the two facing directions because no systematic differences between facing directions were apparent for any of the measurement components. RMS levels were very low, remaining below 0.02 cm and 0.02° in all cases.

 

Quote

To compare the Vive’s tracking quality with that of a research-grade position and orientation tracking system, we also acquired data from a research-grade WorldViz PPT-X and InertiaCube system.

[...]

Sample-to-sample RMS jitter (Table 1) in positional measures had a very similar magnitude to that of the Vive for jitter along the Z axis and in measured height. RMS along the X axis was however double that of the Vive.

And bear in mind this is with first-gen lighthouses and nearly three year old tracking software.

 

9 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Aside from the fact that the videos I provided are all people comfortable with VR and/or real world experience with guns I'd say they're fairly reliable. The guy playing Boneworks I'm pretty sure is from Node or Rocket Jump and is in contact with the devs.

And you didn't conclusively prove me wrong, you showed a single video of slow movement. I asked for a video with fast movement, and showing a single video with some moving slowly and shooting once again does not equate "Most people."

Do you understand how data points and statistics work?

 

You asked for a video, I gave you literally the first video hit when I searched. Not a cherrypicked one (as it was a pretty crappy example), but the very first hit.

[JZStudios]

3 hours ago, Sakkura said:

Their data and conclusions disagree with you. What they found was a problem with an offset reference plane, which would be problematic for some experiments, but is generally going to be a non-issue for a game to handle. What you were talking about was jitter, which they found very little of:

That's specifically measuring headset tracking, which is more accurate.

And Nasa's findings of the tracking in motion being not that accurate would agree with my point. In any case, it doesn't change the fact that there's a lot of jitter present in VR games, including HL Alyx.

3 hours ago, Sakkura said:

You asked for a video, I gave you literally the first video hit when I searched. Not a cherrypicked one (as it was a pretty crappy example), but the very first hit.

I asked for a video with someone moving like you do in Doom or COD, or any other "traditional" FPS. You did not. You linked me to a very slow moving person in a straight forward line I would equate to as being on rails. I also stated that most people do not move and shoot at the same time. Providing a single video doesn't win that argument when I can offer dozens of counters, regardless of whether they're "Stupid YouTubers" or not.

[Sakkura]

2 hours ago, JZStudios said:

That's specifically measuring headset tracking, which is more accurate.

And Nasa's findings of the tracking in motion being not that accurate would agree with my point. In any case, it doesn't change the fact that there's a lot of jitter present in VR games, including HL Alyx.

HL Alyx has not been released. It's still in development. Also, controllers and headset are tracked the same way with the Lighthouse system.