Windows 7 strange behavior

[leipero]

Hi guys, just registered in hope someone can help.

 

It's a bit ahrd for me to explain problem, so please forgive me if i don't do it properly.

 

When i start program (game to be exact), sometimes it works fine, sometimes it gets "bad load", and this is really puzzling for me, at first, it thought it is every 2nd load (even made a comment about error in zsnesw on some of the Linus afterparties), but it isn't, it is completely random.

 

Now here is and interesting part, because it is most easy for me to detect, i use "zsnesw" emulator for testing. When i use "bcdedit /set onecpu on" command, reboot system, that strange behavior disappear. After i bring back all cores ("bcdedit /deletevalue onecpu"), it happens again.

 

That behavior can be traced over all aplications/games even OS itself (sometimes it works well, sometimes not).

 

Things i did to troubleshoot the problem:

 

Remoced all non Microsoft drivers (except GPU driver).

Disabled all unnecessary services and startup programs (only bare bone Windows services, just few of them, i even go so far to disable hardware detections ervices etc, with only 5-6 left in order for Windows to work)

Removed all programs that are expected to cause that sort of behavior (Visual c++ red. etc.)

My Windows is configured propetly (unparcked cores, HPET OFF etc.)

 

I have KB2645594 and KB2646060 installed for FX CPU. I've tested with different voltages for CPU, NB etc., my system is not overclocked.

 

So, only thing i didn't tested is without MS hotfixes. Any thoughts about what is causing this behavior?

[orangecat]

I don't understand what you asking.

[leipero]

I'm asking if anyone have idea why is this happening? Sometimes games work well, sometimes not. That is basically what i asked but with more information given ;).

[GoodBytes]

So programs runs on random times?, others nothing happens or have some error?

Well, it could be the HDD or SSD that you have is faulty. Or you forgot to install your SATA controller drivers. Or your CPU is busted.

That is based from my understanding on what you are saying, because I don't really understand you exactly.

[dCode]

Hi.  First, lets make sure I understand the problem correctly:

When you start zsnesw (and possibly other programs), sometimes the program works, and sometimes it doesn't.  If you set the system to run on only one virtual processor with bcdedit, the problem goes away.  You want to find out why it is happening and if possible, how tro fix it.  Right?

 

Questions:

1) What is the exact error message?

 

2) Is it only zsnesw that shows the problem?

2a) If it is only zsnesw, is it only with one specific ROM?

 

3) What processor/processors do you have?  Is it a single multi-core processor, or a multi-processor system?

 

4) How much ram do you have?

 

5) How many memory sticks do you have, in which channels? (Don't worry if you don't know).

 

6) Are you running under a VM like VirtualPC or VMWare?

 

 

Tests to run:

1) Run Memtest86 for 24 hours to make sure the problem is not with RAM

 

2) Try to see if the problem is occuring on one specific CPU core:

2a) Set your system to use all CPU's: bcdedit /deletevalue onecpu

2b) Close as many background tasks as possible (Just close applications.  You don't really need to worry about services)

2c) Open Windows task manager and change to the performance tab

2d) Start your game.  Note which core increases in activity.

2e) Repeat this test a few times.  On the times when the game fails, is it always the same core?

 

3) Check your processor core temperatures with a tool like CPUID HWMonitor.  Are any cores running much hotter or cooler than the others (a very cool core could sometimes indicate a core has already overheated and burnt out).

 

 

4) If you set the process affinity through windows task manager does the process fail on a certain core?

4a) Start zsnesw and make sure it starts up correctly

4b) In Windows task manager process tab, right click on the process and select Set affinity

4c) Select only one processor core

4d) Test if the program is still working

4e) Repeat for the other cores, one at a time.  Does one (or more) of the cores cause the game to crash?

 

Things to try (make sure you know what you are doing - static safety, etc...):

1) Make sure your RAM is fully seated

2) Make sure your processor(s) are fully seated

 

Nor sure what it is, but the information above might help narrow it down.

 

Hope this helps,

dCode (Andrew).

[leipero]

So programs runs on random times?, others nothing happens or have some error?

Well, it could be the HDD or SSD that you have is faulty. Or you forgot to install your SATA controller drivers. Or your CPU is busted.

That is based from my understanding on what you are saying, because I don't really understand you exactly.

 

Thanks for replay. mo errors, just sometimes is smooth, sometimes it isn't, sorry, i can't explain it any better, it is completely random.

 

Hi.  First, lets make sure I understand the problem correctly:

When you start zsnesw (and possibly other programs), sometimes the program works, and sometimes it doesn't.  If you set the system to run on only one virtual processor with bcdedit, the problem goes away.  You want to find out why it is happening and if possible, how tro fix it.  Right?

 

Questions:

1) What is the exact error message?

 

2) Is it only zsnesw that shows the problem?

2a) If it is only zsnesw, is it only with one specific ROM?

 

3) What processor/processors do you have?  Is it a single multi-core processor, or a multi-processor system?

 

4) How much ram do you have?

 

5) How many memory sticks do you have, in which channels? (Don't worry if you don't know).

 

6) Are you running under a VM like VirtualPC or VMWare?

 

 

Tests to run:

1) Run Memtest86 for 24 hours to make sure the problem is not with RAM

 

2) Try to see if the problem is occuring on one specific CPU core:

2a) Set your system to use all CPU's: bcdedit /deletevalue onecpu

2b) Close as many background tasks as possible (Just close applications.  You don't really need to worry about services)

2c) Open Windows task manager and change to the performance tab

2d) Start your game.  Note which core increases in activity.

2e) Repeat this test a few times.  On the times when the game fails, is it always the same core?

 

3) Check your processor core temperatures with a tool like CPUID HWMonitor.  Are any cores running much hotter or cooler than the others (a very cool core could sometimes indicate a core has already overheated and burnt out).

 

 

4) If you set the process affinity through windows task manager does the process fail on a certain core?

4a) Start zsnesw and make sure it starts up correctly

4b) In Windows task manager process tab, right click on the process and select Set affinity

4c) Select only one processor core

4d) Test if the program is still working

4e) Repeat for the other cores, one at a time.  Does one (or more) of the cores cause the game to crash?

 

Things to try (make sure you know what you are doing - static safety, etc...):

1) Make sure your RAM is fully seated

2) Make sure your processor(s) are fully seated

 

Nor sure what it is, but the information above might help narrow it down.

 

Hope this helps,

dCode (Andrew).

 

Hi, thanks for replay.

 

No, it woeks always, no error or anything whatsoever, but, sometimes for example in znesw, game is smooth, sometime it isn't, usualy after 2nd loading (even if i reset emulation it happens), but it isn't always every 2nd load, it is random. That is pretty much answer for first question.

 

2. No, i tested it, it works well if is set by afinity on every specific core separately, it only happens when all cores are in use, but every core is stable.

2x. Just tested, it is distributed equally on all cores, with some happen to ahve spike in usage (possible when emulation is started only), no difference where is more load. And i tested now, liuteraly every 2nd load i get stutter, especially in znesw, but sometimes is random.

 

3. Temperatures are fine, at 20-36c on cores (when emulating) and 40c on socket and VRM.

 

4. No, it works fine, and no stutters as i said above, on each core.

 

Ok, basically that all i already did (except core affinity thing, because I'm 100% sure hardware is fine = Linux works well). I did tested on both single and dual channel configurations, and in all separate slots with different modules, no difference. I clean my CPU cooler every months, and it makes no difference.

 

Thanks for suggestions, but I'm pretty sure it is software what causing it, only thing is, i want to know which one? It is maybe something from Microsoft/Windows, I'm unable to test it without hotfixes for FX CPU (it require clean install).

 

And it is connected with CPU, but i can't figure out what is it, hope those information helps, because honestly, i don't get it at all.

 

It happens even in Firefox or windows, sometimes windows minimizing/maximizing are animated well, sometimes not. Hope this information can help even more.

 

EXAMPLES:

When i start windows, start Skype, press "x" to minimize, sometimes animation is perfectly smooth, sometimes it is choppy.

Same goes for every window (no matter if is program or Windows based windows).

Browsing internet, sometimes scrolling is fine, sometimes stuttery on this forum for example.

 

UPDATE:

Even with only one core, stutter in Windows still happens, for example, starting Skype, minimize it, maximize, first few times is smooth, after it stats to stutter. All other windows also, including browser.

[godlikegohan]

have you ever updated your bios.

i read that you may need to update the bios .for the two MS hotfixes to work right

[leipero]

have you ever updated your bios.

i read that you may need to update the bios .for the two MS hotfixes to work right

 

Well, I'm on BIOS version from 2 months ago, there is two new versions that update CPU AGESA Code (my CPU is almost 1 year old, so not for that one), so i doubt it is worth a risk of updateing BIOS, but i could try. Thanks for suggestion, this is really frustrating.

[dCode]

Hmmm.  Interesting.  Well, it's likely contention for some resource in your system.  The key is figuring out which one.

 

1) Normally I'd start by using the per-application CPU history graphs of Sysinternals process explorer, but the latest versions seem to have a bug ( http://forum.sysinternals.com/cpu-history-graphs-are-all-0_topic25930.html ).  If you can find one of the older working versions, turn on the CPU history by right-clicking the column titles, "select columns", and from the process performance tab select "CPU history".  With this, you can watch the usage of multiple processes over time.  When you see the slow performance in your application, quickly look in process explorer, to see which one was consuming CPU time.  You can even look at the threads and performance graphs tabs of the application to drill into the details.  Also, space freezes the output so that you have time to dig.

 

2) I assume by your mention of Visual C++ that you are comfortable with programming tools, so why not try profiling zsnesw and see what resources it is trying to access when the slowdown occurs?  This tool can help, if you don't already have a preferred profiler: ( http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/4847.install-the-windows-performance-toolkit-wpt.aspx )

 

3) Really basic, but worth checking anyway: are your video card and sata drivers up to date?

 

4) Have you tried reproducing this in safe mode + networking?

 

Hope this helps,

dCode (Andrew)

[leipero]

Hmmm.  Interesting.  Well, it's likely contention for some resource in your system.  The key is figuring out which one.

 

1) Normally I'd start by using the per-application CPU history graphs of Sysinternals process explorer, but the latest versions seem to have a bug ( http://forum.sysinternals.com/cpu-history-graphs-are-all-0_topic25930.html ).  If you can find one of the older working versions, turn on the CPU history by right-clicking the column titles, "select columns", and from the process performance tab select "CPU history".  With this, you can watch the usage of multiple processes over time.  When you see the slow performance in your application, quickly look in process explorer, to see which one was consuming CPU time.  You can even look at the threads and performance graphs tabs of the application to drill into the details.  Also, space freezes the output so that you have time to dig.

 

2) I assume by your mention of Visual C++ that you are comfortable with programming tools, so why not try profiling zsnesw and see what resources it is trying to access when the slowdown occurs?  This tool can help, if you don't already have a preferred profiler: ( http://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/4847.install-the-windows-performance-toolkit-wpt.aspx )

 

3) Really basic, but worth checking anyway: are your video card and sata drivers up to date?

 

4) Have you tried reproducing this in safe mode + networking?

 

Hope this helps,

dCode (Andrew)

 

Thanks Andrew, here is the problem, it is not real slowdown, CPU is free at those times, it is just that windows start to stutter..., it's not even a lag. I mentioned Visual C++ red. because some applications require it, i don't have skills for those things, but i know it influence some games i play in bad manner, so i always remove it (all c++ red.), sorry for the confusion.

 

All drivers on my ex system was up to date, and i even picked best ones, i know to optimize system well, so that is most likely not a problem. It is some code in windows or something, or strange system instability (do not makes sense, because of every 2nd load, but again... i really doubt).

 

After unsecessful BIOS update, my motherboard is gone..., i have to RMA it. I did set my older system (old, old) with Windows XP, and everything is flawless.

 

I do regret the day i moved to Windows 7. This almost 10 years old PC feels and work better than any system in the meantime (in those 10 years), so, when RMA comes, i will continue to troubleshoot this problem, because I'm sick of it, 10 years old system with slow HDD feels faster then new system with SSD on Win 7..., that is just instane, and unlike those new systems, it works contant without randomness...

 

Thanks anyway, i will need your help guys when i get PC back, till then, let's rest this topic, ofc. suggestions are welcome, but i can't test them now.

 

All best.

[dCode]

I'm really sorry to hear that.  Hope everything goes well with the RMA.

 

Windows 7 can run well.  It's one of Microsoft's better OS attemps.  But It's still an MS product, and they have earned their reputation for inconsistency.

 

Some other, simpler thjings to try when your computer is whole again:

1) Scan for viruses.  Viruses can be using the disk in the background, preventing foreground applications from executing smoothly, because the application is forced to wait for the disk.

2) Make sure that Windows Defender is disabled (unless that is the virus scanner you use).  I have seen Defender silently re-enabled many times by patch Tuesday patches.  This can interfere with another virus scanner, or simply slow down disk access all on its own.

3) Uninstall the Windows indexing service.  Simply stopping the service is not enough.  Control panel -> Programs and features -> Turn windows features on or off -> Indexing service.  The reason for this is that if an application accesses an indexable location, Windows may start the service.   The indexing service can block or slow down access to files while it re-indexes the location, which it constantly seems to do.  You loose a bit of file search functionality, but I always disable this on my computers.

 

dCode (Andrew)

[godlikegohan]

sorry to here the bios update went bad.

do you think you had the wrong bios update.

or do you think you had the wrong bios update utility.

 

if you clear the cmos ..you may be able to get back into the bios. and use the motherboards on-board

flash utility. to install the bios update

i have had bios updates go bad for no reason  at all

[leipero]

I'm really sorry to hear that.  Hope everything goes well with the RMA.

 

Windows 7 can run well.  It's one of Microsoft's better OS attemps.  But It's still an MS product, and they have earned their reputation for inconsistency.

 

Some other, simpler thjings to try when your computer is whole again:

1) Scan for viruses.  Viruses can be using the disk in the background, preventing foreground applications from executing smoothly, because the application is forced to wait for the disk.

2) Make sure that Windows Defender is disabled (unless that is the virus scanner you use).  I have seen Defender silently re-enabled many times by patch Tuesday patches.  This can interfere with another virus scanner, or simply slow down disk access all on its own.

3) Uninstall the Windows indexing service.  Simply stopping the service is not enough.  Control panel -> Programs and features -> Turn windows features on or off -> Indexing service.  The reason for this is that if an application accesses an indexable location, Windows may start the service.   The indexing service can block or slow down access to files while it re-indexes the location, which it constantly seems to do.  You loose a bit of file search functionality, but I always disable this on my computers.

 

dCode (Andrew)

 

Thanks Andrew, yeah, i actually enjoy this old machine on XP for a change, only problem is, it is a bit slow for daily tasks at this time.

 

Those are all good suggestions, viruses i do periadocal scan, but sisn't had one in last few years etc.,  windows defender was disabled, but i will have that on mind, for indexing, i didn't know that disabling that service is not enough, but again, i also manualy turned it off for all my drives, thanks for useful info anyway, will do that when/if they replace motherboard. I don't use search, so no loss for me ;).

 

I updated who knows how meny boards, and this is first time it happened to me. Even on this very same motherboard, i did BIOS update few times (on manifacturer recom.), if is not Windows problem, i suspect that motherboard was faulty from begining.

 

Thank you.

[leipero]

sorry to here the bios update went bad.

do you think you had the wrong bios update.

or do you think you had the wrong bios update utility.

 

if you clear the cmos ..you may be able to get back into the bios. and use the motherboards on-board

flash utility. to install the bios update

 

Well, with BIOS on motherboards nowdays, it is hard to go wrong, anyway, i did BIOS update few times before on this motherboard, so yeah, it was not my mistake ;).

 

I cleared CMOS, removed battery even, nothing, it is bricked as far as i can see. But anyways, probably it was something wrong with it from the begining, will see when/if they replace, and that would be even more insane if they don't want to replace, because tech support reccommended me to do BIOS update few months ago (other problems, connected with Linux).

 

Anyway, thanks for input, will see, and will let you guys know how it was when they send back, or when i get new one, i had to deliver them tomorow forst :P.

[godlikegohan]

if they don't replace it.

 

you could try removing the memory .some times this helps bring the bios to life

so you can update it

one time. after a bad bios update

i had to remove the cpu  and install a slower one .to get the bios back up

 

i think your doing it the right way. by trying to  rma it .

 

what model board is it. .newer mother boards sometimes have a switch because they have 2 bios's on the board.

 

i love the newer boards .you can plug a flash drive into usb port with a bios update on it

.and push a button on back of board. and update bios .even if board will not boot

[leipero]

if they don't replace it.

 

you could try removing the memory .some times this helps bring the bios to life

so you can update it

one time. after a bad bios update

i had to remove the cpu  and install a slower one .to get the bios back up

 

i think your doing it the right way. by trying to  rma it .

 

what model board is it. .newer mother boards sometimes have a switch because they have 2 bios's on the board.

 

i love the newer boards .you can plug a flash drive into usb port with a bios update on it

.and push a button on back of board. and update bios .even if board will not boot

 

Will see, it's MSI 970A-G46, it don't have dual BIOS, and no switch, and tbh i will not even bother with that, if they don't replace it, i will get another one, but they should, MSI supprt rec. BIOS update anyways...

 

3 problems i had with this board, Linux crashing, BIOS crashing sometimes (luckily you don't spend much time in BIOS, just to set things up), and final, that 2nd load stutter (tho, it is most probably software problem), even if they replace it, i will most likely get rid of it.

 

And after spending some time with this old machine, i can only say WOW (and i mean it), it's smooth, very smooth in Windows. And for 3D, even games at 20FPS are smooth compared to those new systems, eg. 20FPS on this old system feels like 30 or more on newer ones..., and I'm not talking only about systems i had, both AMD and Intel. Something gone terible wrong with software/hardware in newer PC's.

 

Now is even mroe frustrating that 8-10 years old system (Athlon 64) works better (not faster) than any new i ahd contact with :) lol.

[GoodBytes]

Well all these issues you are not suppose to have, or even accept. So something is wrong with the board.

[leipero]

Well all these issues you are not suppose to have, or even accept. So something is wrong with the board.

Agree, either board or RAM, because same things happen on few other motherboards (and different RAM), either you ahve to pay premium for decent quality components, or MS is doing something fishy. But this old PC is far away from premium price (at it's time), and it works flawless.

Will see when they replace, or when i get new one. Thank you.

Motherboard had some problems, but it is def. Windows 7 problem, since it happens on all PC's i tested (less or more notable). If i find solution, will bump this thread.

 

For zsnes, it has some bugs...

Edited July 10, 2013 by leipero

[leipero]

UPDATE:

 

I solved this problem "I created"....

 

Installed AMD catalyst suite (without Audio driver as suggested in another topic, didn't changed anything tho.).

Disabled AMD FUEL service (because it creates lag on my system)

Let Catalyst Control Center to start every time with Windows.

Didn't disabled AMD External Events Utility.

Removed overclock (no longer needed) and bring back all settings on auto except core voltage (for less heat).

 

No more 2nd/random bad load that is that much notable (it is still there probably, but solved by AMD suite running).

 

Everything runs better now, Windows 2D is almost fixed (masked) with recommended windows updates from few weeks ago, it works good now (just changed timer resolution by that update).

 

So, it is solved.

 

For znes, partly, problem was wrong timer resolution, and Catalyst fix that also.