Z97 thoughts.

[Sauron]

So I was watching a

on a high end z97 motherboard, and suddenly I had this thought. In the last few iterations of intel cpus, every socket and chipset has been compatible with a "tock" architecture and the following die shrink. However, with haswell it's going to be different. If you have a z87 chipset (as most haswell users do), you probably won't be able to upgrade to broadwell. In fact, even though asus managed to find a workaround for SOME boards, you can't even upgrade to the haswell refresh, which is STILL haswell, never mind broadwell. So if you bought a pentium or i3 cpu as a placeholder waiting for the fifth gen and to have more money, now you're stuck with more, pre-refresh haswell, which is better than nothing, but less than optimal. We have grown accustomed to the socket change cycle (as opposed to amd's policy of sticking to the same socket forever) because newer chipsets and sockets bring new functionality and more potential to the boards, but in the case of a die shrink it's not necessary. Of course a new chipset is welcome, but not at the cost of retrocompatibility. So what do you guys think? Is intel moving towards completely eliminating crossgenerational compatibility? Do you feel it's a big loss? Personally I didn't get an ivy bridge to substitute my sandy, but my sandy is a very high end version (i7 2600), so I would feel the need to upgrade much less than others. Thoughts.

[Askew]

I would point out that if you have sandy bridge 1155 on a P67 there is still virtually no reason to upgrade to Z97 1150 in terms of performance, the only major differences are features.

 

I think it's more about providing incremental updates to featureset, and which one you land on is just a case of when you buy.

 

Given the sub 10% difference in performance between what is now literally a whole handful of chipsets and CPUs, I don't mind them swapping things so much because I'm not missing out on enough each time for it to really bother me.

[Sauron]

I would point out that if you have sandy bridge 1155 on a P67 there is still virtually no reason to upgrade to Z97 1150 in terms of performance, the only differences are features.

 

I think it's more about providing incremental updates to featureset, and which one you land on is just a case of when you buy.

 

Indeed, I completely agree. But suppose I had a sandy bridge i3, at this point I might be wanting to reach for the sky with an i7. And I'd be stuck with another sandy if ivy wasn't intercompatible, which isn't a huge deal, but still it's irritating.

[Askew]

Indeed, I completely agree. But suppose I had a sandy bridge i3, at this point I might be wanting to reach for the sky with an i7. And I'd be stuck with another sandy if ivy wasn't intercompatible, which isn't a huge deal, but still it's irritating.

 

Even if you were, a 2600K is still more or less on par with the latest chips, sure it has a bit less IPC but it's not a crazy amount and you're probably going to save that ~10% at least on the price of the chip if you're buying it now.

[Sauron]

Even if you were, a 2600K is still more or less on par with the latest chips, sure it has a bit less IPC but it's not a crazy amount and you're probably going to save that ~10% at least on the price of the chip if you're buying it now.

 

true. maybe I'm worrying for nothing. but what if there is a real jump in performance at a certain point? maybe as a consequence of a die shrink they manage to make a breakthrough that allows them a 50% performance increase on the last "tock" and the tock adopters are prevented from upgrading without a new mobo.

[brownninja97]

I dont understand the z97 age, all of the boards look worse apart from asrock, gigabyte did the stupid eye thing, asus well they got better but thats because anything was better then that gold crap and msi ditched the dragons which lots of people liked. Afterthat the only upgrade was the addition of the sata express which is likely to be expensive for a while before you will be able to buy it at a decent price, ill likely be getting a standard ssd instead  as the price gets more reasonable.

[Askew]

true. maybe I'm worrying for nothing. but what if there is a real jump in performance at a certain point? maybe as a consequence of a die shrink they manage to make a breakthrough that allows them a 50% performance increase on the last "tock" and the tock adopters are prevented from upgrading without a new mobo.

 

When and if that happens, then worry about it, at the moment nothing of the sort has happened.

[Wesley219]

I guess I'll stick with my 4770k.

[airdeano]

only time to possibly move would be on the newer Skylake architecture, but it'll

deffo have to be 30% better than sandy bridge to compensate for the expense

to follow. new CPU (socket LGA 1151), new mobo and new RAM (DDR4).

[Sauron]

only time to possibly move would be on the newer Skylake architecture, but it'll

deffo have to be 30% better than sandy bridge to compensate for the expense

to follow. new CPU (socket LGA 1151), new mobo and new RAM (DDR4).

 

I'm waiting for at least twice the performance

[airdeano]

I'm waiting for at least twice the performance

 

doubt that even happen at the refresh of Skylake (2015) - Cannonlake (2016).

but never hurts to wish...

[Sauron]

doubt that even happen at the refresh of Skylake (2015) - Cannonlake (2016).

but never hurts to wish...

 

I have time ^^ my 2600 is still very much alive and kicking and it rarely runs at full load anyway.

[airdeano]

I have time ^^ my 2600 is still very much alive and kicking and it rarely runs at full load anyway.

 

i'd be running my 2700k, but twerked the CPU socket with a delidded 3770k

and it has been down since. already sent MIVE-Z to have pins fixed, but three

pins are non-functional (RAM). ASUS wants $120 plus part to repair three pins.

[Sauron]

i'd be running my 2700k, but twerked the CPU socket with a delidded 3770k

and it has been down since. already sent MIVE-Z to have pins fixed, but three

pins are non-functional (RAM). ASUS wants $120 plus part to repair three pins.

 

If you don't use it, can I have the 2700k?

Either way I'm sorry for you, it's such a waste of a good board and two good cpus

[Dimwitted]

It's a voltage thing. With 88W tdp instead of the 84W tdp of Haswell, Devil's Canyon is just different enough to screw up a reference design board. If you watch Jayztwocents you'll know that when he dropped a 4790K into a z87 Gigabyte board it went nuts and tried to fry the chip. If you're running anything from the last 3 gens of Intel, it's not worth an upgrade if you're close on cores. Going to an i5 or 7 from an i3 is worth it but, duh.

Right now, we're at a sweet spot in hardware. There's *nothing* that pushing it. Nothing is processor bound, a memory hog or really pushing the limits in graphics even. I would say this will last until the end of 2015 or into 2016.

Another thing I noticed. Both ASUS and EVGA have dropped support for the PS2 serial port. It's just USB now. Look around and see how many keyboards and old mice you have that can be pulled out at a moments notice if your main shit breaks. Handy until you have nothing to plug into.

[Bagmup]

It's a voltage thing. With 88W tdp instead of the 84W tdp of Haswell, Devil's Canyon is just different enough to screw up a reference design board. If you watch Jayztwocents you'll know that when he dropped a 4790K into a z87 EVGA board it went nuts and tried to fry the chip. If you're running anything from the last 3 gens of Intel, it's not worth an upgrade if you're close on cores. Going to an i5 or 7 from an i3 is worth it but, duh.

 

Right now, we're at a sweet spot in hardware. There's *nothing* that pushing it. Nothing is processor bound, a memory hog or really pushing the limits in graphics even. I would say this will last until the end of 2015 or into 2016.

  

That was a Gigabyte board.

Another thing I noticed. Both ASUS and EVGA have dropped support for the PS2 serial port. It's just USB now. Look around and see how many keyboards and old mice you have that can be pulled out at a moments notice if your main shit breaks. Handy until you have nothing to plug into.

My Asus Z97i has a PS2 serial port..

[Faceman]

It was a Gigabyte board that JayzTwoCents had problems with., and many others are also having issues with Gigabyte motherboards not working with their DC processors.

 

     I would like to point out, that Devil's Canyon is compatible with Z87 with a BIOS update, and you don't even need an old processor to do the BIOS update if your motherboard has BIOS Flashback feature like Asus does.  Broadwell is going to work on Z97, so if it physically fits into a Z97 motherboard, it will physically fit into a Z87 motherboard, and again, with a BIOS update, Broadwell will in all-likelihood work with Z87.  Of course Intel will not back or endorse Z87 working with DC or Broadwell because of the 88 vs. 84 TDP, but that doesn't mean it wont work, it still does.  Intel is trying to cover its ass and avoid liability, no where do they say it wont work, its just not "optimal."

[Niralim]

This!

 

Z87 is like Z97. There are more articles around that Broadwell might be able to work with Z87, which completely makes sense. Now  with the latest BIOS update the only difference between Z87 and Z97 is the name. Same socket, same quality, 95% same features and same CPU compatibility (Haswell and Haswell Refresh). If Intel wants to sell more chips then Broadwell will be compatible with Z87 Boards, which perfectly makes sense. My guess is that Intel will handle Z87/Z97 as one (Broadwell) and then it will focus to 1151 (Skylake) as well.

[Dimwitted]

Oh I agree! The Intel guy that Linus interviewed admitted the same thing. That said there's no guarantee that your board will work even if the vast majority do. It's pure CYA but even so, if your board is that close, there's really no need to go to the DC chip in the first place. I've moved to a DC from a Core2Duo and it's not that big of a jump performance wise. Going to a SSD was far, far more important.