Speaker connection

[Fendrick]

8 minutes ago, Kamranbites said:

While ordering  i ordered it without power supply as it was way less 19v 4a. so i ordered charger separately which is 20v 10A HP adaptor 

200w should be fine, definitely can power 200w.

[Fendrick]

4 minutes ago, cmndr said:

As an FYI, most amps want a very specific power input. It's possible that 20V input would work (not sure about your unit) but it could also slowly be destroying the amp. Check your amp's  power specificiations. 

With audio stuff, more stuff is NOT better. 

You probably only need 10W of amplification for bookshelf speakers. 200W makes sense for a subwoofer or a series of tactile transducers. 

I think you need to learn friend.

 

The amp I used.

 

"It made almost every watt of power that supply could provide, incredibly efficient, would love to see this unit again with beefier power brick!!!"

[cmndr]

2 minutes ago, Kamranbites said:

And that bottom speaker are not one both are separate bookshelf speakers just for better view i have placed them that way 

Im aware. That was why I referenced comb filtering. 

Some of the sound from the two nearby speakers is going to cancel out. 

 

In the chart above there's bad comb filtering. Ideally the speakers being measured can play sound equally loud at all frequencies. It's lower in this picture at 600Hz, 1800Hz, 2800Hz, etc.... It's kind of a repeating pattern of the sound just getting sucked out because the speakers are canceling each other out. 

[Fendrick]

Just now, cmndr said:

Im aware. That was why I referenced comb filtering. 

Some of the sound from the two nearby speakers is going to cancel out. 

 

In the chart above there's bad comb filtering. Ideally the speakers being measured can play sound equally loud at all frequencies. It's lower in this picture at 600Hz, 1800Hz, 2800Hz, etc.... It's kind of a repeating pattern of the sound just getting sucked out because the speakers are canceling each other out. 

If he separates the ones in the midd to just be right left like the other 2 it would be fine.

[Kamranbites]

1 minute ago, Fendrick said:

If he separates the ones in the midd to just be right left like the other 2 it would be fine.

I can just put 1 speaker above one and same on right it will be fine but i don't understand keeping bottom speaker close is any problem ? 

[cmndr]

Just now, Fendrick said:

I think you need to learn friend.

 

 

10W with an 85W/m/w efficiency speaker is enough to play the speakers at 85dB from 3 meters away with about 10% to spare. 
Most people don't listen that loud or from that far. 

I have two class D amps in my room, one for my top rear atmos speakers and one which is powering 3 tactile transducers (rumblers) under my couch. 
The amp for the speakers is cold to the touch, the amp for the bass transducers gets slightly warm but is still mostly cool.

[Fendrick]

Just now, Kamranbites said:

I can just put 1 speaker above one and same on right it will be fine but i don't understand keeping bottom speaker close is any problem ? 

It just messes with the stereo image from the speakers since it is a stereo amp you are using.

[cmndr]

6 minutes ago, Fendrick said:

If he separates the ones in the midd to just be right left like the other 2 it would be fine.

It'd be fine(less bad) if they were around 1.5-2 meters (5-7 feet) apart from each other.

Note that if OP is output limited (probably not), there is a decent argument for placing the second set of speakers at the far opposite end of the room, or on the far/left right on the walls. Not ideal but I've used "all channel stereo" before and it's OK. 

[Fendrick]

2 minutes ago, cmndr said:

10W with an 85W/m/w efficiency speaker is enough to play the speakers at 85dB from 3 meters away with about 10% to spare. 
Most people don't listen that loud or from that far. 

I have two class D amps in my room, one for my top rear atmos speakers and one which is powering 3 tactile transducers (rumblers) under my couch. 
The amp for the speakers is cold to the touch, the amp for the bass transducers gets slightly warm but is still mostly cool.

Yes that is speaker efficiency, but an efficient speaker at just 10w at say 95DB sensitivity will still be a lot quiter than a speaker with a 125w rating at just 88 DB.

Speaker enclosure matters, more ower = more power and output so long as the speaker can handle it.

[Kamranbites]

10 minutes ago, cmndr said:

As an FYI, most amps want a very specific power input. It's possible that 20V input would work (not sure about your unit) but it could also slowly be destroying the amp. Check your amp's  power specificiations. 

With audio stuff, more stuff is NOT better. 

You probably only need 10W of amplification for bookshelf speakers. 200W makes sense for a subwoofer or a series of tactile transducers. 

My amplifier supports wide range 12v to 24 and amps no restriction but ideal is you connect 200w to it it's your wish of combination of volts and amps 

[cmndr]

5 minutes ago, Fendrick said:

Yes that is speaker efficiency, but an efficient speaker at just 10w at say 95DB sensitivity will still be a lot quiter than a speaker with a 125w rating at just 88 DB.

Speaker enclosure matters, more ower = more power and output so long as the speaker can handle it.

85db/m/w are usually considered low efficiency. I used that to be conservative.
You're right about total output, but an 85dB/m/w speaker with 125w going though it will be playing at ~106dB from 1m away (103dB at 2m) which is permanent hearing damage territory. 

Even 85dB is unpleasant. 

 

 

There's a reason most amp reviews focus on features, build quality and how clean their signals are. Going from 100w to 200W is only 3dB more output (sounds roughly 30% louder)

 

[Fendrick]

Just now, cmndr said:

85db/m/w are usually considered low efficiency. I used that to be conservative.
You're right about total output, but an 85dB/m/w speaker with 125w going though it will be playing at ~106dB from 1m away (103dB at 2m) which is permanent hearing damage territory. 

Even 85dB is unpleasant. 

It's a nice guide and a good one to stick to but everyones ears are different, different sized ear holes, different shaped ears, they make huge differences in how we personally perceive sound and at volume too.

Theory has this habit of not always working in practice.

[cmndr]

6 minutes ago, Fendrick said:

It's a nice guide and a good one to stick to but everyones ears are different, different sized ear holes, different shaped ears, they make huge differences in how we personally perceive sound and at volume too.

Theory has this habit of not always working in practice.

As an FYI I have a calibrated measurement microphone and have fine tuned the heck out of EVERYTHING. I'm usually listening to music at -30dB from reference and movies at -10 to -20dB from reference level. 

https://www.amazon.com/miniDSP-UMIK-1-Measurement-Calibrated-Microphone/dp/B00N4Q25R8

If you don't mind me asking, when was the last time you measured anything in your chain (either sound output or power draw from the wall)?

I'm going off of hard measurements and first hand experience along with the "theory" you're critiquing. 

Have you ever measured power draw/loudness?  


I want to circle back to my point - I highly doubt OP is limited by loudness. If he is, then he'd gain from repositioning one of the speaker pairs. Though depending on the room one possible side effect to be aware of is that some songs have an echo effect This song "echo"s in my room if I'm outside of my primary listening position and using anything other than the L+R speakers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5syUvHEQcv8

[Fendrick]

Just now, cmndr said:

As an FYI I have a calibrated measurement microphone and have fine tuned the heck out of EVERYTHING. I'm usually listening to music at -30dB from reference and movies at -10 to -20dB from reference level. 

https://www.amazon.com/miniDSP-UMIK-1-Measurement-Calibrated-Microphone/dp/B00N4Q25R8

If you don't mind me asking, when was the last time you measured anything in your chain (either sound output or power draw from the wall)?

I'm going off of hard measurements and first hand experience along with the "theory" you're critiquing. 

Have you ever measured power draw/loudness?  

Yes, my ears do that.

[cmndr]

1 minute ago, Fendrick said:

Yes, my ears do that.

What number did your ears say?

As an FYI you can use your phone for an "okish" decibel meter. 
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/noise/app.html

[Fendrick]

Just now, cmndr said:

What number did your ears say?

As an FYI you can use your phone for an "okish" decibel meter. 
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/noise/app.html

My ears tell me when things are too loud or I get a complaint from my neighbor.

 

I have very small ear holes so I tend to enjoy sound louder than some folks and this is likely due to ear canal diameter, I also have small ears, I also tend to push for a heightened treble, though that depends on what I am using.

[cmndr]

Have you c

8 minutes ago, Fendrick said:

My ears tell me when things are too loud or I get a complaint from my neighbor.

 

I have very small ear holes so I tend to enjoy sound louder than some folks and this is likely due to ear canal diameter, I also have small ears, I also tend to push for a heightened treble, though that depends on what I am using.

It's possible you've damaged your hearing. 

With that said, your theory on what you hear isn't validated with measurements. 

While I acknowledge it's limited I'm currently ~2m from my speakers and am watching a show at "comfortable" loudness levels. I'm hovering around 40-48dB most of the time and peaked at 57.4dB. If I added an extra +20dB headroom to that (77.4dB) This would match to roughly to my Polk R200 speakers drawing around 1/3rd of a watt at 77.4dB (and 1/300th of a watt at 57.4 and 1/3000th of a watt around 47dB). Even if I 10x that (speaker manufacturers usually underweight bass) I'm barely at the limit of the 150W amplifier in my AVR. Other parts in the AVR draw a lot more power though, and it's class AB instead of D so there's a lot more waste power, but that's another topic. 

[Fendrick]

Just now, cmndr said:

Have you c

It's possible you've damaged your hearing. 

While I acknowledge it's limited I'm currently ~2m from my speakers and am watching a show at "comfortable" loudness levels. I'm hovering around 40-48dB most of the time and peaked at 57.4dB. If I added an extra +20dB headroom to that (77.4dB) This would match to roughly to my Polk R200 speakers drawing around 1/3rd of a watt at 77.4dB (and 1/300th of a watt at 57.4 and 1/3000th of a watt around 47dB). Even if I 10x that (speaker manufacturers usually underweight bass) I'm barely at the limit of the 150W amplifier in my AVR. 

The noise floor of the room I am in is like 41 DB lol.

I have an AVR and perceieve volume 0 as very loud, -30 is comfortable.

[cmndr]

1 minute ago, Fendrick said:

The noise floor of the room I am in is like 41 DB lol.

I have an AVR and perceieve volume 0 as very loud, -30 is comfortable.

Assuming it's Denon/marantz we're probably listening at around the same levels. 
Assuming that the phone app is accurate, my noise floor is ~25dB, which usually means I can get away with listening at around 16dB software for the same effect. 

I also have my listening position surrounded by accoustic panels, foam and sound dampening curtains, so that probably helps by 3-5dB. 

[Fendrick]

Just now, HenrySalayne said:

Ok, this is a common audio myth:

"Volume" dials (pots and faders) don't set the volume. They influence the volume, but they don't set it. You can have ear-drum-piercing volume levels with dials almost completely turned off and you can have whisper-quiet speakers with the volume dial completely cranked up. You cannot use a volume dial for reference.

Theory again and semantics, no.

[Kamranbites]

1 hour ago, cmndr said:

Assuming it's Denon/marantz we're probably listening at around the same levels. 
Assuming that the phone app is accurate, my noise floor is ~25dB, which usually means I can get away with listening at around 16dB software for the same effect. 

I also have my listening position surrounded by accoustic panels, foam and sound dampening curtains, so that probably helps by 3-5dB. 

My speakers specs 

[Kamranbites]

1 hour ago, cmndr said:

Assuming it's Denon/marantz we're probably listening at around the same levels. 
Assuming that the phone app is accurate, my noise floor is ~25dB, which usually means I can get away with listening at around 16dB software for the same effect. 

I also have my listening position surrounded by accoustic panels, foam and sound dampening curtains, so that probably helps by 3-5dB. 

Attached orginal amplifier aiwa and Kenwood rated specs 

[Kamranbites]

15 minutes ago, Fendrick said:

Theory again and semantics, no.

Specs of my speakers and amplifier orignal aiwa and Kenwood and what do you suggest should I contact them both in series or parallel or i should disconnect Kenwood speaker and run only 2 what is your suggestion 

[Fendrick]

4 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

They already made fun of people like you in the 80s, so please please spare us your "wisdom".

You probably won't get this joke:

 

1080P is 2k, you are the same pedantic people. Even though everyone knows it as 1080P.

[Kamranbites]

4 hours ago, cmndr said:

That's about as bad as it could get from a comb filtering perspective. I had initially thought you were putting the speakers in kind of a corner layout (which isn't the worst thing in the world) or with one pair at front and one pair on the sides. Something like this based off of the official dolby spec (which is what movies assume is the layout when they do mastering for home theater set ups). https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/about/support/guide/setup-guides/5.1-virtual-speakers-setup/5_1_spkrplc.jpg?width=2880&quality=80




You basically get all the "bad things" mentioned in this topic but way worse since the effect is MORE than doubled up.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/what-disadvantage-to-using-two-bookshelf-speakers-as-a-single-center-channel.1424389/


Imagine a mono signal (same signal going to the left and the right channels - basically any time when there's a voice). On the bottom set of speakers you'll have noise cancellation at a different set of frequencies (imagine deep gaps in the sound at say 500Hz, 1000Hz, 2000Hz, 4000Hz, 8000Hz, 16000Hz, etc) because of wave cancellations. Now imagine the top two speakers have gaps at 800Hz, 1600Hz, 3200Hz, 6400Hz, 12800Hz.... now imaging the top left and the center left (along with the mirrored pair) has gaps at 600Hz, 1200Hz, 2400Hz, 4800Hz, 9600Hz, 19200Hz... Now imagine the top left and the right speaker have gaps at 700Hz, 1400Hz, 2800Hz, 5600Hz, 11200Hz...

It's basically going to be a mess. This doesn't even touch on the peaks (not as much of an issue, it's only +3dB). 
Also there might be some mismatches due to difference in group delay.

Your sound's wave form is going to be a muddy, spiky, smeared mess relative to just using the two best speakers. 

You'd be better off disconnecting the bottom speakers and using them as speaker stands for the top speakers. 

If you want to fact check that try playing this - Ideally everything is very close to the same loudness after around 200Hz or so. If there's gaps or sudden loudness spikes... that's comb filtering. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWkekP1f1Z4

--------------------------------------------

Not fully related to the above but your sound stage and imaging is going to be messed up by the "fake" center. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CuJqtNdcJU

Compare that song using headphones vs 2 speakers (you should be able to close your eyes and pin point the location of objects) vs 2 speakers twice. 

Tested your both YouTube videos the sound looks good when 4 speakers are connected together the left right movement song looks more realistic when 4 speakers are connected audio looks like moving left to right slowly but when only pair is connected it doesn't look relastic