Maxxie

That last part is exactly the point - it's not a conspiracy, it's a conception about women in general. Statistically HR departments and managerial boards prefer to promote men, pay men more, and pass women up on raises more frequently. I really don't get what's so controversial about this

Nobody is trying to, but there is data for all levels of pay, if you look for it - female directors get paid less than male directors. http://www.equalpayportal.co.uk/statistics/

I'm not trying to force women into STEM But you have raised another interesting point - why are there far more men in more lucrative careers? It's certainly an interesting thing to discuss. I don't get why this issue causes so much backlash though, I get that the idea that there is still inequality in the world is offensive, but rather than denying it, isn't it better to attempt to fix it? Also, unadjusted is a statistical term - it doesn't make it irrelevant, it just means that it's represented in a linear regression rather than as a multiple regression. Of course, the data could certainly be improved, but as I said - that was just a 5 minute google. You have this weird idea about STEM fields that they're aggressive, don't know where you got that from but it's not really that true. You may need to be aggressive when you're studying, and in your ambition, but it's not a particularly aggressive field. Once again, I'm not saying that there is a big conspiracy against women, rather that it's a preconception people have about strong women. They're far more likely to be viewed negatively than men who show the same traits.

If it's been debunked - cite your sources! I've just posted a few links that show evidence of a wage gap. To answer your question a bit more overtly - it's not necessarily a conscious decision that results in women getting paid less, it's a preconception of the hiring manager, that's why companies don't hire only women. Companies care about certain laws, because they have to, but whenever a large company can bend the rules - it certainly will. That's just how you maximise profits, though these are normally in ways like paying bribes, tax evasion, poor safety regulation, etc. I didn't say that you couldn't prove it, I said that companies make it difficult to prove. Also, there is a perception about women and negotiation - they are far less likely to be successful when negotiating for a raise. With this uneducated people thing, I am willing to bet that I'm quite well educated . There is a stigma about discussing pay openly, that's not something that should come as a surprise to you. And people DO kick off, but there isn't a media stink because this isn't news. This has been the case since women have been in the office - where is the news?! I also don't apply for jobs with an hourly wage. But, once again, the wage gap isn't a conspiracy by big companies - it's a perception that results in women being offered a lower salary.

You're right about women in STEM - that's something that really winds me up about certain groups of feminists on university campuses. They complain about there being no women in STEM, yet they refuse to study STEM!

Here is my evidence: https://www.whitehouse.gov/equal-pay/myth#top http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/01/14/women-and-leadership/ http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:The_unadjusted_gender_pay_gap,_2014_(¹)_(difference_between_average_gross_hourly_earnings_of_male_and_female_employees_as_%_of_male_gross_earnings_new.png There is more, this was just a simple cursory search. Don't try and pretend there's no evidence, that's just silly I have absolutely no idea how to solve the problem - the pay gap is narrowing, so it's certainly getting better, but the problem is normally the perception of hiring managers. I think you're right about trying to improve the work atmosphere though, that's certainly a good way forward.

At a minimum wage position, the pay gap is irrelevant. But you're just not being honest with yourself if you don't think it's real. At mid to upper level positions, women consistently get paid less for the same job, and yes, it is illegal. But this ridiculous idea that because something is illegal, then a company doesn't do it is just ludicrous . You often are in a position where you can't do anything about it, especially not me when I'm in a junior position - though I have tried in the past, and I often don't get anywhere. So some companies will have something similar to a non-disclosure clause in their contracts that is designed to make it tricky to discuss pay, it's also difficult to prove that you do *exactly* the same job as somebody else. The thing is, people don't kick off because there is such a stigma about it. Do you really think that if you took your company to court they would give you a reference for your next job? Do you really think you would survive the next round of layoffs? I don't know where you're getting this idea that the pay gap has been debunked, but it's not true What you have to understand, is that it's not an official company policy because, of course, that would be stupid. It's a perception thing of the hiring manager. Women are viewed to be worth less so they get lower offers, women who negotiate are also seen to be trouble makers, so it's harder for them to get a higher salary as well.

I've lived in Switzerland, England, Germany, and now Denmark. I've worked in Germany and England, and I have seen the pay gap. My boyfriend is from the US, and his mum does not get paid the same as colleagues in a comparable position. I've worked at an engineering company where I was paid more than the girl I shared my office with - she had the same job as me, as well. I did a brief stint with a cheminformatics company, where female scientists were not paid as much as men at the same level. I worked for a chemical production company as well - same issues. My mum has seen it too, she was the only female director at her place, and also the least well paid - despite having the third most senior position. It's everywhere - it's not made up! You don't have to tell me that anecdotal evidence can't outweight empirical evidence, I'm well aware of that - but you just gave the evidence. The pay gap is illegal, but it's not enforced. There is a big stigma on causing legal issues for the company you work at, especially at a higher level.

At the universities I've been at, we've had problems with people wanting safe spaces. It's total BS, a university is no place for an intellectual safe space. Non-existent gender pay gap? Really? Do you honestly believe it's non-existent? I can give you examples where I have been paid more than women for the same job. It's definitely a real thing, and yes - it's a problem. The rest of the stuff is silly, I agree, but let's not bury our heads in the sand .

I think I get you, so basically someone who's not going to accept anything other than the position they hold, and if you don't hold it then you're a monster?

Outside of the US, Trump represents a very real reminder of 1930s Germany. This isn't an example of Godwin's law, for anyone who would say so. There are extremely clear parallels, and it's pretty scary. Clinton is also a pretty awful candidate, and I get really annoyed by the rebranding that paints her as some sort of liberal hero, or cool candidate. It really winds me up that people seem to be supporting her on the basis of her gender. Yeh, Obama has been pretty fierce with his deportations so the number has drastically fallen during his presidency. I think Trump has backpedalled on the wall because he wouldn't be able to build it, but he's so changeable, I have no idea what he's planning. In terms of the race divide with poverty, it's an issue that has just compounded over the years. The civil rights act definitely wasn't the end of racism and discrimination in the US. The problem is that it's really difficult to have any sort of upward social mobility in the US, so black families who were poor tend to stay poor. (Maybe I'm being an idiot, but why is being an SJW a bad thing? Isn't being pro-social justice generally a good thing?)

I don't live in the US, so I don't have a full picture. However, they are discriminated in terms of marriage, adoption, assaults, abuse, etc. Same as a lot of western countries, although I imagine it is significantly worse in the US than it is in the UK or here in Denmark. I didn't say being furious helped, but if people were able to just turn off their fury, then they would rarely be furious in the first place . You're right though, hate is a terrible thing - especially when it's aimed at an entire group. Though it usually comes from fear. Groups that are discriminated against normally represent something that people are afraid of, whether rational or irrational.

@RooR Two thousand years ago, it was important for a country and empire to be somewhat self-sufficient, because there wasn't the global infrastructure we have now. So these days, it's far less important to be entirely self-sufficient. The problem the US has is that it's far too reliant on Chinese products, and China owns most of it's debt, rather than actually being self-sufficient. In fact, I think the only way a country could be entirely self-sufficient, and still maintain the level of luxury we enjoy, is through slave labour - unless there's an example of one that I'm completely unaware of. So for that reason, I think a global economy is largely a good thing. You should, in general, be careful of bombastic individuals who promise self-sufficiency. Totally behind you on the prisons, and the war on drugs, and the middle east. I feel like someone more left-wing is better positioned to deal with these issues though (I don't mean the Dems though, because by European standards, they're hella right wing ) I've always thought that the problem with US politics is that everyone is corrupt. And the corruption is legal! If you scrap private prisons, there'll no longer be a cash incentive on incarceration, so the prison population will drop. The war on drugs is just nonsense. And I have no clue how to do anything about the middle east. Just a point of information though, I'm very left-wing, and I also agree about political correctness. It just puts up barriers. However, I think that sometimes people hate it because it means it's not socially acceptable to say really offensive things anymore.

I've heard some of my conservative friends say the same thing about gay rights in the UK. What is the most pressing issue, in your view?

Considering their stances on gay rights, very .