woll3

Just now, PB3 said:

I'm sticking to all of one brand.

But why? If there is money to blow you could certainly get far better stuff when it comes to audio, even if its a Headset, like for example Sennheiser´s Game Zero, or Mousepads like the ones from Artisan.

16 hours ago, herman mcpootis said:

(believe hardwarecanacks has a analysed it).

What they are doing cant be called analysing given that they have failed to mention the limitations of A3050, esp. with crap stock firmware.

Just now, michalj82 said:

Maybe this one: https://www.dreammachines.io/products/dm1-pro-s-optical-gaming-mouse-3360-sensor

It got PWM3360 sensor and Omron switches on every button.

But also limits itself with bad FW, MCU, and build quality.

Just now, M.Yurizaki said:

I don't think I understand what you're trying to say because searching the web for these issues yields almost no relevant results.

Well, for beginners:

Just now, M.Yurizaki said:

Debounce doesn't cause button lag unless you're trying to rapidly press the button. Most software responds to a mouse click on the press, not the release. There's probably no hardware debouncing either because that requires extra hardware (and if you're trying to be cheap as possible, that's a no-no). If the debounce timing in the firmware is long, then my $15 mouse I bought for the office seems to be a heckuva deal because I can reliably pass the double click test on the mouse settings at its fastest.

Waiting x amount of time creates lag, there are methods to work around these but they arent commonly used, however a good example would be Logitech, where different times for pressing and releasing are being used, or A4Tech´s IR Switch series, alotough they have a weird bug.

Also i hope that you are aware that the MCU is already debouncing to make sure that nothing unintentional reaches the PC.

Just now, M.Yurizaki said:

As in when the mouse starts showing signs of trouble after use? I've had a few $60+ gaming mice develop double clicks and such within a few years while basic mice are still trucking along.

No, its physical movement speed, not to mention the aforementioned noise, angle error, resolution error and motion latency.

Edit: Also the reason why some office mice last that long is due to higher debounce times which are causes button lag.

Just now, M.Yurizaki said:

So yah, a $15 Amazon special is probably just as good as a $100 Logitech for all intents and purposes.

Eh, no, with the most obv. factor being malfunction speed.

Few Options from the top of my head:

Logitech G900 (over budget though)

ROG Sica

Roccat Kiro (A3050, so only up to 1000cpi really useable, also heavy for its size)

Roccat Lua (A3050, so only up to 1000cpi really useable)

Razer Abyssus

Logitech G100s

the new Deathadder 3500 with PMW3320

Just now, Rupe said:

Their promotional trailer looked promising, they hit on every important point except response time which is something logitech emphasized strongly with their Wireless G900.

Motion latency will (most likely) be lower due to 3360 not having smoothing.

Just now, CoreKhaos said:

Yea, apprently they're using new mechanical switches for their mice which will probably cover response time I hope. 

Button latency will probably be the same given shelldesign and debounce time relation.

Just now, n3urion said:

so the logitech g100s has an overall better sensor (  AM010 N1301T/N1303T  according to ur list ) right ? and if I may ask .. what makes a sensor good for gaming ... I mean not on the technical side of things, but just like what are the specs tht can halp me decide if it's good or not ( acceleration, dpi, max speed etc ..) ?

Angle Error, Noise(jitter), malfunction speed, motion latency, resolution error, so, most things that actually arent(or rarely) used to advertise mice. ^^

As for what to look for, there actually isnt much you can look for in most regards, as MCU choice and especially Firmware are also impacting performance.

Just now, n3urion said:

and has 4000dpi

Well either it is using A5050 and simply mulitplies counts, or A3050 which has 2000cpi max., either way even with 3050 FW and performance will be crap.

Anyway, the only thing that makes sense in that price region is the G100s, which actually has some objective advantages over certain higher priced products.

5 hours ago, crystal6tak said:

 

I don't care much about DPI, I do however care about the accuracy, I don't know how that's benchmarked in the mouse tech world.

Well, a combination out of several things, Resolution Error (aka, Speed related Accuracy Variance, "Acceleration" etc.), Malfunction speed(obv. not really relevant anymore), Angle Error(Deviation from the actual physical path), Noise(Jitter) and:

5 hours ago, crystal6tak said:

There are other things in a mouse which I don't know how to research for still, such as movement latency and click latency. Both of which I was surprised how far behind my Deathadder Chroma was compared to G900 (video here)  (Like seriously, click latency 10.9ms on my Chroma, while G900 wireless gets 4.3ms?!?!)

Which is also a topic in itself as click latency is affected by the debounce time, the way Logitech does it is 4ms for the on state and ~20ms for the off state, others for example use one value for both, it is also a cheap trick to increase "switch lifetime", like for example Corsair and Zowie have done with ~30ms debounce times.

As for motion latency, well, depends also on the firmware and chosen MCU besides chosen sensor, Logitechs Package out of 3366 and ARM obv. brings the lowest latencies, but soemtimes others can come close as well, like Roccats KPM(manipulated SROM), Kiro, R100, and other 3360´s, altough the Revel and DM1 Pro S are closer to the 3988´s due to their cheap MCU, in general 3988 and 3310 are slow(the KPM beign an exception due to a manipulated SROM), with the Torq X5o and the Hori Edge being the fastest i have tested followed by the DA. You can also see that a pattern emerges with mostly ARM mcu´s being in that Region, while not a replacement for proper firmware, it certainly helps, which is also why i tend to rant about Zowie mice which are using enCore III from 2006, and therefore have the expected performance.

Just now, acheahead said:

I
- If it's a fact, that the PMW3310 is a better sensor,

Compared to 3050 and 9800 maybe.

Just now, Vox_Lusa said:

Just now, Vox_Lusa said:

I was about to leave a post recommending the new Logitech G403 Prodigy aswell. The size and shape is somewhat similiar to the DeathAdder (which I personally like) and most people say that Logitech mice are built to last.

 

Just be aware that it is shorter and overall higher, also feels narrower compared to the DA as it flares less out.

Just now, Terobich said:

I know Gamdias has a good reputation among gaming mice

So good, that sponsored people have been openly mocking them.

Just now, VictorianReaper said:

yes if you like the color

Not sure why anybody would say that.

Just now, tomomatic1 said:

Try the Corsair Katar. It does have 8000dpi, but that can be reduced with the button on the top. It is $49AUD though; just below your £30 price range. It does however look similar to that of the Adder, but I wouldn't know how it feels. 

 

hope this was helpful

*4000, because it uses 3090, also limited native steps.

7 hours ago, MaxBunny said:

The thumb buttons suck. Get another mouse instead.

According to?

Just now, slifrocith said:

Oh yes I did misunderstood you, I apologize, Alcor's shell design is better for the mouse clicks and side buttons but the EC2-A is definitely sporting the better hardware of the 2. The Alcor's Avaga 3090 isn't as good as the EC2-A's Pixart PMW 3310. The Alcor does spin out on occasion if you move the mouse too fast and it seems to have some deceleration as well. I'm an AWPer in CS:GO and I wouldn't risk my mouse spinning out during a match, losing that $4750 gun is huge. If OP is interested here's a comparison video between the CM Storm Alcor and the Zowie EC2-A.

You are contradicting yourself here, just saying, and while it is more surface dependent, on most surfaces you still get more than 4m/s, which is also depending on which Firmware you are using(not checking into this stuff is also one of the reasons i cant recommend RJN). Not to mention that again motion latency is lower than with the Zowies, instead of using the 10 year old EnCore III you actually get an ARM M3, and instead of Huanos you get Omron D2F-01F(the japanese sorted ones), so the Alcor has the better Hardware for the lower price.^^

Just now, slifrocith said:

I was by no mean saying the Logitech PGM is a bad mouse though, as for the 3.0 / Alcor, it isn't quite the same as EC2-A / PGM. The IE 3.0 was released in the mid 2000s while the Alcor was released in 2014. It's pretty much obvious that the Alcor would offer more for less. The EC2-A has Huano switches and a 3310 sensor while the PGM has Omron switches and the newer 3366. They use different parts but are somewhat comparable in performance, EC2-A is $10 USD cheaper and is good enough to play CS:GO competitively. PGM has more features and a better sensor but it does indeed come at a cost, sure $10 USD isn't much but the said features aren't something really worth overlooking the EC2-A for, especially if you don't like the shape. I agree that the market is stale but there is only so much you can innovate on a mouse and make it worth buying.

???

I think you misunderstood me, i wrote:

Just now, woll3 said:

 

 And if somebody wants the 3.0 shape, than there are alternatives as well, like the Alcor.

And 3.0 shape, includes stuff like the EC1 and EC2, Mamba, 550/530/500m, Rival Rescuer, Rival 300, Alcor/Mizar, 300m, Ventus X/optical, XM300, Deathadder, so on and so forth.  The Alcor comparison was obv. towards the EC2, it does the same with better Hardware and shell design.

Just now, slifrocith said:

I've had mine (EC2-A) for a few months now, been using it for 6+ hours everyday and no creaking whatsoever. If the creaking / clicks is such an issue you can always ask Zowie to send you a replacement. I understand the all in thing but every manufacturer have some bad units on the shelves, it's just like that. You could consider buying 2 mice instead of 1 so you don't have to gamble on it and get a refund for the other one later. As for the delays, if they were that bad no one would've bought Zowie mice, period. I don't know about the BF4 competitive community but in CS:GO's, they are very well regarded. Lots of CS:GO's top pros are using 'em. IMO, I think you're just being picky but it's alright, no mouse is perfect and everybody is different. Also your background is different, you're coming from BF4 and I from CS:GO. OP specifically asked for opinions on what mice to get for CS:GO, not BF4.

As said, its mediocre, not unusable, and i rather discuss products not players, the creaking is also a recurring thing since the DA 3G that might be less pronounced on the 2´s due to there size not to mention that i dont have to buy mice but thats another topic, and also as said, other s notice the difference, if you dont, well, good for you. And the alternative i brought up was the Alcor,  which offers more, in a similar shape for a lot less, i never said the PGM was similar in shape.

Also i mentioned only what has been the latest "big" thing i did, i also played in the CS:GO EPS(back when it wasnt just "Meisterschaft") Relegation, but well whatever, the market has already been stale enough, but if people want 10 year old stuff just because of hype, well, its up to them, or maybe it just doesnt matter in one shot spray games anyway. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Just now, slifrocith said:

There is a reason why the motion latency thing is never mentionned, it's not relevant in an everyday use scenario. Maybe it is in a test environment inside a lab it is so the companies can boast having the best said motion latency / click latency on the market but it's definitely not something you should base your shopping habits on. I'm not saying that there is no difference between the mice, I am just saying that buying a mouse based on that alone is ridiculous. The gap between say a Logitech and a Zowie mouse is nowhere near big enough to be noticeable in a human test. As for the smoothing increase on 3988/3989, you'll mostly never really experience it if you use a low dpi, problems arise when you go over a certain dpi. RJN runs most of his tests at 400, 800, 1600 and 3200 dpi so that's probably why he never experienced any in his tests. As for the ADNS-9800, RJN pointed out that it does suffers from deceleration / smoothing in his SteelSeries Sensei Raw video.

Well as said, depends on the person, if you dont notice any difference, well, then it is so, but that doesnt mean that others cant, especially if they play a lot. And i think that shopping habits should be based on value for money, you wouldnt pay 100k for a 90´s civic or would you. And if somebody wants the 3.0 shape, than there are alternatives as well, like the Alcor.

Also the first increase in smoothing of the A9800 and 3988 happens at 1600, and at 3200 you get 16ms, which shoudl be easily noticeable by anyone, early A9800 and 3988 had it at around 30ms, which was noticed by even the most casual of users. IMO what you are saying goes against logic because there would be no reason to buy/design gaming mice in the first place.

Just now, lukesterboy said:

Well, i really doubt it affects the latency that much in reviews people don't have bad opinions like this... What are you saying overall, though, just don't get Zowie? Have you used Zowie before, if so what mouse and what mouse do you use now?

Well, it depends on the person obviously, and most reviewers are rather bad or insensitive to delay, that also goes for RJN. And overall i have to say, yeah, people shouldnt buy it, regardless of if they feel the difference or not as imo it is a matter of principle, getting worse performance and 10 year old hardware for a premium price etc., and especially Zowie "fans" should shout out and say that this isnt acceptable. As for myself using Zowie, i have an EC1 from 2009, a white EC1 eVo, and an -A, the solution with the Kingsis lens for the LOD was already rather meh, but 3310 was clearly a step back to me, but that also goes for other mice as well. Im using the PGM since Chris Pate send me one for testing.

Just now, slifrocith said:

The only problem with the shell design are the clicks which feel stiffer (I like that as it easier to tap with the AK/M4 and not burst on accident) and the side buttons who feel mushy, other than that the shell is ok. As for motion latency / click latency (which Logitech boast having the best) I will say this: it's not a deal breaker. It's nowhere near mediocre enough to be noticeable in an everyday scenario. I've forgot to mention that I've also used a Logitech G303 so in the end I've used two of Logitech's top of the line mice and I didn't notice any of that motion latency / click latency thing when I switched over to Zowie.

Except the creaking, and its not only that they feel stiffer, it is highly dependend on the torque put onto the screws, some units are quite sensitive, a problem the Deathadder already has had, and that could have been fixed considering that the EC1 is literally a simplified Deathadder(made/designed by Kingsis etc.). If it is a deal breaker depends on the person and useage scenario, for me as somebody that "goes all in"(altough the last time was the BF4 ESL One), it rather is a big deal to me, and there are players out there who prefer A3050´s and A9500´s due to the motion latency, as written above, i also see it as a matter of principle. Click latency/debounce time isnt really an issue anymore though, altough instead of bad it is now just mediocre.

Just now, lukesterboy said:

What does all that mean? So are you saying Zowie is bad and the Logitech would be much better?

Not bad, but mediocre. Motion latency means how long it takes to send the data to the PC after moving, where 3310, 3988 and A9800 mice with unmodified SROM(Sensor Settings) inherently have a disadvantage due to its smoothing, add in old Firmware and a 10 year old MCU and you get the Zowie´s, which is also why im saying that the pricepoint isnt right, not to mention the shell design....

Just now, Mr.Meerkat said:

Ya ya, it's cheap with a good sensor...as long as it doesn't have sensor rattle then it's exactly what I need as a secondary mice  

There is more to performance than just the Sensor, Firmware and MCU also play a big role, which is where obv. has been cheaped out for "muh 3360", the HT68 increases motion latency bringing it above levels of good 3988 mice.

Just now, lukesterboy said:

 Now it's just the question whether I get the EC2-A or wait for some reviews on the Logitech Pro G

TBH, there isnt much to think about, the PGM has a lot lower motion latency(so do actually many other mice compared to the Zowie´s) and the pricepoint is a lot better, the performance of the Zowie´s is far from "top notch".

And people should stop being so infatuated with RJN as he tends to leave details out, like for example motion latency, or the smoothing increase with A9800/3988/3989 for example.