westom

A surge can be a frequency variation. Reverse polarity, Floating ground. Even excessive current from a USB port. The surge that Asus reports has no relationship to anything on AC mains. Too many only see a subjective word, such as surge. Then assume it is one of the other and completely different things called a surge. UPS will not repair that problem. Your 'surge' involved many internal parts that provide stable DC voltages. AC is totally irrelevant to how those parts work - or do not work. To say more, then you must provide some numbers. Otherwise the fewer who actually know how this stuff works are silenced.

True if one ignores specification numbers. Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules does that UPS claim to absorb? Hundreds? A UPS is a near zero surge protector. It has just enough joules to claim it does surge protection. Using that reasoning, tie a knot in the power cord. That is also a surge protector. How does a power strip rated at hundreds or thousands joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? How does that 2 cm part block what three miles of sky could not? Again, they are marketing to people who ignore spec numbers - who would be scammed. Something completely different called a surge protector does claim to protect from destructive surges. Then hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly outside. Then no surge current is anywhere inside a building. If that computer needs protection, then everything need protection. Informed homeowners spend about $1 per protected appliance on a 'whole house' protector. Then a surge is not inside hunting for earth ground destructively via that computer or anything else. Near zero power board protector or UPS need protection only possible with a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Then protection even from direct lightning strikes exist. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Locate a bare, solid copper, quarter inch ground wire that must connect a mains breaker box to that single point earth ground. If that wire goes up over the foundation and down to earth, then ground meets code and compromises surge proetction. Wire is too long, has too many sharp bends, and is not separated from other non-grounding wires. Protecton means that wire must go through foundation and down to earth - to be many feet shorter - to have lower impedance. Inspect to confirm that wire exists, is properly installed to exceed code requirements, and actually does connect to single point ground. A second wire will connect to cold water pipes. This bond is required for human safety. But is no longer sufficient for earth ground. That decicated earth ground (often to multiple ground rods) must exist as defined in the first post. A 'whole house' protector must connect all incoming AC wires low impedance (hardwire not inside metallic conduit) to earth. One, rented from the AC electric company, is located behind the meter. Or can be installed in the main breaker box. Manufacturers, known for integrity, provide them including Square D, Intermatic, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), General Electric, Ditek, ABB, Leviton, Syscom, Siemens, and Keison. A Cutler-Hammer sells in both Lowes and Home Depot. Protectors are also available in electrical supply houses (ie where circuit breakers are also sold) and on the internet. This protector is characterized by a dedicated wire for that low impedance (as short as possible) connection to earth. One specification number is important. Lightning is typicaly 20,000 amps. No protector must be damaged by a surge. So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Simply ask or search for a 'whole house' protector. Confirm it is at least 50,000 amps (and has a UL listing). Then a sufficient 'whole house' protector has been selected. Again, protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. That (earth ground) defines 'protection' during 'each' surge. 50,000 amps defines protector 'life expectancy' over 'many' surges. Quality of earth ground, that protector's current number, and how a hardwire connects to earth are three critical concerns in a 'whole house' solution. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Finally a last point. Each protection layer is only defined by its earth ground. Above is one protection layer - your 'secondary' protection layer. Also inspect your 'primary' protection layer. Pictures demonstrate what might be inspected to confirm a 'primary' protection layer exists: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

First, destructive spikes from major appliances is an urban myth. If those appliances create surges, then you are replacing clocks, TV, and all kitchen and bathroom GFCIs daily or hourly. Obvious the furnace and washing machine do not create those surges. May create noise (ie single digit volts spikes). Read a let-through voltage on any protector. 330 volts means a spike is ignored until voltage well exceeds that number. Meanwhile, a 'whole house' protector protects from all types of surges - including any rumored appliance generated surges. Second, protection means a electric current spike does not go hunting for earth ground destructively via household appliances. IOW that current transient connects low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to earth BEFORE entering. A single point earth ground is THE critical component of this protection system. Best is to have all incoming utilities entering at one service entrance. Then all make that low impedance connection to some 10 foot copper clad earth ground rod. Equipotential and conductivity are the objectives. Then voltage underneath the entire house remains constant. If the voltage on that incoming wire is same as voltage beneath a house, then no voltage difference exists inside the house - destrutively across appliances. A utility demonstrates good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions. Obviously a best solution exists when all incoming cables are at one service entrance. However, if cables enter at different locations, then an ugly (right) solution is implemented. Appliance protection starts with quality of and connections to this single point earth ground. Inspecting or upgrading this earthing is critical. Since this is what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. TV cable needs no protector. Best protection is a hardwire connection from cable to earth ground. A ground block (http://www.dbsinstall.com/N-images/Whatis/Driploop-1.jpg or http://files.cablewholesale.com/hires/200-278.jpg) and maybe 10 AWG (green) wire makes that connection. Now a surge need not go hunting destructively inside since a best connection to earth exists outside. Anything that increases that earth ground also increases protection. Protection is best installed when footings are poured - Ufer ground ( http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm). But you must deal with what already exists. Code says you must have at least two ground rods. For most homes, that is sufficient. However if the earth ground is expanded (using electrodes defined by the National Electrical code), then appliance protection increases. Third, a dedicated hardwire connection low impedance (ie no sharp wire bends) to earth is protection for cable. But telephone and AC electric cannot connect directly to earth. Telco already installs a 'whole house' protector for free. Protector only does what that hardwire does better. It is only a connection to earth. Often found inside an NID box (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Network_interface_device_ameritech.jpg). Again a ground wire must connect low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground. No a surge on telephone wires need not go hunting destructive inside. Every wire in every incoming cable must connect low impedance to earth - either by hardwire or via a 'whole house' protector. It is required by code (and other standards) on cable TV, telephone, satellite dish, and TV antenna. Unfortunately it is not required on AC electric. That protection would not exist IF a homeowner does not install it. That summarized the most important component in every surge protection system - single point earth ground. Above describes protection that should already exist, needs inspection, or must be upgraded. Next post moves on to what is missing in most homes.

Sorry. But reality does not change. Many are so attached to bogus hearsay that facts are only heard when repeated too many times. Repeated until one decides to challenge the science (and numbers) or to accept it. First, I have decades of experience doing this stuff. Most who recommend this stuff have no experience. We even traced surges through equipment to learn from our mistakes. Even demonstrated how plug-in protectors earthed a surge destructively through a network of powered off computers. Second, need a citation? I am one. How do you know? Statements included reasons why - and with numbers. Should you want professional citations, be prepared to read five times more than this entire thread. Are you really ready for reams of details? Or we might start with what you were taught in elementary school science - Franklin's lightning rods. Since proven solutions are based in those concepts. Belkin and APC violate that science. Third, should you want a proven solution, then more is required to define the 'art' of protection. Little has been said about this most critical component. It is layman simple. But numerous simple concepts must be discussed. Yes I can bury you in citations. Better is to discuss how this has been done by summarizing what professional citations demand. Again, earthing is the 'art' of protection. No simple brochure can exist to explain it. Where would you like to begin?

Nobody said that. And nobody said you said that. Why are you jumping to conclusions based in speculation? You completely missed the point. Each anomaly requires a different solutions. No magic box addresses all anomalies. Most wiill recommend a UPS or surge protector to provide temporary power AND do surge protection. For the same reason some recommend those near zero Belkin or APC protectors. Completely irrelevant is what you said or what anyone feels. Only thing relevant is the science. UPS is for blackouts - nothing more. Properly earthed protector is for destructive types of surges. Belkin or APC protector is for surges that typically do not damage. That is the science.

Protection from sudden changes, spikes, etc has long existed inside electronic even before an IBM PC existed. That protection is not needed because it has always existed. That protection is also why a UPS output can be so 'dirty'. Your concern is a transient that blows through superior protection inside appliances and lesser protection in Belkin and APC products. Any protector that *blocks* is bogus. Repeatedly stated: protection from destructive surges (lightning is but one example) means not blocking a surge. Protection from lightning and other surges, for over 100 years, has always been about connecting that surge low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to earth. Protection means a surge does not enter a building. If anything needs protection, then everything needs that protection. Destructive surges may occur once every seven years. A number that can vary significantly even in the same town. A number better defined by decades of neighborhood history to determine is protection (at $1 per protected appliance) is desired. Properly earthed protection long existed on phone and TV cable. But the most common incoming surge path is AC electric. A proven solution (even from direct lightning strikes) costs about $1 per protected appliance. As proven by over 100 years of experience. Again, it works because it does not *block* a surge - as a Belkin or APC must magically do. A UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power for blackouts. Completely different from what was originally asked. Blackout is a completely different anomaly that causes no hardware damage. UPS addresses a blackout; not a surge. UPS does not protect hardware. Surge protector (effective and ineffective) does not provide temporary power during blackouts. Two completely different solutions for two completely different anomalies.

The Belkin or APC do not even claim that protection. They claim to protect from surges mostly made irrelevant by protection already inside electronics. The OP asked,"I was wondering what the recommended amount of joules of protection I should get in a surge protector." Protection make hundreds of thousands of joules surges irrelevant. A 2000 joule APC or Belkin does not even come close. Then why are they so expensive? And then create other problems - such as compromising protection already inside computers. Yes it can even make damage easier. If APC is so good, then why did their new owners announce so many APC protectors must be removed immediately due to fire. Other protectors (such as Belkin) are similar in design. What happens when a hundreds or 1330 joule APC protector tries to absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Belkin or APC is an inferior recommendation. Made by ignoring numbers. OP is strongly advised to properly earth one 'whole house' protector - to protect everything including refrigerator, dishwasher - and especially smoke detectors. For tens of times less money. Even Belkin or APC (near zero) protectors need that protection. Belkin and APC clearly cannot do what the OP has asked for. Both were recommended by ignoring all numbers and 100 years of well proven science. But so many believe the myth. It must be true.

My first HDDs were large boxes - some even moved disk heads with motor oil. Power loss never damaged a HDD - even back then. In fact, disk drives learned about a power off when DC voltages started dropping. Disk drive processor then had plenty of time (milliseconds) to stop any writes and protect itself. No drive knows of a power off until it already starts. Over 20 years ago, if the one file was not written to disk, then that file was lost. AND an original saved copy was also lost. This was not hardware damage. This was a weakness in early filesystem designs - and eliminated by better software designs decades ago. Power loss does not cause HDD damage. Did not do damage even decades before the IBM PC existed. But that myth lives on. UPS to protect HDD hardware has always been a myth. Square wave or stepped wave - both are 'dirty' UPS power that is potentially harmful to motorized appliances. My reference to square waves is really about all 'simulated' sine outputs. Since all (and spikes associated with stepped waves) are nothing more than a sum of pure sine waves, then subjective advertising calls that UPS a 'pure sine wave' output. They can claim anything subjectively. Only valid claim comes with spec numbers. Motorized appliances (ie laser printer, refrigerator) is best not powered by a UPS - due to its 'dirty' output when in battery backup mode. Bottom line - even a 'dirtiest' UPS is not harmful to electronics. Because electronics already have robust internal protection. Power so 'dirty' as to be problematic for small electric motors is also good power for electronics. A UPS does not protect hardware. Existing robust hardware makes irrelevant less 'dirty' power from AC mains and 'dirtier' power from a UPS in battery backup mode. That is the point. Even if a UPS 'cleaned' AC mains, well, protection already inside electronics appliances made cleaning irrelevant. Meanwhile, what happens inside electronics? Any incoming clean or dirty AC power is intentionally made 'dirtiest'. Well over 300 volt radio frequency spikes. Then superior 'cleaning' regulators and filters already inside electronics clean that 'dirtiest' power. What does a UPS add when electronics already contain superior filters, regulators, and galvanic isolation? Nothing. Best protection is already inside electronics - to even make dirty UPS power irrelevant. OP asked about protection from something that can overwhelm that existing and superior protection. UPS does not. Nothing adjacent to an appliance even claims such protection. Protection must be located where transients enter - at the service entrance - within meters of single point earth ground. Only a 'whole house' solution is always implemented when damage cannot happen. Everyone here can and should install same - for tens of times less money than a UPS or plug-in protector. UPS does not even protect disk drives 50 years ago. That protection has been standard in disk drives for that long.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but damage must never occur from sudden power loss and other such anomalies. In fact, "damage from sudden power loss" is a first indication of technical naivety. If knowledge comes from designing, standards, basic electrical knowledge, or experience tempered in logical thought, then one would never foolishly conclude that power loss causes damage. But that myth is popular. UPS is recommended to protect hardware ONLY because advertising said so - subjectively. This separates the informed from the naive. The informed demand specification numbers. And the informed would say what internal part is damaged by power loss. Why does nobody define an 'at risk' part? Because it does not exist. Power loss never causes hardware damage. APC easily manipulates the naive with subjective claims. That hardware protection myth comes from a subjective expressions that only says "protection". It does not say protection of what from what - with numbers. Then wild speculation assumes that must be "hardware protection". UPS does one protection - temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved. It does not protect hardware. And outputs some of the 'dirtiest' power. Robust protection inside all electronics even makes 'dirtiest' UPS power irrelevant (see 2nd to last paragraph). If 'hardware protection' exists, then a number that defines it. Why no number? That protection is 'believed' - not defined. All appliances contain robust protection. Concern is for an anomaly that can overwhelm existing and robust protection. Facilities that cannot have damage earth a 'whole house' protector. So that all types of surges are made irrelevant - will not overwhelm protection inside every appliance. At about $1 per protected appliance, it is clearly the superior solution. BTW, did you notice THE most important verb in that sentence? Earth. Spikes cause damage? Good. Let's see the numbers. International design standards (long before the PC existed) defined spikes at 500% of line voltage - without hardware damage. Today's electronics are even more robust. Numbers even say how robust. UPS is temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved. Otherwise a UPS would even be required on every clock, smoke detector, and dishwasher. Did I mention 'dirtiest' power comes from a UPS in battery backup mode? Tech Tip 3 from an AC utility. Leftmost waveform is power directly from AC mains - when not in battery backup mode. Notice 'dirty' UPS power is when it switches to battery: http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-03.asp Fortunately all electronics already contain robust protection so that even 'dirty' UPS power does not cause hardware damage. You also recommended a near zero 2000 joule protector ... knowledge only from advertising. You never learned about destructive surges - ie hundreds of thousands of joules. Advertising from near zero protectors would never discuss surges that typically do damage. It says where your knowledge comes from.

Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. A protector adjacent to electronics must either block or absorb that surge. How does its 2 cm part block what three miles of sky could not? it doesn't. At 2000 joules, it only absorbs 670 joules and never more than 1330 joules. Where is the protection? Adjacent protectors only claim to protect from surges that are typically made irrelevant by protection that is already inside appliances. Protection exists when you can say where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Nothing from Belkin, APC, etc will even discuss hundreds of thousands of joules ... let alone make a product that protects from this other and destructive surge. Companies with integity include Siemens, Leviton, Square D, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Intermatic, Ditek, General electric, ABB, and Square D. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector from companies of integrity is 50,000 amps. And this is most important. That proven solution also has a dedicated wire for a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground. Again, where do hundreds of thousands or joules harmlessly dissipate. Earth ground. Protection means a surge is harmlessly connected to and absorbed by earth WITHOUT being anywhere inside a house. Then superior protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed. A Cutler-Hammer (Eaton) protector sells in Lowes ahd Home Depot. These proven solutions (essential to protect near zero Belkin and APC protectors) are also available in electrical supply houses and on the internet. Your cost for the proven solution is about $1 per protected appliance. How many times more is an APC or Belkin - for near zero protection? BTW, APC recently admitted some of their protectors are so dangerous as to be removed from the house immediately. Protectors so undersized as to create house fires. Be concerned. UPS does not do surge protection. That is temporary and 'dirty' power so that unsaved data can be saved. UPS does not do hardware protection. Specifications list even less joules.

Near zero surges (ie hundreds of joules) are made irrelevant by protection already inside appliance. Your concern is the rare and potentially destructive surge that can be hundreds of thousands of joules. View specification numbers. How many joules will that power strip absorb? Hundreds? Thousand? So protector parts must disconnect from that surge as fast as possible to avert a fire. Meanwhile that same surge remains connected to attached appliances. A surge too tiny to damage adjacent appliances can also destroy that undersized protector. Then naive consumers use speculation to assume, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer." Total nonsense that can only exist when one routinely ignores spec numbers. Sometimes that thermal fuse does not disconnect protector parts fast enough. A fire results. Facilities that cannot have damage routinely use something completely different - called a surge protector. This solution, proven by over 100 years of science and experience, means hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate outside. That means no surge current is inside the building. Then everything is protected. If anything needs protection, then everything needs protection. That can only happen when a 'whole house' protector is properly earthed. And so we have defined two completely different devices. One with few joules will magically avert a surge. The other, that dissipates hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly outside, is also necessary to protect those near zero protectors recommended by other - by even ignoring specification numbers. The proven solution costs a homeowner about $! per protected appliance. More money is put into protection - not into the obscene profit margins found in magic plug-in protectors. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which plug-in protectors do not have and will not discuss. A low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground means joules dissipate harmlessly outside. Then even direct lightning strikes cause no damage - even to that protector.

Everyone should learn something in this thread. Never posted were relevant numbers. Some of the most important numbers are found in manufacturer specifications. How do you know a PSU is suspect? The manufacturer did not provide at least a full sheet of numbers. PSU manufacturers can lie all they want - subjectively in advertising. That is legal. Only place they must tell truths is in spec numbers. No spec numbers means informed consumers (ie engineers) cannot expose the myths. No numbers is why so many, who do not even know what a PSU does, then make bold recommendations based in nothing but hearsay or a 'tier'. Same reasoning also proved smoking cigarettes increased health. Subjective claims meant over 60% of Americans believed that lie. Because most do not demand facts with perspective. That means numbers come with each recommendation. Warranties also proven nothing. After all, best warranties were on GM cars. That proved GM products were superior to Honda and Toyota? Of course not. That only proved GM would make it extremely difficult to get a warranty honored. One technique was to drop all warranty costs on the dealers - who then did everything possible to not honor that warranty. What the naive do next. That technique is right out of Hilter's book on how to manipulate people. Post insults rather than facts. Ironically, many of us are quick to believe an insulter rather than an educated responder with numbers. Need we cite Donald Trump as another example? That is the point of this discussion. Did you see posts based in facts or posts based in subjective hearsay? Exactly why did that PSU fail AND why is any one PSU better than another? Provided (and ignored) was how to identify some defective PSU long before it fails intermittently. No useful facts were provided so that all could learn from the experience. Demonstrated is why many urban myths exist. One made strong recommendations. Eventually discovered: he knows nothing about basic PSU functions. No numbers is a first indication of hearsay, wild speculation, or outright lies.

Furthermore, if someone knows a particular PSU is bad, then he can say why with numbers. Most have no idea what a PSU does, what its many functions are, or why a PSU fails. They just know only because they used on on this unique computer and it did not work. Maybe the computer is so defective as to require PSUs that exceed what is required? They don't know. They only know based in hearsay, their one experience, and some ratings. Those ratings should also say why that particular brand is not so good ... by including the PSU subsystem that is missing or weak. All PSUs are suppose to have AC line filters and other features so that an AM radio adjacent to that computer suffers no interference. How many even knew that? All PSUs must have features so that any PSU failure cannot cause damage to other computer parts. How many even knew that? Why are those features not discussed in ratings or in recommendations in this thread? Because most who recommend power supplies know very little about what a PSU is supposed to do. Instead a 'tier' constitutes knowledge. Why did an original PSU cause problems - maybe fail. The many who recommend a PSU could not say, did not want to know, and only recited what 'tiers' or other subjective claims told them to believe. Does that PSU have required filters? How many even knew what those filters are and how to test for them? That is basic PSU knowledge - not brand name or another's observation.

It is not about knowing electrticity. It is about answers provided without perspective. The word 'surge' did not come with a number. That alone says any conclusion is probably only speculation. One type of surge is a microsecods burst of high current (not voltage). If something foolishly tries to block or stop that current, then voltage rises to destructive levels. But you did not have that anomaly. You apparently had and still have an intermittent. A defect may have existed when the machine was constructed. And is slowly becoming worse. How to find and eliminate that defect (even when the computer was new) was described previously. But this we know. That defect remains. Nothing identified what it is or fixed it.