SEASONIC issues warning for potential videocard compatibility issues with their FOCUS+ PSUs

[bitsandpieces]

https://knowledge.seasonic.com/article/20-focus-plus-and-gpu-potential-compatibility-issues

 

Quote

FOCUS PLUS & ASUS GTX970 STRIX: In very limited instances black screen may occur under heavy VGA usage. Current testing showed that certain VGA cards may emit higher than normal ripple when under heavy load and using a modified PCIe cables with enhanced shielding resolved the issue.

 

FOCUS PLUS & Vega 56/64: For units with serial numbers before January 2018, in rare instances, possible system shutdown may occur when GPU is under heavy load. This is possibly caused by higher than normal peak current emitted by this particular range of GPU's when under heavy load triggering the PSU’s internal protection safety.

 

If memory serves, there were some reported issues about AMD having higher than rated loads on the lanes, and some ASUS' cards did it too

I own a FOCUS+ GOLD 550W PSU paired with a GTX1070 and I haven't experienced any issues, but I can't say I stress the system to the extremes

 

SEASONIC have added some new details on the issue of cards triggering OCP (over current protection)

Quote

 

After recent user feedback and testing by our joint graphics card manufacturers, some FOCUS PLUS power supplies may trigger overcurrent protection due to excessive power consumption of the graphics card when using high power graphics cards. If you are using the following configuration and are experiencing similar problems, please contact Haiyun Electronics Customer Service. 

FOCUS PLUS and AMD Vega 56/64 graphics cards: 
AMD's Vega 56/64 graphics cards have very high instantaneous power consumption. The oscilloscope screenshot below shows the instantaneous current for the FurMark test with two Vega 56 CrossFires, up to 102A / 10ms. This means that the power supply must withstand 1200W in an instant. Even a single Vega 56 graphics card may have nearly 600W of instantaneous power consumption.

In this case, from the security point of view, in order to protect other parts of the computer including the graphics card, the overcurrent protection point and trigger time of some FOCUS PLUS power supplies are set sensitively. After the power supply takes protective measures, the computer may restart. , shutdown situation. 

AMD officially recommends 650W/750W for Vega 56/64 power supply. Basically, only users who use FOCUS PLUS 550 may encounter such power overload problems if the user's power supply is purchased before January 2018

 

The power purchased after January 2018 has modified the sensitivity of the overcurrent protection trigger, so users can use it with confidence. 

 

If you are using a high-power Vega water-cooled graphics card or other high-end graphics cards, please choose to purchase other power supplies with higher power ratings to ensure that the computer works properly. 

 

FOCUS PLUS and ASUS GTX970 STRIX Graphics Cards 
In rare cases, the use of FOCUS PLUS and ASUS GTX970 STRIX graphics cards may result in a continuous black screen, which is currently only present with the ASUS GTX970 STRIX graphics card. At this time, using the PCIe module line without line terminal capacitor can solve the problem. If the user encounters such problems, he can contact customer service to obtain a new PCIe module line.

 

 

Some users have "hinted" that the PSUs themselves are faulty, but from what SEASONIC sais, this is not the case in the slightest

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by bitsandpieces

[zombienerd]

This has been known for a while, and caused our local PSU expert @STRMfrmXMN to downgrade the Focus/+ PSU's down to Tier 2 instead of Tier 1.

 

I have the Focus+ Gold 750, and run Dual R9 390's overclocked.  Never had an issue.  I'm glad I didn't go Vega, lol.

[DragonTamer1]

I don't have any issues with mine running two 480s in crossfire. I'm wondering if it is just ASUS 970s or if it is all of them. It seems as though these are very specific use cases where it could be a problem.

 

The Vega issue sounds like it is on Vega itself as it sounds like the PSU is just doing as it was designed to do.

 

I typically follow an 80% rule when picking my PSU so that even at full load I still have overhead if needed.

[CarlBar]

11 minutes ago, DragonTamer1 said:

I don't have any issues with mine running two 480s in crossfire. I'm wondering if it is just ASUS 970s or if it is all of them. It seems as though these are very specific use cases where it could be a problem.

 

The Vega issue sounds like it is on Vega itself as it sounds like the PSU is just doing as it was designed to do.

 

I typically follow an 80% rule when picking my PSU so that even at full load I still have overhead if needed.

 

Yeah honestly this sounds like issues with the card models in question, not the PSU's.

[Big Head Tech]

1 minute ago, CarlBar said:

 

Yeah honestly this sounds like issues with the card models in question, not the PSU's.

I disagree.  I have a Vega 64 Sapphire Nitro+ and at stock it pulls around 250W and total system power is around 485W and I use a G3 650W PSU from EVGA.  Now if you overclock the Vega, well they can pull 400W+ easily themselves.

[bitsandpieces]

48 minutes ago, zombienerd said:

This has been known for a while, and caused our local PSU expert @STRMfrmXMN to downgrade the Focus/+ PSU's down to Tier 2 instead of Tier 1.

 

I have the Focus+ Gold 750, and run Dual R9 390's overclocked.  Never had an issue.  I'm glad I didn't go Vega, lol.

Why?! These issues sound like the video cards draw more power than rated and PSUs doing what they're supposed to do

[CarlBar]

18 minutes ago, Snaeb said:

I disagree.  I have a Vega 64 Sapphire Nitro+ and at stock it pulls around 250W and total system power is around 485W and I use a G3 650W PSU from EVGA.  Now if you overclock the Vega, well they can pull 400W+ easily themselves.

 

Total system power isn't; the only factor. an 8 pin connector is rated for a peak current of a specific value, ditto for a 6 pin. It sounds like with Vega what's happening is the cards can see peak values over these limits, and the PSU is rightly telling them no they can't have more than the pins are rated for resulting in issues.

 

EDIT: For reference assuming that a 2x8 pin supply system, (which is AFAIK the standard for vega 64), if peak draw on either 8 pin exceeds 150w your operating outside the official spec. Depending on how well the card balances it's power draw between motherboard and connectors it's entirely possible for the peak draw to run high enough on one or both connectors at stock operating mode to overstress the link.

 

The STRIX sounds like signal noise feedback from the card causing a noisy PSU, which again is the cards problem really.

[seon123]

9 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

Total system power isn't; the only factor. an 8 pin connector is rated for a peak current of a specific value, ditto for a 6 pin. It sounds like with Vega what's happening is the cards can see peak values over these limits, and the PSU is rightly telling them no they can't have more than the pins are rated for resulting in issues.

The Focus doesn't have multi rail, so it can't do that. It just seems the entire system as a single thing. 

[CarlBar]

21 minutes ago, seon123 said:

The Focus doesn't have multi rail, so it can't do that. It just seems the entire system as a single thing. 

 

Interesting, why then is it having issues?

[seon123]

6 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

Interesting, why then is it having issues?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I think it was just the 550W version. I don't think the higher wattage ones had the same issues. 

[CarlBar]

1 hour ago, seon123 said:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I think it was just the 550W version. I don't think the higher wattage ones had the same issues. 

 

Ahhh, peak load tripping over the capacity limit, that makes sense.

[Shreyas1]

5 hours ago, zombienerd said:

This has been known for a while, and caused our local PSU expert @STRMfrmXMN to downgrade the Focus/+ PSU's down to Tier 2 instead of Tier 1.

 

I have the Focus+ Gold 750, and run Dual R9 390's overclocked.  Never had an issue.  I'm glad I didn't go Vega, lol.

its tier 2 now? darn it.

[DragonTamer1]

2 hours ago, Shreyas1 said:

its tier 2 now? darn it.

I really don't think it's going to be a problem though. Like I said earlier it sounds a lot like it's an issue with the cards themselves and not the power supplies, but I'm not sure about the 970.

It's still a power supply that I would have no issue recommending to someone as long as these little oddities are taken into account.

[Shreyas1]

38 minutes ago, DragonTamer1 said:

I really don't think it's going to be a problem though. Like I said earlier it sounds a lot like it's an issue with the cards themselves and not the power supplies, but I'm not sure about the 970.

It's still a power supply that I would have no issue recommending to someone as long as these little oddities are taken into account.

I know, it's just that I feel slightly dissapointed my PSU is no longer tier 1

[Trik'Stari]

I had an issue with my EVGA GTX 660 FTW2 and my old Seasonic 750W 80+gold PSU.

 

At least, that's what EVGA's RMA team said. The only way they could replicate the issue was to use a PSU giving off unstable voltages through the PCIe cables.

 

Interestingly enough, I upgraded to a Strix 970 and the problem never happened again.

[bitsandpieces]

SEASONIC has updated their notification with some new details on the matter, I will update the OP shortly

[Vacras]

17 hours ago, DragonTamer1 said:

I don't have any issues with mine running two 480s in crossfire. I'm wondering if it is just ASUS 970s or if it is all of them.

I’ve got my MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G Oced to the Max and have never had an issue with the 550W Focus+ Gold

[Sakkura]

18 hours ago, seon123 said:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I think it was just the 550W version. I don't think the higher wattage ones had the same issues. 

I can say for sure it's not just the 550W version.

 

I got a Seasonic Focus Plus Gold 650W at Christmas last year. At the time, I was running an overclocked Core i5-3450 and R9 290. The PSU worked just fine with that hardware.

 

Later, I upgraded to a Ryzen 7 2700X, which I just run at stock. Everything still ran just fine.

 

Then I got myself a Vega 56, which uses less power than the R9 290, and the system would power off in some games (not even the most graphically demanding).

 

I swapped in the old PSU which I'd kept around, a Corsair GS600, and things were back to normal (except for more PSU fan noise, heh). That's when I went looking for an explanation, and found out about the issue. Thankfully the retailer exchanged the unit very promptly, not even asking for the old unit back, and the revised model they sent me has worked just fine.

 

(thanks Komplett, your support is great)

12 hours ago, DragonTamer1 said:

I really don't think it's going to be a problem though. Like I said earlier it sounds a lot like it's an issue with the cards themselves and not the power supplies, but I'm not sure about the 970.

It's still a power supply that I would have no issue recommending to someone as long as these little oddities are taken into account.

Not so sure it's the card's fault. No other PSUs have this issue. It just seems like Seasonic got a little too cautious with their protections, and didn't happen to test with a Vega card (or that particular 970). At least they do seem to have fixed the issue with a new revision of the Focus Plus Gold series, and there's no sign this is an actual quality issue with the underlying design.

 

18 hours ago, bitsandpieces said:

Why?! These issues sound like the video cards draw more power than rated and PSUs doing what they're supposed to do

It's definitely not just about drawing too much power.

[CarlBar]

1 hour ago, Sakkura said:

I can say for sure it's not just the 550W version.

 

I got a Seasonic Focus Plus Gold 650W at Christmas last year. At the time, I was running an overclocked Core i5-3450 and R9 290. The PSU worked just fine with that hardware.

 

Later, I upgraded to a Ryzen 7 2700X, which I just run at stock. Everything still ran just fine.

 

Then I got myself a Vega 56, which uses less power than the R9 290, and the system would power off in some games (not even the most graphically demanding).

 

I swapped in the old PSU which I'd kept around, a Corsair GS600, and things were back to normal (except for more PSU fan noise, heh). That's when I went looking for an explanation, and found out about the issue. Thankfully the retailer exchanged the unit very promptly, not even asking for the old unit back, and the revised model they sent me has worked just fine.

 

(thanks Komplett, your support is great)

Not so sure it's the card's fault. No other PSUs have this issue. It just seems like Seasonic got a little too cautious with their protections, and didn't happen to test with a Vega card (or that particular 970). At least they do seem to have fixed the issue with a new revision of the Focus Plus Gold series, and there's no sign this is an actual quality issue with the underlying design.

 

It's definitely not just about drawing too much power.

 

Really. Unusually high instantaneous power draw isn't a card level issue?

[Sakkura]

1 minute ago, CarlBar said:

 

Really. Unusually high instantaneous power draw isn't a card level issue?

AFAIK it's within the ATX spec, and it works with any other PSU (that isn't a firecracker). Including much older and lower-quality units.

[CarlBar]

19 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

AFAIK it's within the ATX spec, and it works with any other PSU (that isn't a firecracker). Including much older and lower-quality units.

 

I'm not 100% sure what the current version of the ATX power spec is, but a bit of research suggests 240w per 8 pin power connector is the official peak current standard, assuming each 8 pin is a seperate rail. PSU manufacturers cna, and presumably do allow for values above this, (hence the existence of modular cables rated for much higher sustained draw than 240w), but your technically outside the specification.

[bitsandpieces]

3 hours ago, Sakkura said:

It's definitely not just about drawing too much power.

It definitely is, read the updated OP

[Sakkura]

3 hours ago, CarlBar said:

 

I'm not 100% sure what the current version of the ATX power spec is, but a bit of research suggests 240w per 8 pin power connector is the official peak current standard, assuming each 8 pin is a seperate rail. PSU manufacturers cna, and presumably do allow for values above this, (hence the existence of modular cables rated for much higher sustained draw than 240w), but your technically outside the specification.

The power supply only has a single rail, so rail distribution literally cannot have anything to do with it. Nor does it have anything to do with the individual connectors.

2 hours ago, bitsandpieces said:

It definitely is, read the updated OP

Seasonic's update is wrong. They claim it will only happen on the 550W model, I can prove it will happen on the 650W model (and I can prove it's been fixed on the new revision).

 

Furthermore, Tom's Hardware measured the power draw spikes and found them acceptable on both the Vega 64 and 56.

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-rx-vega-64,5173-17.html

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gigabyte-radeon-rx-vega-56-gaming-oc-8g-review,5413-4.html

[CarlBar]

2 hours ago, Sakkura said:

The power supply only has a single rail, so rail distribution literally cannot have anything to do with it. Nor does it have anything to do with the individual connectors.

 

Then if the card draws over 240w it's outside the specification for a single rail PSU. (Based on the info i was able to find).

[Sakkura]

2 hours ago, CarlBar said:

 

Then if the card draws over 240w it's outside the specification for a single rail PSU. (Based on the info i was able to find).

The 20A (240W) limit per 12V rail was removed as of ATX v2.3, released in 2007.