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Battlefield V with DXR on tested from Techspot(Hardware Unboxed)

17 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It was more a diverting of resources comment not a stopping or prevention. 

Thanks. It is a scaled system. Not an one or the other. So it's scaling resources to the 4k. Not removing them from textures, lighting, polygon budget. That's all I've tried to explain.

Multiplatform games (BF5, GTA5. TombRaider) have not suffered from this limit. As they can scale to any player/user/console/PC. Exclusives though, that's different. Many games console games had draw distances, textures and poly counts reduced because of the hardware... but there was always US/EU TV res/FPS differences, Playstation/Nintendo/Microsoft hardware differences, SD - HD jump... we've been through it before with 524p vs 1080p. Technology did not stop, or the games? ?

 

The order 1886 downscaled from 1080p to 900p to allow for post processing effects. Because they could not hit 30fps on the PS4. If they aimed for 4K they would lose post processing (for example), such as DOF, screen space occlusion etc. Question is, would Sony prevent them from allowing 1080p/900p players re-enabling those settings? Would allowing a 4K toggle, aiming for 4K 30 fps, stop them enabling the post processing switch (seems like it was a modified Cryengine 3 game) on 1080p mode? If they did, that's a really bum move from Sony!!!

 

I can only go by past examples. Where some games did get features dropped because the hardware could not do it at the time. Personally I'd blame "console exclusives", and "marketing". Because those prevent games developers from having multiple targets. So yes, some things prevent them. But it's not a certain that 4K is to blame, sometimes it is marketing or industry buzzwords (RTX on!) of the week. Sometimes is is budget, game engine swaps, arguments behind the scenes or proprietary/patented code. :D

 

I totally agree with your feelings. It's just I would blame a lot more different things. :)

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20 hours ago, TechyBen said:

Ah, ok. As said. You can do a lot of things. But certain technologies or game engines are not compatible. Turns out rasterization and ray tracing is. So we get the Frostbite rasterization engine with a raycasting RTX support overlaid on it.

 

I've no idea if the game you are remembering can also do a first person shooter with aircraft (Farcry 5) or do rivers and waterfalls. I agree, it may look worse to have screen space reflections instead of planar. But most of those features are going to be artistically influenced or down to players opinion. Are we certain the games we are comparing are technologically different, and not artistically different? A fixed camera angle game renders entirely different to a moving one. The "tricks" some game engines use are not compatible with others, because the games work differently (some never change height, some never have moving lights etc).

 

One example is the baked in lighting effects. They are done by the artists and engine "pre-rendered", then the scene is setup. You get wonderful lighting on the scene, buildings etc, and can put some on characters as they move through it. However, you cannot have any of the lights/shadows moving. It's pre-rendered, so it is like a photo, overlayed on the texture/map/scene/buildings.

 

If you then wish to add moving lights, these will look strange over the top of the "baked" in lighting. So you have to choose one *or* the other. Moving lights, or baked in. Each one has different render requirements, different art, different GPU resources etc etc. Some engines like Cryengine found a way to do moving lights using less GPU power, so added that. However the quality was a little less than Volumetric lighting, so they migrated to that. BF/Frostbite and the developers of the BattleField games chose to not have the performance hit, and pre-render the lighting instead.

 

So in the Crysis games you get tons of moving lights/shadows/godrays. Or changes of day/night (so changes to lighting of the level). In BF you play the same map over and over and over. :P

 

You'd be amazed how many games use the Cryengine engine, so it's not a one off. StarCitizen uses it. But I think the engine has gone away to the wayside. With Unreal, Unity, Frostbite and a few other proprietary ones (the ones used for the Final Fantasy games) are the main things being used these days.

 

vxgi

So BF5 Could use some of these... It probably does. The NVidia presentation though, pretended these other technologies did not exist. But as far as I know, it did not stop EA adding them for when RTX is turned off. :)

 

 

 

 

The other game was using somthing with a second viewport to do very high quality reflections round corners. But i feel like you've missed somthing.

 

Just because a game uses cryengine dosen't means it's pulling a crysis.in terms of graphics for it's era. Crysis was an exception because of how insanely good, (and hard to run), the graphics where for the time period at which it was released. These days running Crysis is pretty trivial on even very low end hardware, and hardware got to the point where it could comfortably run it in a few years. Which is a long time in the PC tech industry, but still a relatively short amount of time in game release schedule terms, and later iterations of the Cry Engine have been much more performance than quality focused.

 

On top of all that there's no requirement for anyone using the CryEngine to use all of the things it can do.

 

So yes other games use cryengine. That does not in any way shape or form indicate they are implementing exceedingly hard to run on current hardware levels of graphical quality.

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17 hours ago, CarlBar said:

 

The other game was using somthing with a second viewport to do very high quality reflections round corners. But i feel like you've missed somthing.

Yep. Lots of games do the second viewport option.

 

Quote

Just because a game uses cryengine dosen't means it's pulling a crysis.in terms of graphics for it's era. 

No, but it means the technology is already there. It just has to be toggled on/off. So FarCry 5 (which has migrated aways from Cryengine, but might be an in house derivative now) can choose Planar/screenspace/etc.

 

Quote

and later iterations of the Cry Engine have been much more performance than quality focused.

Yes. As said, they dropped SuperSampling AntiAlising. They dropped some of their lighting tech (from true lighting, to additive 2d planes, to volumetric, to other shortcuts). The "Supersampling" tech is still there, the option to inject it in a shader is still there, but the hardware still cannot do it. It's not the developers/art team stopping people, or even the technology. The maths means some tech does not scale the way some people assume it does.

 

For example 1080p + 2x Supersampling == 4K. So no one is hiding a tech to prevent people using it... if we cannot do 4K we also cannot improve 1080p with Supersampling. So some tech scales with resolution, some scales the opposite, and some is less required (anti aliasing). A 4K game could use the GPU cycles wasted on antialiasing for something else. A 1080p game may have to waste cycles on antialiasing.

 

I've only said there is no roadblock to the art or technology. It will be a development, marketing or hardware choice. :)

 

RTX may change things. RTX is proprietary and hardware dependent. DX12/Vulcan Raycasting will not be. So we will have to see which wins out, or if the tools will allow scaling/multi platform interpolation.

 

Quote

On top of all that there's no requirement for anyone using the CryEngine to use all of the things it can do.

Yes! So, why blame the engine or the resolution target? Who decides what technology is used in "Grown Home", or "The Order 1886"? Who chooses if BFV gets RTX or Planar reflections? If it gets MSAA or Supersampling?

 

RTX is nearly as bad a sponsorship/proprietary/exclusivity as "Only on PS4" or "Only on PhysX". It's a really poor choice, but it's not a limit of the tech or art department. :)

 

Here is a good video comparing the quality:

 

The tech can do and cannot do some things. It can be scaled to some extent. Notice how BFV is really poor at knowing if the scene has any RTX elements (water/metal) and keeps polling/FPS down because it's still trying to render the empty RTX layer. So a lot of improvement can be made... but it still won't run on a 1030GTX, even if we had an infinite budget and infinite time. :P

 

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Everyone that complains about the fps drop by using this feature, read this.

 

These cards are doing real time ray tracing. It is GOING TO BE INTENSIVE. This is by far the most amazing breakthrough we've had in graphics technology so far. Give it time. Also, global illumination and other factors are not yet activated in BF V DXR. 

 

Give. It. Time.

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1 minute ago, Brehohn said:

Everyone that complains about the fps drop by using this feature, read this.

 

These cards are doing real time ray tracing. It is GOING TO BE INTENSIVE. This is by far the most amazing breakthrough we've had in graphics technology so far. Give it time. Also, global illumination and other factors are not yet activated in BF V DXR. 

 

Give. It. Time.

It seems the latest way to shit on a company you don't like is to deny them the same product development time as every other damn product ever took (even when it's faster).

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It seems the latest way to shit on a company you don't like is to deny them the same product development time as every other damn product ever took (even when it's faster).

Couldnt of said it better. I dont understand why people are so hell bent on a card that is able to do 1080p60 ray tracing, real time. I sometimes feel part of a minority of people that goes, "Wow. This is really cool! The future is bright!"

 

Like, what else do people want? RTX is more powerful in terms of ray tracing performance and slightly more than the previous. Meanwhile, we have AMD giving us nothing. 

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3 minutes ago, Brehohn said:

Like, what else do people want? RTX is more powerful in terms of ray tracing performance and slightly more than the previous. Meanwhile, we have AMD giving us nothing. 

Maybe that's the problem,  people are trying to compensate for the lack of AMD presence.   

 

For me it just gets tiring hearing the same inane accusations where no evidence exists to support such positions.  People feel they have to prove a product will fail or in some cases actually promote failure because they want to see the "other brand" succeed.  

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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3 hours ago, mr moose said:

It seems the latest way to shit on a company you don't like is to deny them the same product development time as every other damn product ever took (even when it's faster).

Don't release something as a product if it's not ready. That's like releasing an aircraft that can barely fly. Technically it's an aircraft and yes, technically it can fly. But it's doing that very poorly. It's the same with ray tracing. Sure, it's ray tracing, but it's running so poorly I don't think it's worth it.

 

I can't wait the day when ray tracing will be something as casual as cubemaps are these days. Walking past things and seeing your own character in them or using reflections as advantage that would be equal to everyone (like watching a reflection in windows, metal surfaces, even floors etc. I'm already using shadows regularly in games to pinpoint players, so it will be cool.

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4 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Don't release something as a product if it's not ready. That's like releasing an aircraft that can barely fly. Technically it's an aircraft and yes, technically it can fly. But it's doing that very poorly. It's the same with ray tracing. Sure, it's ray tracing, but it's running so poorly I don't think it's worth it.

 

I can't wait the day when ray tracing will be something as casual as cubemaps are these days. Walking past things and seeing your own character in them or using reflections as advantage that would be equal to everyone (like watching a reflection in windows, metal surfaces, even floors etc. I'm already using shadows regularly in games to pinpoint players, so it will be cool.

This proves my point.  you are ignoring the fact that nearly every new tech in computing/gaming gets released with minimal usability/support.  This is no different.  you are trying to make it sound like something it's not by comparing it to an airplane.  Really? a plane?

 

 

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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1 minute ago, mr moose said:

This proves my point.  you are ignoring the fact that nearly every new tech in computing/gaming gets released with minimal usability/support.  This is no different.  you are trying to make it sound like something it's not by comparing it to an airplane.  Really? a plane?

What if RTX came out with Geforce 20 series being the same cost, or better yet cheaper, than Geforce 10 series. Comments would be rather different under a different lens. 80% of it is it sucks because it's expensive to own and use, the other 20% is the less than expected performance increase over last generation.

 

You can tell what people are actually trying to criticize and it's not RTX, that's just an easy punching bag heh.

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

What if RTX came out with Geforce 20 series being the same cost, or better yet cheaper, than Geforce 10 series. Comments would be rather different under a different lens. 80% of it is it sucks because it's expensive to own and use, the other 20% is the less than expected performance increase over last generation.

 

You can tell what people are actually trying to criticize and it's not RTX, that's just an easy punching bag heh.

Then people should grow some genitalia and stand behind their convictions rather than misrepresenting how new tech evolves and develops.  I have more respect for someone who just says, it's too expensive and I don't like Nvidia than I do someone who conflates erroneous arguments to bolster an opinion they are clearly insecure about having on it's own.

 

 

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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31 minutes ago, mr moose said:

This proves my point.  you are ignoring the fact that nearly every new tech in computing/gaming gets released with minimal usability/support.  This is no different.  you are trying to make it sound like something it's not by comparing it to an airplane.  Really? a plane?

 

 

Yeah, because airplane that looks like one but can't fly reliably can't be used. How is comparison with graphic card that can do ray tracing but isn't really usable any different. People really don't get even the most basic analogies these days. Heh. When pixel shaders came out, they were perfectly usable on GeForce 3 and Radeon 8500. And that was really a huge thing in graphics back then.

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6 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Yeah, because airplane that looks like one but can't fly reliably can't be used. How is comparison with graphic card that can do ray tracing but isn't really usable any different. People really don't get even the most basic analogies these days. Heh. When pixel shaders came out, they were perfectly usable on GeForce 3 and Radeon 8500. And that was really a huge thing in graphics back then.

Like I said:

 

4 hours ago, mr moose said:

It seems the latest way to shit on a company you don't like is to deny them the same product development time as every other damn product ever took (even when it's faster).

 

You clearly missed the bit where its common (very common) for new tech to hit the shelves with minimal support.  It takes time for tech to mature, ignoring that in order to have a whinge about product that you aren't actually forced to buy or that in anyway holds a monopoly over your pc experience is just ignorance at best.

 

 

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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4 hours ago, Brehohn said:

Give. It. Time.

Here is the problem with that statement. While I do agree with what @mr moose says about how the tech develops and yes, the time needs to be given but there is an inherent problem with waiting while sitting on a new $1100 GPU.

 

And the problem is that by the time RTX is worth considering as technology that is noticeable in the industry, time will come for the next generation of GPU. It is a risk.

 

Right now we have one game that supports RTX and that support is shaky at times. One of the others, Shadow of the Tomb Raider, has been around long enough that people who wanted to play the game have already played it and the RTX update will be an interesting novelty at best. It's a shame though since SotTR would be perfect to show the capabilities of RTX with not only reflections but shadows and lights as well (as demonstrated during the launch). 

 

Unfortunately it doesn't seem like Square Enix are in a hurry to implement the tech anytime soon. 

 

As long as games will be launching with no RTX and shaky promise that we will get an update 6 months later, it's simply not going to work. It would be 10x better from the tech standpoint if they delayed the Tomb Raider game until it's ready and implemented because then maybe people who cared about it and wanted to play would have some fun with it.

 

As such, I think most people who bought the game and finished it at least once and have RTX capable cards will maybe spend 10-15 minutes after update to compare ON vs. OFF and that's it.

 

Final Fantasy XV - oh god, I don't even know where to begin. Main story director quit, the project was abandoned and 3/4 of DLC have been cancelled. To be honest I don't even know whether they will deliver the DLSS support for the actual game and wouldn't be surprised if they just gave up on it. And we are talking about a game that would actually benefit from the tech immensely since it's incredibly hard to run. And again, we are talking about a game that has been released few months ago on PC.

 

Denying that RTX has a rough start is just deluding oneself. The tech is important and it's powerful and makes a difference but as long as the games are launched without it with a promise of an update as an afterthought, people might as well just wait for the next gen GPU's which will support it better.

 

As such, my thanks go to all the RTX owners because they are the first line on the figurative battlefied of tech advancement. Without those cards there wouldn't be RTX tech in games at all and what they are doing is making it possible for people like me to enjoy it more when we buy the next gen GPU's.

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1 minute ago, Lathlaer said:

Unfortunately it doesn't seem like Square Enix are in a hurry to implement the tech anytime soon. 

Square Enix are never in a hurry to do anything lol. That's what I love, and hate, about them.

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nVidia be like, the The current RTX line up can't ray trace in games, what do?

 

- Optimize drivers and game engines on software level to improve performance? Nope.

- Release an yet even more expensive GPU with more cores inside of it? Hell yeah.

 

RTX Titan to the rescue, for that sweet 1080p75hz Ray Traced gaming experience.

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1 minute ago, Lathlaer said:

Here is the problem with that statement. While I do agree with what @mr moose says about how the tech develops and yes, the time needs to be given but there is an inherent problem with waiting while sitting on a new $1100 GPU.

 

And the problem is that by the time RTX is worth considering as technology that is noticeable in the industry, time will come for the next generation of GPU. It is a risk.

 

 

2 things here:

 

1. how long it takes to become a usable feature that people enjoy is an unknown, you can no more claim it will take forever making this specific product pointless than I can claim it will be done in less than 6 months making this product very on point.

 

2. If people don't like what it has to offer then don't buy it,  it's pretty simple to just wait and see what happens.  In my opinion how long it takes for RT or DLSS to be the thing is just the early adopters tax, when you live on the bleeding edge you sometimes get cut, that is the risk people take and it isn't new with RTX.

 

 

 

 

 

 

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

how long it takes to become a usable feature that people enjoy is an unknown, you can no more claim it will take forever making this specific product pointless than I can claim it will be done in less than 6 months making this product very on point.

I'm just saying that from the RTX tech standpoint it would be much better if they delayed the game and released it RTX capable on day 1 instead of releasing the game with a promise of an update who knows when but likely after most people who wanted to play the game have already finished it ?

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2 minutes ago, Lathlaer said:

I'm just saying that from the RTX tech standpoint it would be much better if they delayed the game and released it RTX capable on day 1 instead of releasing the game with a promise of an update who knows when but likely after most people who wanted to play the game have already finished it ?

fair enough.

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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13 minutes ago, Lathlaer said:

I'm just saying that from the RTX tech standpoint it would be much better if they delayed the game and released it RTX capable on day 1 instead of releasing the game with a promise of an update who knows when but likely after most people who wanted to play the game have already finished it ?

If it were actually a Square Enix developed game and on a primary release rather than a PC port no doubt that would have been the case, those guys are nutters for perfection. Only issue with that is you can polish and tweak too much and end up making the product worse than if you had just left it as it was, imperfect but closer to the original vision.

 

Both SotTR and FFXV are rather bad case studies on RTX as neither were actually developed for it or with it in mind as a core technical part of the games, and one is a console port as well. Even BFV gives off the sense of tacked on rather than ingrained in the core of the game.

 

Hopefully some much better games come along soon, from a more development maturity standpoint so we can judge them and compare with those previous. Seeing the first round vs the second round of games is going to be very interesting, that's where I see the make or break coming from.

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24 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

RTX Titan to the rescue, for that sweet 1080p75hz Ray Traced gaming experience.

combo with the 2200G and a 1080p 75hz freesync monitor for budget Raytracing experience.

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1 hour ago, Princess Cadence said:

RTX Titan to the rescue, for that sweet 1080p75hz Ray Traced gaming experience.

Dat moment where you want to advertise your card for non-gaming pro segment but also want to tell everyone that it can deliver best gaming RTX experience.

 

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Well this seems relevant to the discussion ?

 

 

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4 hours ago, Princess Cadence said:

- Optimize drivers and game engines on software level to improve performance? Nope.

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/battlefield-v-december-4-dxr-update/

(think this is same as video @Lathlaer posted, but in text form. I haven't seen vid yet)

 

Apparently they did. "up to" 50% more performance. I hate "up to" in marketing speak. 0% is still up to 50%.

 

They now claim:

Quote

Specifically, GeForce RTX 2080 Ti users will now be able to play at over 60 FPS at 2560x1440 with DXR Raytraced Reflections set to Ultra. GeForce RTX 2080 users will be able to play at over 60 FPS at 2560x1440 with Medium DXR Raytraced Reflections. And GeForce RTX 2070 users will be able to play at over 60 FPS at 1920x1080 with Medium DXR Raytraced Reflections.

Didn't 2080 and 2080Ti have same rated gigarays? So why the difference in DXR, unless that is limited more by the other parts.

 

Two thoughts: 1, I look forward to the usual sites doing retesting after this patch to see what the performance increase actually is. 2, even if this improves significantly, nvidia may have given themselves more work to do to sell RTX as everyone is thinking of the original performance. Would they have been better off holding back until this update was ready?

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5 minutes ago, porina said:

Didn't 2080 and 2080Ti have same rated gigarays? So why the difference in DXR, unless that is limited more by the other parts.

No. The 2080 has 8 and the 2080 Ti has 10.

Dell S2417DG - RTX 3070 XC3 - R5 3600

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