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Intel 9th Gen Paid Benchmarks Take Advantage of NDA Periods

Carclis
6 minutes ago, Lathlaer said:

Yeah but for instance my ingame Tomb Raider benchmarks are consistent with each other (1-2fps variance). They might differ from the fps I get from fraps or from MSI Afterburner but it doesn't matter as long as it gets tested the same.

 

I guess what I mean is that it only matters if you test benchmark vs. fraps. As long as you test benchmarks vs. benchmark or fraps vs. fraps everything is cool.

 

Unless it's been somehow proven that ingame benchmarks favor one platform over the other for some reason.

You have a point, though, maybe not all in-game benchmarks are created equally ?

 

It could be nitpicking from Steve but it’s probably good to keep consistency as you mentioned.

 

I haven’t heard games being bias to one side or the other. I could imagine a game like Hitman performing better on AMD hardware but that could only be represented in a graphics score alone. I’m not sure to be honest.

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16 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well I know for sure next to nobody buying a 2700X will get 64GB ram though. 

I'd not phrase it that way, with RAM Prices as they are right now, I'd say that nobody that doesn't need 64GiB RAM for his/her workload, will get it.

 

It is not dependant on the CPU/Plattform, though its more likely that one on HEDT might have 64GiB RAM than one on a Desktop/Notebook Plattform, with that I'd agree.

 

BUT: if you know what you're doing and need the memory, I'd say its more likely on AMDs normal Desktop/Mobile Plattform than on LGA115x because AMD does support ECC, Intel does not with higher end CPUs. IIRC they do on i3 but not 5 or better...

 

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Sure people do a lot worse but there were some configuration choices that realistically wouldn't happen like the manually lowering of frequency after applying XMP, unless there is a stability problem.

Totally agree with that.

And its more likely ti find 16GiB right now than 64GiB, unless you really need it...

And you'd want the Speed you can get out of the memory so that you can get the best performance...

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I don't think Steve's point was no one would game on the stock cooler it was about reducing variables in the tests and by having different coolers you have introduced a variable.

It gives the Intel a possible advantage as it is possible that XFR2 doesn't boost as high as it could when cooled with the same heatsink...

So another one that could potentially reduce the Performance of AMD...

 

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Many do game with the stock cooler, many also buy after market so either configuration is representative of the average consumer however in this situation testing methodology should take precedence.

That wasn't his point, it was that it is unfair due to the different performance of the Heatsink it could potentially be another point that might favour Intel and disadvantages AMD...

 

Though there aren't many XFR2 Tests with Boxed vs. good After Market Heatsink and Fan...

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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44 minutes ago, ZacoAttaco said:

To me the cooling solution between AMD and Intel is what killed it

For me, what killed it was finding out they disabled half the cores on the 2700x.  That was the clincher which eliminated any possible leniency I might have granted them.

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35 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

I'd not phrase it that way, with RAM Prices as they are right now, I'd say that nobody that doesn't need 64GiB RAM for his/her workload, will get it.

I would and did because people that actually need 64GB of ram wouldn't in all likelihood be getting a 2700X so next to no one applies rather well.

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

I would and did because people that actually need 64GB of ram wouldn't in all likelihood be getting a 2700X so next to no one applies rather well.

Yeah, but they wouldn't get an i7-8700K either, would they?

 

They would look at the HEDT Plattforms because if you need the RAM, the probability that you can use 16 Cores/32 Threads is pretty high.

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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39 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

That wasn't his point, it was that it is unfair due to the different performance of the Heatsink it could potentially be another point that might favour Intel and disadvantages AMD...

Yes that was the point, by having different coolers thereby another variable you are potentially testing the thermal differences of the cooler and not the CPU or become limited by the cooler than otherwise not have been if standardized on a single cooler choice.

 

It's saying the same thing but more clearly defining why. Has nothing to do with fairness it's about variability and methodology, you can call it fairness but fairness really isn't the issue. Is it fair to compare such differing cost CPUs? If that is what is being requested then an unfair comparison is fine so long as the methodology behind the comparison is sound and technically on point.

 

Fairness just isn't a word used scientifically so I choose not to use it when there are more apt choices of words available.

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17 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yeah, but they wouldn't get an i7-8700K either, would they?

 

They would look at the HEDT Plattforms because if you need the RAM, the probability that you can use 16 Cores/32 Threads is pretty high.

I'm not sure why you bothered to bring it up though? What has the 8700k got to do with it, if you agree that the majority of people buying 2700X won't be getting 64GB of ram why offer a counter argument. It's pretty obvious that people with those higher end requirements would likely go for a different platform choice.

 

And if even ram prices were lower it wouldn't make it much more likely that people would get 64GB ram either, it's past the point of any single dual channel memory kit.

 

Seems a little silly to raise a point that applies to less than 1% (wild ass number) of the buyers of that CPU, which is why Steve questioned the choice of that in the first place.

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8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I'm not sure why you bothered to bring it up though?

Because you are kinda misleading, aren't you?
Because its more likely to get 64GiB RAM on 2700x because of ECC Support than on LGA115x, when you know what you are doing.

And its equally unlikely on both Plattforms.

 

So wouldn't it more true if you would mention that its the same on LGA115x than it is on 2700x??

And people who would consider 64GiB Memory most likely will look at HEDT.

 

Quote

What has the 8700k got to do with it, if you agree that the majority of people buying 2700X won't be getting 64GB of ram why offer a counter argument. It's pretty obvious that people with those higher end requirements would likely go for a different platform choice.

Because its not specific to 2700x but the Desktop/Notebook Plattform and something that is more a thing that points towards HEDT Plattforms for various reasons...

 

Quote

And if even ram prices were lower it wouldn't make it much more likely that people would get 64GB ram either

Yes, it would, depending on the price differences of course...

 

As it would allow to just go with the higher capacity, even if you do not need it right now.

But for that to happen, the prices have to be at least 1/3 of what they are now and the 64GiB Set has to be 150€ or less.

So Price is a point that is more important because that influences strongly the ammount to get...

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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32 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Because you are kinda misleading, aren't you?
Because its more likely to get 64GiB RAM on 2700x because of ECC Support than on LGA115x, when you know what you are doing.

And its equally unlikely on both Plattforms.

ECC is not a requirement for 64GB ram, it's not even a factor. You're only thinking it's misleading because you're attributing my remarks in some way to the 8700k or 9700k/9900k about the ram.

 

All I said is that next to nobody who is buying a 2700X will be getting 64GB ram becuase the comment I was replying to was in reference to stock cooler and 64GB ram and that could only be about the 2700X, just don't infer what isn't there and there is no issue.

 

And if you go back to my original remark I said the module sizes should be matched on all systems because that is the correct way to do it, so dual channel systems would have half the capacity of quad channel systems.

 

32 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yes, it would, depending on the price differences of course...

No because it would require buying 2 memory kits which is unlikely. If someone wants to go silly they will get the biggest single kit they can which would be 32GB (2x16GB).

 

You're back to arguing the 1% and I just don't see the point in that.

 

Further to the ECC thing you keep bringing up that's really not important here. AMD Ryzen only supports Unbuffered memory (UDIMM) so the maximum supported memory configuration is equal between UDIMM and ECC UDIMM, that's why it makes no difference because it has no impact on the memory configuration options and that applies to both AMD and Intel on the desktop CPUs that have support for ECC.

 

To go above 16GB memory module sizes you need Registered memory, RDIMM, which Ryzen does not support. Threadripper supports ECC RDIMM but Skylake-X does not. Not many people know the difference between Unbuffered and Registered memory because it's only ever applied to higher end servers in the past, but even with Threadripper support for it it's usage will be limited because it costs more and is not overclockable nor has things like XMP/DOCP profiles and runs at JDEC speeds.

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Wow this is a good tactic. 

I'm surprised EA or activision-blizzard don't have IGN release their paid review of their games while other reviewers are still under NDA.  

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

ECC is not a requirement for 64GB ram, it's not even a factor.

It is because of what ECC does.

 

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

You're only thinking it's misleading because you're attributing my remarks in some way to the 8700k or 9700k/9900k about the ram.

yes, because next to nobody with an 8700/9700/9900 will get 64GiB RAM either.

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Further to the ECC thing you keep bringing up that's really not important here.

It is because if you want 64GiB RAM, you probably doin work with the Machine and probably want to minimize the potential errors that might happen.

So you might want to go with ECC RAM because of that as well.

 

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

AMD Ryzen only supports Unbuffered memory (UDIMM) so the maximum supported memory configuration is equal between UDIMM and ECC UDIMM, that's why it makes no difference because it has no impact on the memory configuration options and that applies to both AMD and Intel on the desktop CPUs that have support for ECC.

True, but as I said, when you need 64GiB RAM, you probably also want ECC because it minimizes potential errors and you see sooner that your RAM is causing errors.

 

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

To go above 16GB memory module sizes you need Registered memory, RDIMM, which Ryzen does not support. Threadripper supports ECC RDIMM but Skylake-X does not.

Have you tried it?

Because sometimes it says it doesn't work, when it does.

If you come across a newer K8 and an ASUS Board, you can try sticking in Registred ECC RAM - ant it will work. Sadly AMD disabled that for K10...

 

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Not many people know the difference between Unbuffered and Registered memory because it's only ever applied to higher end servers in the past,

...or Socket 940, but you can also use it with some S939 Boards and AM2 as well, AM2+ sadly not anymore...

 

And its only buffering the adresslines...

 

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

but even with Threadripper support for it it's usage will be limited because it costs more and is not overclockable nor has things like XMP/DOCP profiles and runs at JDEC speeds.

Right now, yes.

In the future, no.

In the future, the Registred ECC Sticks will be cheaper and more available because there is little to no demand for it - like it is right now with DDR-1 SDRAM. You can get 2GiB Sticks and use them in more modern S939 Systems, wich you can use then again for a Office Machine (with WIndows 7/x64, 8 and later doesn't work or Linux).

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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5 minutes ago, Syntaxvgm said:

Wow this is a good tactic. 

I'm surprised EA or activision-blizzard don't have IGN release their paid review of their games while other reviewers are still under NDA.  

I think they're too busy brainstorming ideas on how to get 8 year old kids hooked to gambling without getting fined by an EU commission.

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34 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Have you tried it?

I don't need to, it's not supported and locked out via CPU microcode and no motherboard supports it either.

 

34 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

It is because of what ECC does.

Almost nothing unless it's an RDIMM because ECC alone does a lot less than you think it does. ECC UDIMM is a waste of time and money.

 

34 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

In the future, the Registred ECC Sticks will be cheaper and more available because there is little to no demand for it

That won't happen because Intel memory controllers on the desktop CPUs have no support for it and Intel will never bring support for it, it's just not required. UDIMMs will get larger, RDIMMS will firmly stay in the server realm.

 

34 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

If you come across a newer K8 and an ASUS Board, you can try sticking in Registred ECC RAM - ant it will work. Sadly AMD disabled that for K10...

Pretty sure this falls under the category of people not knowing what ECC, ECC UDIMM and ECC RDIMM are because I don't think K8 and RDIMM was ever a thing. It did support ECC UDIMM yes, or as people just said ECC back then. And well to be actually more correct back then it was FB-DIMM, Fully Buffered, which is not the same and Registered. FB-DIMM and RDIMM both existed in DDR2 era but FB-DIMM was the large capacity memory module of choice where it is now RDIMM because current RDIMM allows what FB-DIMM did back then.

 

The reason why I know it wasn't a thing back then is because FB-DIMMs physically don't go in UDIMM slots.

 

34 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

yes, because next to nobody with an 8700/9700/9900 will get 64GiB RAM either.

Only you are talking about those CPUs, I was not and never was. This ends here on that topic, there was never an issue, or misleading only your unwanted objection to an issue that never existed. And yes that is annoying.

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3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Well I know for sure next to nobody buying a 2700X will get 64GB ram though. Sure people do a lot worse but there were some configuration choices that realistically wouldn't happen like the manually lowering of frequency after applying XMP, unless there is a stability problem.

 

I don't think Steve's point was no one would game on the stock cooler it was about reducing variables in the tests and by having different coolers you have introduced a variable. Many do game with the stock cooler, many also buy after market so either configuration is representative of the average consumer however in this situation testing methodology should take precedence.

Steve does this for a living and in a crazy professional and detailed way, those guys don't even appear to do this for a hobby let alone every day. It seems weird Steve doesn't get that. PT made some weird choices for sure but also a lot of mistakes someone not into this would do.

My point is Steve set a bar very high for someone that clearly knows very little. He should really ask Intel instead why they chose them and let them publish that as a product they bought.

Or better yet my point is go to Intel not this poor bastards.

 

still i would contest that statement about 2700x and 64Gb, i bet there are out there people with much worst choices, either by themselves or pushed by some vendor. The manually tweaking yes that you're right, but i fell this was a case of lack of knowledge with maybe some Intel interference, maybe...

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5 minutes ago, asus killer said:

Steve does this for a living and in a crazy professional and detailed way, those guys don't even appear to do this for a hobby let alone every day.

Well in a way their business does claim to be just that, and is also sort of stated in the interview. How much they actually do and how technically competent they are I don't know, but enough to be charging for it.

 

Quote

As the world’s leading fact-based marketing firm, we have the expertise and facilities to perform hands-on assessments of your technology products – servers, storage, laptops, tablets, smartphones, software, and more – and deliver the facts that make them shine. We outsource nothing: we perform all testing and create all marketing materials in our on-site data center, lab, and studio facilities. From a project as simple as demonstrating a laptop’s battery-life superiority, to one as complex as multi-workload visualization proof points with an accompanying live-action video, we can complete any marketing mission you want. Whatever the format of the deliverable, the facts are front and center.

https://www.principledtechnologies.com/services-marketing

 

Apparently they do there own testing of everything including servers, surely some game benchmarks is within the capability to do correctly. If a bunch of mostly idiots on youtube can then surely seasoned experts that have been in it longer than Steve has been alive can to ?.

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that interview was 42 minutes of "I dont know" and some slick sidestepping.   Not sure how i should give anyone there any respect for going on camera impromtu when they cant even answer for their own mistakes.

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Thread brings up something that has always bothered me about benchmarking in general - consistency

 

I don't think anyone should be able to compare systems that are running different versions of the same benchmark for example because it can influence the results and yes I'm aware that basically eliminates anything with auto updates or distributed through steam.   In a professional (Read: scientific) testing environment it's absolutely critical to be reproduceable. 

 

There are certification bodies obviously governing components (USB / PCIe conformance for example), but I'm not aware of any official labs that do testing like this for systems.   Which means we plance a whole hell of a lot on what a realtively few group of amateur people report.   By no means is that meant as an insult it's just there are no NIST's of the computer world.   Larger vendors like Dell or IBM have their own verification process which they based their waranty programs on but that isn't exatly public.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Gullerback said:

that interview was 42 minutes of "I dont know" and some slick sidestepping.   Not sure how i should give anyone there any respect for going on camera impromtu when they cant even answer for their own mistakes.

It's not like he personally did the tests or was even involved on a technical level with them, he's one of the business founders and an executive. A team of people, likely just a few, would have done the actual testing.

 

Being impromptu also means unprepared so some leeway is warranted. 

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45 minutes ago, Gullerback said:

that interview was 42 minutes of "I dont know" and some slick sidestepping.   Not sure how i should give anyone there any respect for going on camera impromtu when they cant even answer for their own mistakes.

Many of those questions have been answered in the emails that followed the actual interview. I've updated the original post with them.

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55 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well in a way their business does claim to be just that, and is also sort of stated in the interview. How much they actually do and how technically competent they are I don't know, but enough to be charging for it.

 

https://www.principledtechnologies.com/services-marketing

 

Apparently they do there own testing of everything including servers, surely some game benchmarks is within the capability to do correctly. If a bunch of mostly idiots on youtube can then surely seasoned experts that have been in it longer than Steve has been alive can to ?.

they are a MARKETING company that does tests to tech products. The marketing part should tell Intel right they were not the best fit. Besides that i do thing they know tech, but they don't know much about the gaming industry. And this is one insanely specific industry inside tech, crazy specific.

 

Being a little on the naughty side, i would say that was exactly why Intel choose them, so they could pull the strings a little without them complaining to much. Any other serious gaming related company probably would never accept interferences from Intel. Maybe those interferences happened or not, i'm not saying they did mind you.

.

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1 hour ago, leadeater said:

https://www.principledtechnologies.com/services-marketing

 

Apparently they do there own testing of everything including servers, surely some game benchmarks is within the capability to do correctly. If a bunch of mostly idiots on youtube can then surely seasoned experts that have been in it longer than Steve has been alive can to ?.

Well on this: the "idiots" on youtube that do not get to the top of the viewership because of their personality as a hosts (Yes, pun definitively intended) are usually selected by the audience because of their very specialized set of skills.

 

On a more professional level like this company, well I wouldn't be surprised if it was just some IT guys and some suit friends that got together and know really well how to sell their limited expertise on the subjects through a bunch of corporate talk: "We at Principled Technologies thrive on the innovation of ideas that will synergize with your IT validation needs!'

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16 hours ago, Syntaxvgm said:

Wow this is a good tactic. 

I'm surprised EA or activision-blizzard don't have IGN release their paid review of their games while other reviewers are still under NDA.  

I'm not sure if this remark is poking fun at the state of the industry or genuinely unaware that it's basically already happening.

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32 minutes ago, Carclis said:

I'm not sure if this remark is poking fun at the state of the industry or genuinely unaware that it's basically already happening.

I've not read a games review in years. And from now on, i won't trust a tech review unless the journalist can with absolute certainty prove that not even an NDA agreement was signed. I don't care much for day 1 reviews anyway, i'm happy to wait until the product, which was paid for by the reviewer, has been shipped. With these recent reveals, the consumers should be even more strict than we have been in the past.

 

Free sample - Not ok

Paid sample ahead of time - Not ok

 

I don't care how sincere the tech press may be, or how much they insist that they are independent. A select few ''journalists'' and the actions of certain companies, have ensured that my standards have reached levels that some may describe as unreasonable.

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55 minutes ago, Carclis said:

I'm not sure if this remark is poking fun at the state of the industry or genuinely unaware that it's basically already happening.

I wasn't aware IGN had a noticeable difference in release times for their reviews, then again I try and stay away from IGN for the most part.

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