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Linux Dev's threaten to pull killswitch over CoC (somewhat clickbaity title)

Message added by colonel_mortis

Please keep in mind that there are lots of different perspectives within our community, and the tech community in general. Just because someone is saying something that you disagree with, does not mean that they are inherently wrong or stupid, just that they are looking at this divisive issue from a different perspective. There are no right or wrong answers to this issue.

 

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34 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

Do you really think that because sexual discrimination is a criminal offense or a violation of the CoC, people would not do it? I find the other CoC the Ruby dev posted far better, because it does explicitly mention that sexual discrimination (among other bad things) is not allowed.

I think @LAwLz's point there was there is no reason to bring sexual orientation into the conversation when working together on code in the first place. Not that people wouldn't do it just because it's stated that it shouldn't be done in the CoC. 

 

34 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

Homophobia is intolerance, yes. A tolerant society should reject intolerance.

What is intolerance in your eyes may not be intolerance in others, to someone who is homophobic - being tolerant of homosexuals could easily be intolerance of said person's homophobic views. Intolerance goes both ways, it's easily flipped around. 

"Only the Sith deals in absolutes" sorta thing lol....

 

Your talking of a tolerant society where everyone essentially already has inherent agreement on what is tolerant and intolerant. That's not the society we have right now, it would in a sense be fighting intolerance with intolerance. 

 

34 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

It affects my ability to live? It affects my ability to hold my boyfriend's hand in public without getting stabbed? Even if they don't act upon their intolerance, that doesn't help me or anyone else get the equality we, as humans, deserve.

 

You'd be surprised at how many people have called me a "faggot" (among other wonderful words) for being gay. If anyone's gonna call me that, it's me! Sure, we've made progress, at least in western countries, but there's still a long way to go (especially in other parts of the world.)

I don't know what part of the state your living in but if reactions are that violent on a daily basis that's a horrid place to live. Western countries have made good progress indeed, other parts of the world that don't hold western values at the forefront you'll find hard pressed to change in a short time frame unfortunately. 

 

If you come across someone who is intolerant of your homosexuality or any of your other views what do you think is the best course of action to help sway them to be more tolerant? Do you berate them about being intolerant and just state your side of story on how you perceive it? Or do you start dialogue with them, try to better understand why they have such views so you have a better gauge on how to change their viewpoint? 

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49 minutes ago, Sauron said:

You can ask of someone to not bring that up in kernel related channels - and of course you can demand that they don't attack or harass anyone because of that opinion.

Not quite - there's a difference between thinking that being gay is wrong and hating someone for being gay. You have a right to your viewpoint so long as it's not actively harmful to other people. If my opinion is that stealing should be legal, that doesn't mean I won't be prosecuted for stealing - but I won't be touched so long as I don't translate that thought into action.

That doesn't make the attacks that still occur any better...

There's nothing about what the CoC says that makes it inherently political - unless, as I said, your politics involve harassment and bullying, in which case I don't think there's much more to discuss. There's an inherent paradox in the question of whether we should tolerate the intolerant - if you tolerate and ignore their positions, other people will suffer the consequences; if you don't, you aren't being 100% tolerant. Most people agree that in that situation, people who refuse to be tolerant should not be tolerated.

Honestly I think hating isn't any more than a strong opinion. Again if you don't act on that hate then everything is fine. 

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6 minutes ago, MyInnerFred said:

I think @LAwLz's point there was there is no reason to bring sexual orientation into the conversation when working together on code in the first place. Not that people wouldn't do it just because it's stated that it shouldn't be done in the CoC. 

Oh, I'm not saying that I'd just randomly bring it up. Not at all. I'm just worried about being personally attacked over something I have no control over more. I didn't choose to be attracted to other men, y'know.

 

8 minutes ago, MyInnerFred said:

I don't know what part of the state your living in but if reactions are that violent on a daily basis that's a horrid place to live.

Bristol County, MA. We got meth labs, racists, homophobes and no opportunity unless you wanna be a factory worker. Wonderful place, really /s

 

11 minutes ago, MyInnerFred said:

Western countries have made good progress indeed, other parts of the world that don't hold western values at the forefront you'll find hard pressed to change in a short time frame unfortunately. 

Unfortunately.

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34 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

It affects my ability to live? It affects my ability to hold my boyfriend's hand in public without getting stabbed? Even if they don't act upon their intolerance, that doesn't help me or anyone else get the equality we, as humans, deserve.

You could just as easily get stabbed because you decided to wear the color orange that day. If that happened does the fact that you were stabbed based on that person's belief suddenly make the right to wear orange as high a priority issue as equality for everyone? Apparently I'm the only person conservative enough to want the government out of marriage entirely, so no tax benefits or other legal privileges (aside from any contract that is entered into among the parties involved that is) for marriage at all and I say this as a currently married individual. Then your marriage is only between you, your significant other(s), and whatever "god" or lack thereof of your choosing.

35 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

Do you really think that because sexual discrimination is a criminal offense or a violation of the CoC, people would not do it? I find the other CoC the Ruby dev posted far better, because it does explicitly mention that sexual discrimination (among other bad things) is not allowed.

Ok, so you're saying that it being illegal or a violation of the CoC won't solve the problem. What in your opinion would then? The fact that you say that it being illegal isn't enough so that means that fines are out as an option which only leaves prison or capital punishment as forms of recourse, so which do you would pick?

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34 minutes ago, MyInnerFred said:

People who refuse to be tolerant should not be tolerated is essentially fighting intolerance with intolerance. I don't find that to be the most efficient way to fight intolerance. You are responsible for your own views on tolerance and intolerance, you are not responsible for other people's personal views on what they are tolerant or intolerant of. 

Being intolerant in your own head is functionally identical to being tolerant, that's not what I'm referring to. When I say we probably shouldn't tolerate the intolerant I'm referring to people who are actively intolerant and would try and force others out of the group if left unchecked. I can't think of any way of solving that situation that doesn't involve kicking the actively intolerant person out.

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-Lenovo Thinkpad X220 - [8/10]

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A durable and reliable machine that is relatively lightweight, has all the hardware it needs to never feel sluggish and has a great IPS matte screen. Downsides are mostly due to its age, most notably the screen resolution of 1366x768 and usb 2.0 ports.

 

-Apple Macbook (2015) - [Garbage -/10]

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From my perspective, this product has no redeeming factors given its price and the competition. It is underpowered, overpriced, impractical due to its single port and is made redundant even by Apple's own iPad pro line.

 

-OnePlus X - [7/10]

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A good phone for the price. It does everything I (and most people) need without being sluggish and has no particularly bad flaws. The lack of recent software updates and relatively barebones feature kit (most notably the lack of 5GHz wifi, biometric sensors and backlight for the capacitive buttons) prevent it from being exceptional.

 

-Microsoft Surface Book 2 - [Garbage - -/10]

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Overpriced and rushed, offers nothing notable compared to the competition, doesn't come with an adequate charger despite the premium price. Worse than the Macbook for not even offering the small plus sides of having macOS. Buy a Razer Blade if you want high performance in a (relatively) light package.

 

-Intel Core i7 2600/k - [9/10]

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Quite possibly Intel's best product launch ever. It had all the bleeding edge features of the time, it came with a very significant performance improvement over its predecessor and it had a soldered heatspreader, allowing for efficient cooling and great overclocking. Even the "locked" version could be overclocked through the multiplier within (quite reasonable) limits.

 

-Apple iPad Pro - [5/10]

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33 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

Bristol County, MA. We got meth labs, racists, homophobes and no opportunity unless you wanna be a factory worker. Wonderful place, really /s

Time to move

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Just now, MyInnerFred said:

Time to move

Wish I was in a position to, honestly.

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1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

Honestly I think hating isn't any more than a strong opinion. Again if you don't act on that hate then everything is fine. 

The difference is hate is an emotion and opinions are intellectual thoughts.  The interplay between thoughts and emotions creates a correlation that can be caused by either.  Emotions can form opinions and your opinions can create emotional response.  Controlling either has not become a top priority for most people these days.

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10 hours ago, NowakVulpix said:

That's a problem that I personally have with that CoC. It doesn't address sexual discrimination and instead says that we must be "tolerant" of "other views". 

And a bunch of other people refuse to accept a bunch of other stuff that you might agree with.
A view is a view, and as they don't have any power to enforce that by themselves, your refusal to accept somebody saying something stupid doesn't make any sense.

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2 hours ago, NowakVulpix said:

Homophobia is intolerance, yes. A tolerant society should reject intolerance.

As long as it's your belief that is preached, damned if others have a different view

 

Quick random shower though: if no "wrong" is present how do you know what's right and what's wrong?

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Homophobia makes me sick.

Simply put, if you don't like me because I'm into dudes, don't talk to me.

That's what homophobia is, not liking someone because they're gay.

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14 minutes ago, Celli said:

Homophobia makes me sick.

Simply put, if you don't like me because I'm into dudes, don't talk to me.

That's what homophobia is, not liking someone because they're gay.

No, thats not what homophobia is.

 

Homophobia is having an irrational reaction to someone being gay, like beating them and dragging them behind a truck.

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1 minute ago, KarathKasun said:

No, thats not what homophobia is.

 

Homophobia is having a irrational reaction to someone being gay, like beating them and dragging them behind a truck.

That's even worse. 

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2 minutes ago, Celli said:

That's even worse. 

No, that is what homophobia is.  -phobia = irrational fear.

 

I lived through actual homophobia, hearing people say that just not liking someone because they are gay equates to homophobia sickens me.

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Gonna be honest here. I'm not even sure how to respond to this thread anymore.

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1 minute ago, KarathKasun said:

No, that is what homophobia is.  -phobia = irrational fear.

 

I lived through actual homophobia, hearing people say that just not liking someone because they are gay equates to homophobia sickens me.

Oh. I'm sorry.

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7 minutes ago, Celli said:

Oh. I'm sorry.

It just blows me away that words are so misused today, solely for the purpose of creating outrage.

 

Someone decides that they would rather not interact with gay/lesbian people overall, I can understand that.  The gay and lesbian communities are extremely toxic, and their reputation precedes them.  Many of these people just do not want to be involved in their drama and/or politics.  Also, its good to remember that real people are nothing like you see on internet comments pages.

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14 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

No, that is what homophobia is.  -phobia = irrational fear.

 

I lived through actual homophobia, hearing people say that just not liking someone because they are gay equates to homophobia sickens me.

I was just thinking about this the other day.  I imagined some happy go lucky walking down the street whistling their favorite tune and then all of a sudden they stop, break into a sweat, and cower in fear trembling as a gay couple nonchalantly walks by holding hands...

 

While I'm sure that's not how it goes and its much more serious than that... it was kinda funny creating that image in my head.

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6 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

I was just thinking about this the other day.  I imagined some happy go lucky walking down the street whistling their favorite tune and then all of a sudden they stop, break into a sweat, and cower in fear trembling as a gay couple nonchalantly walks by holding hands...

 

While I'm sure that's not how it goes and its much more serious than that... it was kinda funny creating that image in my head.

That is humorous, but the reaction is not far off the mark.  People who are actually homophobic change demeanor drastically if they are around anyone who they know is gay.  Ive seen people actually grab their crucifixes and pray, though this was back in the late 80's/early 90's.

 

Its the irrational fear that drives people to hate some person or thing.

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3 hours ago, Sauron said:

Not quite - there's a difference between thinking that being gay is wrong and hating someone for being gay. You have a right to your viewpoint so long as it's not actively harmful to other people.

How is someone hating someone else, "actively harmful" to them?  I'm not asking if the hate is right or wrong, I'm asking how it causes any harm.  Sounds like 'thought police' to me, judging someone based on their opinions and personal thoughts.

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5baa92f80877f_ThoughtPolice.jpg.dc6f0c172eb5a2e71459e522ae246110.jpg

I despite white supremacist groups like the Dem founded KKK, or black supremacist groups like NBP/BLM or hispanic supremacist groups like La Raza (literally: The Race); nevertheless, I support their rights to hold those views, so long as it doesn't translate into violence.  Just because someone has an opinion that you may disagree with - even to the point of them hating you for it - doesn't automatically make that opinion harmful.

 

Ironic that many of those claiming they want "tolerance" (which usually means acceptance, not tolerance), are typically the most intolerant among us.

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6 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

How is someone hating someone else, "actively harmful" to them?  I'm not asking if the hate is right or wrong, I'm asking how it causes any harm.  Sounds like 'thought police' to me, judging someone based on their opinions and personal thoughts.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I despite white supremacist groups like the Dem founded KKK, or black supremacist groups like NBP/BLM or hispanic supremacist groups like La Raza (literally: The Race); nevertheless, I support their rights to hold those views, so long as it doesn't translate into violence.  Just because someone has an opinion that you may disagree with - even to the point of them hating you for it - doesn't automatically make that opinion harmful.

 

Ironic that many of those claiming they want "tolerance" (which usually means acceptance, not tolerance), are typically the most intolerant among us.

It could be argued that all of the groups you have mentioned support direct calls to violent action, which is illegal.

 

Hatred is one thing, calling for people to do illegal things is another.

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4 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

It could be argued that all of the groups you have mentioned support direct calls to violent action, which is illegal.

Agreed, but I was specifically referring to their beliefs only, not any illegal or violent actions that may result.  There are others who hold to those beliefs who are not violent.  So long as it remains simply their opinion, I will tolerate (not accept) it, because it's their right to hold whatever opinion they want.

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2 hours ago, thedude4bides said:

The difference is hate is an emotion and opinions are intellectual thoughts.  The interplay between thoughts and emotions creates a correlation that can be caused by either.  Emotions can form opinions and your opinions can create emotional response.  Controlling either has not become a top priority for most people these days.

When someone asks you about your opinion on something a possible respond is that you hate it. It is an opinion imo. Anger and rage directed at someone is what I would call emotion. 

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2 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

Agreed, but I was specifically referring to their beliefs only, not any illegal or violent actions that may result.  There are others who hold to those beliefs who are not violent.  So long as it remains simply their opinion, I will tolerate (not accept) it, because it's their right to hold whatever opinion they want.

Right, that distinction is important to be made.  Without physical confrontation, defamation/slander, or calls to violent action they are breaking no law and you cant do anything.

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8 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

Agreed, but I was specifically referring to their beliefs only, not any illegal or violent actions that may result.  There are others who hold to those beliefs who are not violent.  So long as it remains simply their opinion, I will tolerate (not accept) it, because it's their right to hold whatever opinion they want.

I have always thought this was weird logic. So many people think hate always leads to violence. I mean I have hated a specific person in the past but I never went and harmed them. I just avoided them. That's what alot of people do tbh. 

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