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Linux Dev's threaten to pull killswitch over CoC (somewhat clickbaity title)

Message added by colonel_mortis

Please keep in mind that there are lots of different perspectives within our community, and the tech community in general. Just because someone is saying something that you disagree with, does not mean that they are inherently wrong or stupid, just that they are looking at this divisive issue from a different perspective. There are no right or wrong answers to this issue.

 

From our own Community Standards,

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  • Ensure a friendly atmosphere to our visitors and forum members.
  • Encourage the freedom of expression and exchange of information in a mature and responsible manner.
  • "Don't be a dick" - Wil Wheaton.
  • "Be excellent to each other" - Bill and Ted.
  • Remember your audience; both present and future.
12 hours ago, mr moose said:

No, your just trying to defend the most superficial side of an issue.  I really don't know how else too explain this.  It really appears you can't move past the idea that words have specific meanings in science and health.  If you can't see how using such terms in a manipulative and prolonged manor is dangerous (I gave you the evidence) then I am not sure anyone can.  

 

This really isn't just about language, it's about social discourse and the effects it has on society.   Do I need to link you to articles explaining why psychologists change the names of mental disorders too or do you understand that side of it?

So you are saying that because homophobia looks like a word for a mental condition people are going to think it is one and the social pressure will force psychologists to add it to the dsm? I just can't see that happening

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26 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

So you are saying that because homophobia looks like a word for a mental condition people are going to think it is one and the social pressure will force psychologists to add it to the dsm? I just can't see that happening

 

Phobia doesn't "look like a word" for a mental condition, phobia is a word for a mental condition.  And I have already linked you to evidence that it is happening.

 

 

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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I think I can settle this.

 

@spartaman64, @mr moose,

 

Do either you do define Islam as homophobic? How about Catholicism? Judaism?

Ketchup is better than mustard.

GUI is better than Command Line Interface.

Dubs are better than subs

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6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Phobia doesn't "look like a word" for a mental condition, phobia is a word for a mental condition.  And I have already linked you to evidence that it is happening.

I showed you examples of words that already break that like oleophobic. And a few psychologists thinking that it should isn't signs of it already happening it's like people who claim scientists don't believe that climate change is real and then cite a few outlier scientists

3 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

I think I can settle this.

 

@spartaman64, @mr moose,

 

Do either you do define Islam as homophobic? How about Catholicism? Judaism?

Yes but not all followers of the religions are homophobic

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2 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

I think I can settle this.

 

@spartaman64, @mr moose,

 

Do either you do define Islam as homophobic? How about Catholicism? Judaism?

By the psychological definition of the word no, by the colloquial usage yes.  Some people are naturally repulsed by the idea, this is not a phobia,  not going near a house you know gay people live in is a phobia.

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

I showed you examples of words that already break that like oleophobic

Yes but not all followers of the religions are homophobic

The majority demonstrably are. I don't know of a single nation under islamic religious law, that "tolerates" homosexual behavior with anything other than the death penalty. Often by public lynching.

 

My point here is that we must allow religious freedom in a supposedly "free" society. How do we address such beliefs, when certain religions react to such behavior with immediate and unquestioned violence? Which side do we take, if any?

Ketchup is better than mustard.

GUI is better than Command Line Interface.

Dubs are better than subs

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1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

I showed you examples of words that already break that like oleophobic

 

But that is not a mental condition.  It is illogical to point to a chemical trait and make claims about it's relevance to psychology. 

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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1 minute ago, Trik'Stari said:

The majority demonstrably are. I don't know of a single nation under islamic religious law, that "tolerates" homosexual behavior with anything other than the death penalty.

Very few of the Islamic population lives in those countries just like how very few Christians live in countries under Christian law

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1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

Very few of the Islamic population lives in those countries just like how very few Christians live in countries under Christian law

I'd ask you to cite your sources on that one. Pakistan would beg to differ.

 

The majority of islamic peoples, live within nations governed by Islamic law as far as I am aware. Are you suggesting that the majority of people living in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan, are not in fact, followers of Islam?

 

I think that would have a severe impact on the laws of those nations.

Ketchup is better than mustard.

GUI is better than Command Line Interface.

Dubs are better than subs

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Just now, mr moose said:

But that is not a mental condition.  It is illogical to point to a chemical trait and make claims about it's relevance to psychology. 

Exactly phobic doesn't have to be talking about a mental condition

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2 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

I'd ask you to cite your sources on that one. Pakistan would beg to differ.

 

The majority of islamic peoples, live within nations governed by Islamic law as far as I am aware.

Pakistan law is based on British law. Does Sharia law influence some of their laws yes but you can't say Pakistan is under sharia law anymore than the United States is under the 10 commandments

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6 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

Exactly phobic doesn't have to be talking about a mental condition

WTF?  This whole topic centres around a mental condition, that is what all definitions of homophobic are.  They refer to the state of mind of ones response to homosexuality.  If that isn't considered a condition of the mind then I don't know what does.

 

You have been trying to conflate this issue with all sorts of irrelevant things like chemistry and hobbies (audiophile), but the reality is none of that is relevant.  This is a mental condition that has been studied since the late 19th century.  Even the current colloquial definition describes a mental process.

 

EDIT: to be more to the point, if you are not talking about phobia as a mental process then you are not talking about homosexuality at all, which means your entire argument is fluff.

 

 

 

 

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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6 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

Pakistan law is based on British law. Does Sharia law influence some of their laws yes but you can't say Pakistan is under sharia law anymore than the United States is under the 10 commandments

That's not what we are talking about. You have made the claim that the majority of "people who follow the religion of Islam" do not in fact live in countries under the laws of that religion.

 

Either provide proof of your assertion, or acquiesce to the point that the majority of people who follow islam live under the laws of islam, which could be described as homophobic.

 

 

OR.

 

You could admit that it's possible for someone to dislike someone else for their way of life, without taking action upon that belief. For instance, I could have a dislike of lesbians, but still interact with them on a professional level without being unfair to them in a professional manner.

 

Which would be an accurate statement. I do dislike lesbians. That being said, I do not refute their right to exist or their right to live the way they want to. I do my best to treat everyone with a certain level of respect, despite how much I dislike them.

Ketchup is better than mustard.

GUI is better than Command Line Interface.

Dubs are better than subs

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2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

WTF?  This whole topic centres around a mental condition, that is what all definitions of homophobic are.  They refer to the state of mind of ones response to homosexuality.  If that isn't considered a condition of the mind then I don't know what does.

 

You have been trying to conflate this issue with all sorts of irrelevant things like chemistry and hobbies (audiophile), but the reality is none of that is relevant.  This is a mental condition that has been studied since the late 19th century.  Even the current colloquial definition describes a mental process.

 

Quote

ho·mo·pho·bi·a

ˌhōməˈfōbēə/

noun

noun: homophobia

dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.

Quote

a·rach·no·pho·bi·a

əˌraknəˈfōbēə/

noun

noun: arachnophobia

extreme or irrational fear of spiders.

There's a difference

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3 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

There's a difference

Can you make an irrefutable link between homophobia and negative actions against people "suffering" from it, and negative actions towards those who could be described as "homosexual"?

 

I very much doubt it. Some of us (although I wouldn't call myself homophobic) are capable of interacting on a professional level with those we dislike.

Ketchup is better than mustard.

GUI is better than Command Line Interface.

Dubs are better than subs

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16 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

That's not what we are talking about. You have made the claim that the majority of "people who follow the religion of Islam" do not in fact live in countries under the laws of that religion.

 

Either provide proof of your assertion, or acquiesce to the point that the majority of people who follow islam live under the laws of islam, which could be described as homophobic.

 

 

OR.

 

You could admit that it's possible for someone to dislike someone else for their way of life, without taking action upon that belief. For instance, I could have a dislike of lesbians, but still interact with them on a professional level without being unfair to them in a professional manner.

 

Which would be an accurate statement. I do dislike lesbians. That being said, I do not refute their right to exist or their right to live the way they want to. I do my best to treat everyone with a certain level of respect, despite how much I dislike them.

Indonesia Pakistan and India are the 3 countries with the most Muslim population and none of them are under sharia law. And ofc you can not act on it and be professional. Like my parents whose company is like 75% Mexican workers but when I got a Mexican girlfriend they wouldnt have any of it.

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25 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

Indonesia Pakistan and India are the 3 countries with the most Muslim population and none of them are under sharia law. And ofc you can not act on it and be professional. Like my parents whose company is like 75% Mexican workers but when I got a Mexican girlfriend they wouldnt have any of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Pakistan#Legality_of_same-sex_sexual_activity

 

Quote

Pakistani law is a mixture of both Anglo-Saxon colonial law as well as Islamic law

Taken from the same wikipedia article.

 

India is equally egregious in terms of crimes against people who defy religious and social tradition. I'm reminded of a model who married for love, her family disagreed with this marriage. She fled the country with her beloved. Years later, she went back under the pretense of patching up old wounds, and her mother and brothers burnt her alive..

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/indian-woman-burned-alive-by-relatives-in-honour-killing-eight-years-after-eloping-with-lover-a6917156.html

 

These nations are by no means what-so-ever, beacons of civil rights or civil justice. They are the very worst of the worst.

Ketchup is better than mustard.

GUI is better than Command Line Interface.

Dubs are better than subs

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1 hour ago, spartaman64 said:

There's a difference

Yes, we have been over this too many times,  Phobia in psychology is an irrational fear, phobia in laymen's vernacular is a dislike or hatred and phobia in chemistry is an opposing force.  what's your point?

 

Maybe you should address some of your claims which have been demonstrably wrong instead of dancing around the topic.

 

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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The religious talking points can stop there, another divisive topic doesn't need to be added in to the mix and as you should know they aren't actually allowed.

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16 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

I am reading them but you are being confusing. I never made any statement supporting it being added to the dsm nor supporting it being used to mean a mental condition in fact I think I made it clear that im talking about the opposite

You are confused because you do not believe in reality or shared experience based on what you have said about language.  The world is relative in all ways for you.

 

 

This is fine and all, but I do not see this going anywhere because you define reality in an objectively different way.

 

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On 9/28/2018 at 2:46 AM, spartaman64 said:

This is just how language works. It's not static but a evolving thing

Very true.  Doesn’t mean I can’t knock people for conveniently making things mean what they want them to in order to suit themselves, tho...

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On 9/29/2018 at 5:48 PM, Trik'Stari said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Pakistan#Legality_of_same-sex_sexual_activity

 

Taken from the same wikipedia article.

 

India is equally egregious in terms of crimes against people who defy religious and social tradition. I'm reminded of a model who married for love, her family disagreed with this marriage. She fled the country with her beloved. Years later, she went back under the pretense of patching up old wounds, and her mother and brothers burnt her alive..

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/indian-woman-burned-alive-by-relatives-in-honour-killing-eight-years-after-eloping-with-lover-a6917156.html

 

These nations are by no means what-so-ever, beacons of civil rights or civil justice. They are the very worst of the worst.

Yea no kidding.      I've heard some PRETTY DANK stuff from India.   The place is a mixing BOWEL movement in the making.   Some parts are worse then others.  And the sad part is?  Almost all of the time its about money for the parents etc.   

 

 

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At the end of the day I couldn't care less about the skin color or sexual orientation of those that contribute code. I do however want the best available working on any given project. If that happens to be predominantly straight, white males then so be it.

 

To dilute the talent pool for the sake of diversity is retarded on several levels. Instead of crying over superficial nonsense perhaps those whining should instead prove their merit. You don't walk into a job interview demanding they hire you simply because you are of the minority. Your credentials and past work history are far more important.

What does windows 10 and ET have in common?

 

They are both constantly trying to phone home.

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Sooo much hyperbole in this thread, almost like some of you are quite young.  This "CoC (cock..?)", has no place in the real world for the simple fact it attempts to pass it's own definition of some pretty fundamental things, above the laws of everyone involved.   Believe it or not we live in different countries that yes have different laws.   It was written from the perspect that anything not prohibited is somehow not only permitted but _accepted_.   That is 100% bullshit.   There are lots of things we don't need to be told not to do, they are basic human concepts.

 

Do not confuse this "CoC" with -anything- you'd get from HR.  The documents you sign as part of your employment or contract have entirely different intents.  Not all companies for example prohibit relationships between coworkers.   That doesn't mean they encourage unwelcome contact, it means be an adult.  They are also legally required to notify Employees of certain policies.

 

Regarding the topic itself, there is a _LOT_ of disinformation being spread.   The issue is not that code can't be removed, it's that you can't do it retroactively.   The kernel is in git after all so while you can submit change requests to remove it, that code will remain as part of the archive.   The license could also be revoked if the existing GPL v2 were violated (it's not transferable). 

 

tl;dr (and very high level) - You don't own the rights to the code because you downloaded it.  You are given rather extensive permission to do whatever you want but ownership is not magically transferred to you.   That also means you cannot be sued for such use.   See SCO vs. <the world>.

 

 

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